Author Topic: Going all in  (Read 8875 times)

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Re: Going all in
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2017, 04:33:33 AM »

Offline CF0022

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Get ready for a crazy offseason because if this is to happen we are going to draft fultz.  fans are going to be really happy.  Then we are going to sign hayward and trade fultz and crowder to chicago and fans are going to poop themselves.

Sounds about right to me and something DA would do.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 04:38:47 AM by CF0022 »

Re: Going all in
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2017, 04:43:26 AM »

Offline kenmaine

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Jimmy Butler superstar is like the "big lie". Repeat it enough and people will believe it.
IMO he's good but not great. Borderline all-star. And inconsistent, which is not the mark of a really great player. Limited offensive skills.
For the asking prices floating around, there has to be someone better.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2017, 04:49:20 AM »

Offline CF0022

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I agree he has some questions.  I was watching him d up IT in the playoffs and he was getting burnt pretty bad. He's on a bad team though and not playing that hard right now. I think he wants out.

I'm not much for conspiracy theories but would make sense of why Ainge declined the pick and Crowder at the deadline though. Maybe Butler knows he is on his way out and the Celtics need to ensure they are getting hayward first.

It does make sense in the now and future sense where we'd have an allstar starting 5 in IT, Butler, HAyward, Horford plus teh 18.  And keep Smart, Jaylen, KO to develop and move AB to the 6th man role though....

It really depends on how good Fultz is too...  Paul George is out there too.  There are other options that might surface as well.  Anthony Davis etc..

That pick has value and the celtics are going to try to maximize it most likely. That's the most likely scenario is Ainge will hold out where we can do better ultimately.

just drafting fultz and continuing to wait is good that way.  making a run at hayward etc without overspending.  But there has to be some end game whether it's anthony davis or something better.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 05:03:08 AM by CF0022 »

Re: Going all in
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2017, 06:04:05 AM »

Offline CF0022

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Ainge's plan has some holes in it that way.  To this point he hasn't been able to find that transcendant player.  Unless Lebron or Curry decide to take a year off they have their teams and guys set up for the next several years. I don't think those teams are unbeatable by any means but it's going to take something like that.

Unless jaylen really develops or Fultz is a guy like that we have IT. We have our guys developing and Brad Stevens.  But its going to take something more to get us into that realm.  Whether its something like this or something better.  Either way we'd have our  young core where we can trade off players for picks and be right back where we started with a young nucleus and picks to spend..

But the way this team competes we aren't going to have high draft picks after next year.  We are going to be a team that is going to have to take a crack at it in some regard.  We can wait until those guys slow down but I'm not seeing that happen any time soon right now.

Otherwise we will be that team always on teh cusp and just winning when lebron decides to take a break which I don't want.

Whether its through free agency or whatever.  The C's have been playing their cards where they will be an attractive destination

Ultimately they have to take a shot somewhere though whether it's with Fultz or something like this or hope they can get Durant the next time around or a guy like Davis.

Durant isn't getting any younger either and his time is now with GS and I don't even think I want him after that. His window will be too short.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 06:28:15 AM by CF0022 »

Re: Going all in
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2017, 06:50:09 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
To this point he hasn't been able to find that transcendant player.

He never got lucky in the lottery until now, either.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2017, 07:03:39 AM »

Offline CF0022

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I agree he has to take a shot somewhere but transcendent is top of the top.

There are basically two players in teh nba right now that are transcendent.  Lebron and Curry.  Durant and Anthony Davis would be close but not necessarily transcendent.

Magic and Bird
jordan
Kobe and Duncan and probably Shaq
Russell and Chamberlain

In the 70's there really weren't any minus probably kareem.  Guys like Havlicek and Dr j were more in that Durant class of player.  The celtics built their team another way.  Kareem was probably the only one.


Re: Going all in
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2017, 07:09:15 AM »

Offline CF0022

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Guys like Barkley, KG, Malone, Pierce etc are close as well.  I don't know if they are transcendant though. Allstar's, superstars even. Maybe transcendent due to circumstance.

That's asking a lot of fultz to be transcendent. It's possible but right now I see a 6'4 damon stoudamire.

A good percentage of those guys who were transcendent were the #1 pick too but some weren't.  It's about 50/50.  kobe, curry, jordan, bird, russell weren't.   duncan, shaq, lebron, magic, chamberlain were.  There have been just as many #1 picks that haven't panned out too.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:16:35 AM by CF0022 »

Re: Going all in
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2017, 07:24:27 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Guys like Barkley, KG, Malone, Pierce etc are close as well.  I don't know if they are transcendant though. Allstar's, superstars even. Maybe transcendent due to circumstance.

That's asking a lot of fultz to be transcendent. It's possible but right now I see a 6'4 damon stoudamire.

A good percentage of those guys who were transcendent were the #1 pick too but some weren't.  It's about 50/50.  kobe, curry, jordan, bird, russell weren't.   duncan, shaq, lebron, magic, chamberlain were.  There have been just as many #1 picks that haven't panned out too.

As an aside, am I crazy if I'd take KG to start a franchise over Curry?

As for a 6'4" Mighty Mouse, I don't see the comparison. Fultz is a better shooter and is able to finish more through contact.


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Re: Going all in
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2017, 07:37:58 AM »

Offline NHCelticsFan

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Ainge has stated numerous times that his goal is to build a long term contender.  Wyc recently said that he doesn't see the team trading the pick because of the advantages to having a top prospect under contract and being able to resign him.  He specifically compared it to trading for a guy who is already making big money and is older.  Less years, and you have to match money meaning you have to package players.

