Author Topic: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?  (Read 5804 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jade88

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 221
  • Tommy Points: 20
Once we acquired Thomas and i realized how not only good of a pure scorer he is, but his ability to close out games, i was all in on him. I still am. I simply do not see another 30/6 guy with his shooting splits and 4th quarter scoring, coming through the door. That includes Fultz. I just don't want to give up on a player with that much offensive talent, in an era dominated by offensive guards.


Look i get that he is a defensive liability, i really do. My thing is though, we have all of the assets in the world to put a team around him to cover for it as much as we can. Don't tell me you can't win a title with him as your starting PG, i don't believe that. Curry isn't any good on defense, but they cover up. Thomas may be worse, but we can compensate.


I would be around him with size and length. I think Butler is probably the best guy to put beside him in the backcourt (maybe Klay but he's not available), he's got the length and he's an All-star. Paul George or Gordon Hayward are excellent choices at the SF position, with George being the better option. I think i we have the ability to add Butler and either George or Hayward without giving up IT or Horford. That gives us one hell of a scoring/defending starting lineup, with that [dang] hole at the 4 spot still bothering us.


I'll rest on my dream lineup but it's hard to even think about Fultz when we won 53 games and i know we have the assets to add two amazing compliments to Isaiah and take another big leap forward. If we could add Butler and George together, i don't care how good Fultz becomes because we have a [dang] 30/6 guy at our PG spot.


I just think we're at a point were waiting to develop a Fultz is redundant when we can add impact players to Thomas/Horford. We are all set at the 1 and 5 spots, fill in the holes at 2-4 with  2 All-Stars using Fultz, Brown, and BK 18 to do so. I don't even feel silly writing that, we have the assets and cap space to do this. That is just worlds more attractive to me than a youth movement.


I rambled on a little bit, but the true gist of my thread here is that i think Thomas is an exceptional talent. A truly special basketball player. Can you imagine the damage he could do with two other scorers added to this roster, imagine him with 2 more shot creating dribble pentrators? He would wreak even more havoc.

Anyone else feel this strongly about Thomas being the franchise?

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2017, 12:59:58 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2017, 01:09:48 PM »

Offline jade88

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 221
  • Tommy Points: 20
In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

The problem is that in no way shape or form see Fultz being a transcendent player that carries this team to a championship, nor do i see Brown that way. I see them as good little prospects. Will they ever be able to carry as much of an offensive burden as Thomas? I doubt it.


If i have an A+ scorer, i'm inclined to fill in the pieces not retool. Thomas is so close to Iverson, just a more efficient version. No way i give up on Iverson for Markelle Fultz. Insanity. 

When i have a 30/6 scoring machine with balls like grapefruits in the 4th quarter, why would i hope Brown becomes as good as Paul George? Or Fultz as good as Butler? I'd rather have a 27 year old team with a title window than a youth movement. I'm done watching kids. We have too good of a core and coach to wait imo.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2017, 01:13:30 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

The problem is that in no way shape or form see Fultz being a transcendent player that carries this team to a championship, nor do i see Brown that way. I see them as good little prospects. Will they ever be able to carry as much of an offensive burden as Thomas? I doubt it.


If i have an A+ scorer, i'm inclined to fill in the pieces not retool. Thomas is so close to Iverson, just a more efficient version. No way i give up on Iverson for Markelle Fultz. Insanity.
I'd rather have a guy like Markelle, who may well end up a 25ppg scorer (as he is projected to be), as well as a dynamic young core in Brown and one of Ayton/Porter/Bamba etc. than Jimmy Butler or Paul George.

IT's hip may also permanently alter his game - we never know, and we can't bank on him coming back to full health and to this production.

IT is not the transcendent player to carry a team to a title, just like Allen Iverson never was.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2017, 01:17:10 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

When i have a 30/6 scoring machine with balls like grapefruits in the 4th quarter, why would i hope Brown becomes as good as Paul George? Or Fultz as good as Butler? I'd rather have a 27 year old team with a title window than a youth movement. I'm done watching kids. We have too good of a core and coach to wait imo.
This comparison is nonsensical - Fultz is being compared to players like Harden and Lillard. AKA, players on IT's level or higher.
We can still be a contending team with a young future - you're acting as if there is no middle ground, and it's either we go all in on winning next season or all in on rebuilding. As long as Cleveland, SAS and GSW are still balling like they are, beating them is going to be very difficult. Especially if we gut our core and end up with worse "Big 3's" than they have.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2017, 01:25:00 PM »

Offline jade88

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 221
  • Tommy Points: 20
In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

The problem is that in no way shape or form see Fultz being a transcendent player that carries this team to a championship, nor do i see Brown that way. I see them as good little prospects. Will they ever be able to carry as much of an offensive burden as Thomas? I doubt it.


If i have an A+ scorer, i'm inclined to fill in the pieces not retool. Thomas is so close to Iverson, just a more efficient version. No way i give up on Iverson for Markelle Fultz. Insanity.
I'd rather have a guy like Markelle, who may well end up a 25ppg scorer (as he is projected to be), as well as a dynamic young core in Brown and one of Ayton/Porter/Bamba etc. than Jimmy Butler or Paul George.

IT's hip may also permanently alter his game - we never know, and we can't bank on him coming back to full health and to this production.

IT is not the transcendent player to carry a team to a title, just like Allen Iverson never was.