I really don't see the Celtics trading this pick.  This is a golden opportunity for them and you know they see the "youth movement" as one of many possibilities.  Fultz (or whoever) plus Brown, Rozier, Smart, Brooklyn 18.  They aren't selling that future for a short term window.

My $0.02.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2017, 07:41:56 AM »

Offline CF0022

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Guys like Barkley, KG, Malone, Pierce etc are close as well.  I don't know if they are transcendant though. Allstar's, superstars even. Maybe transcendent due to circumstance.

That's asking a lot of fultz to be transcendent. It's possible but right now I see a 6'4 damon stoudamire.

A good percentage of those guys who were transcendent were the #1 pick too but some weren't.  It's about 50/50.  kobe, curry, jordan, bird, russell weren't.   duncan, shaq, lebron, magic, chamberlain were.  There have been just as many #1 picks that haven't panned out too.

As an aside, am I crazy if I'd take KG to start a franchise over Curry?

As for a 6'4" Mighty Mouse, I don't see the comparison. Fultz is a better shooter and is able to finish more through contact.

no i dont think you are crazy. Steph is transcendant though.  Circumstance has a lot to do with it, state of the nba and style and everything. KG was not as lucky.  But even Durant once he's  done in GS he is more a sidekick to Curry there anyways. Shawn Kemp etc.  Some players are just better.  Having the best teams has something to do with it but players also flock to the best players.  Why it's 50/50.  Some guys are overrated.  Some are underrated and less fortunate.

KG wasn't even the top pick in the draft.  That's my point though is just because Fultz is the #1 pick doesn't really mean much.  Having a team around him and him being able to thrive is what it is.  Talent has a lot to do with that but it's a combination of things.

Some players are transcendent just because they are that good though.  We are seeing that in ways with Curry and Lebron.  Russell and Chamberlain was the same thing.  Bird and Magic etc. Why those players are considered transcendent.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2017, 07:47:01 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Guys like Barkley, KG, Malone, Pierce etc are close as well.  I don't know if they are transcendant though. Allstar's, superstars even. Maybe transcendent due to circumstance.

That's asking a lot of fultz to be transcendent. It's possible but right now I see a 6'4 damon stoudamire.

A good percentage of those guys who were transcendent were the #1 pick too but some weren't.  It's about 50/50.  kobe, curry, jordan, bird, russell weren't.   duncan, shaq, lebron, magic, chamberlain were.  There have been just as many #1 picks that haven't panned out too.

As an aside, am I crazy if I'd take KG to start a franchise over Curry?

As for a 6'4" Mighty Mouse, I don't see the comparison. Fultz is a better shooter and is able to finish more through contact.

No, you're not. Curry strive on a system that benefits him along with right supporting cast. Put him on the Kings or Nets roster and his impact will greatly diminish due to his limitations.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2017, 07:49:24 AM »

Offline CF0022

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KG was a great great player.  He nevr had Shaq like Kobe did.  Kobe was transcendent though.  Was KG as good as Kobe? I don't know.  I think KG is underrated there... I still think Kobe was really good though. Bill Russell same thing compared to a guy like Chamberlain. Both transcendent.

Olajuwan, Drexler, barkley.  Were these guys as good as Jordan though?  JOrdan lost to bird year in and year out when the celtics had a much better team so it's relative.  Were Olajuwan and those guys as good as jordan though? I dont know.  I think jordan had a step on them.  SAme with Bird had a step on gu ys like dominique. It's tough to say.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 07:55:21 AM »

Offline CF0022

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Curry's impact on the game has been more transformative than KG.  Why i consider him transcendant.  Kobe.  JOrdan. Bird, Magic.  Those guys were on another level of s uperstar in ways.  Even Lebron is.  I love KG but his impact was not the same.  Some of that is definately circumstance. Some of it isn't.

Point being is asking Fultz to be that though is asking quite a bit right now. Definately possible but it's asking a lot.

Curry not many people thought he'd be what he is but he's that so I'm not saying Fultz can't be that.

Curry lit up the college ranks at davidson and was all over espn and people still passed on him.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 08:01:47 AM by CF0022 »

Re: Going all in
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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First off you might not have to trade Fultz to get Butler. Butler has two years left on his deal, a package built around the 2018 nets pick and other non Fultz assets may be enough. You could also try George. He has only one year left so he could probably be had even cheaper (and I think is a better player). I know people are concerned about his Laker talk but if he came in and make a Finals run I doubt he bolts. We could also still offer him more money.

Bottom line I'm not giving up the #1 pick for Butler or George, the 2017 nets pick became untouchable (for those guys) after the lottery. Al indications are the front office feels the same way. Listen Fultz may never be as good as Butler, but in making value decisions you have to factor in 2 things. 1) He may end up BETTER. He has a higher upside then Butler, he could be a Top ten NBA player one day. That's upside is worth something. 2) He is under team control for essentially 8+ years. That is worth ALOT in todays NBA, even if he only reaches 80% butler.

Re: Going all in
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 08:06:37 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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I agree he has to take a shot somewhere but transcendent is top of the top.

There are basically two players in teh nba right now that are transcendent.  Lebron and Curry.  Durant and Anthony Davis would be close but not necessarily transcendent.

Magic and Bird
jordan
Kobe and Duncan and probably Shaq
Russell and Chamberlain

In the 70's there really weren't any minus probably kareem.  Guys like Havlicek and Dr j were more in that Durant class of player.  The celtics built their team another way.  Kareem was probably the only one.
Kawhi Leonard takes a backseat to no one, IMO. His dominance on both ends of the court is unparalleled in the league right now.

If Anthony Davis isn't transcendent, he's in the ball park.