None of the kids you named will more than likely be able to hold Paul George's jockstrap. I'm not sold on Butler either, but he is a great 2nd banana on offense next to IT4, and he's longer and more athletic than Bradley on defense. He's not gonna guard quick PG's as well as AB, but we need size and athleticism. So in that regard if we got George for less than BK 17, i'd move BK 17 for Butler just to have Butler/George on my team.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2017, 01:30:36 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
I still don't know how you think a team built around IT/Butler/George will beat LBJ/Kyrie/Love, or KD/Curry/Klay/Draymond. Hell even the potential Kawhi/CP3 is far more tantalising than our hypothetical core.
We would have almost no ability to have a decent surrounding group to those 3 due to cap limitations, especially if we max IT, considering we already have Al Horford making major league bucks.
Our team would be very similar to Brooklyn (Boston is in a better position, but still), and it would definitely come back to bite us. Sooner, rather than later.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2017, 01:32:28 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16057
  • Tommy Points: 990
Opposing point guards are going to have field days with him because of his lack of defensive skills.


#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown)
#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2017, 01:39:15 PM »

Offline jade88

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 221
  • Tommy Points: 20
I still don't know how you think a team built around IT/Butler/George will beat LBJ/Kyrie/Love, or KD/Curry/Klay/Draymond. Hell even the potential Kawhi/CP3 is far more tantalising than our hypothetical core.
We would have almost no ability to have a decent surrounding group to those 3 due to cap limitations, especially if we max IT, considering we already have Al Horford making major league bucks.
Our team would be very similar to Brooklyn (Boston is in a better position, but still), and it would definitely come back to bite us. Sooner, rather than later.

I think with IT4/Butler/George/PF/Horford we have a better offense than anybody not named GS. 3 of our guys can attack the basket off the dribble, Cleveland has two. We could get to the FT line like no other team in hoops with this type of dribble penetration. It's and unreal 1-3 and we have the 2-3 to guard Klay and KD. I'd like our chances of winning a title.

There is a reason why David Griffin was afraid we would get both George and Butler, nobody wants to defend that when you already have IT4 flying around all over the court.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2017, 01:39:26 PM »

Offline LilRip

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6857
  • Tommy Points: 391
The OP mentioned having IT/Butler/George/??/Horford all in one team. IMO, if you're fielding a team like that, I think you wouldn't need IT anymore.

If you replace IT with Bradley, who will probably command half the projected salary, and then fill up the 4 (or 5) spot with another 12.5m/yr guy, I'd say that's a more balanced lineup with arguably the leagues best perimeter defense. Butler and George can handle majority of the playmaking duties anyway, as well as Horford.
- LilRip

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2017, 01:40:11 PM »

Offline adam.jones614

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 113
  • Tommy Points: 6
IMO Fultz will be a Harden/Westbrook level scorer with solid defense so no I really don't care to trade him

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2017, 01:43:48 PM »

Offline jade88

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 221
  • Tommy Points: 20
The OP mentioned having IT/Butler/George/??/Horford all in one team. IMO, if you're fielding a team like that, I think you wouldn't need IT anymore.

If you replace IT with Bradley, who will probably command half the projected salary, and then fill up the 4 (or 5) spot with another 12.5m/yr guy, I'd say that's a more balanced lineup with arguably the leagues best perimeter defense. Butler and George can handle majority of the playmaking duties anyway, as well as Horford.

The problem is that i trust Thomas was the ball late in games more than anybody else we would have. He can shoot at a high clip from everywhere on the court, and he's honestly a better dribble perpetrator than George and Butler. I think outside of KD, Thomas is as perfect on offense as any one player. So i wouldn't want to make George or Butler my #1 option over a guy who is just better in the clutch.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2017, 01:45:29 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9666
  • Tommy Points: 325
The OP mentioned having IT/Butler/George/??/Horford all in one team. IMO, if you're fielding a team like that, I think you wouldn't need IT anymore.

If you replace IT with Bradley, who will probably command half the projected salary, and then fill up the 4 (or 5) spot with another 12.5m/yr guy, I'd say that's a more balanced lineup with arguably the leagues best perimeter defense. Butler and George can handle majority of the playmaking duties anyway, as well as Horford.

The problem is that i trust Thomas was the ball late in games more than anybody else we would have. He can shoot at a high clip from everywhere on the court, and he's honestly a better dribble perpetrator than George and Butler. I think outside of KD, Thomas as perfect on offense as any one player. So i wouldn't want to make George or Butler my #1 option over a guy who is just better in the clutch.

I definitely wouldn't want Bradley handling the ball.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2017, 01:45:47 PM »

Offline manl_lui

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6571
  • Tommy Points: 427
i think we can afford to do both, but the decision in my honest opinion is you have to start Fultz

Fultz is 18 and Thomas is 28, even if we manage to give Thomas a max, by the time IT gets to 33, Fultz should be experienced to take over if not before then, assuming his contract would still be relatively small as he will be on his rookie contract for 3 years at least

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2017, 01:47:04 PM »

Offline jade88

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 221
  • Tommy Points: 20
I guess i would have an easier time moving Thomas if i thought we could have somebody who i viewed on the same level offensively. I would want somebody who can shoot every bit as good and dribble penetrate just as good. Not to mention i would want the intangibles to take over.


That's a lot to ask when you already have a guy like that. Thomas just covers every base on offense, i haven't been this happy with a Celtic scorer maybe ever. Love me some Pierce but i'm not sure he was even this good.