Author Topic: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)  (Read 9474 times)

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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2017, 02:43:25 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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That strikes me as a false dichotomy.  Why wouldn't you:  Draft Fultz and sign Hayward (a vet who can score 25 ppg)?
Is this what folks around here think of Hayward? No wonder everyone has an unreasonable fixation on acquiring him.

Hayward averaged 22 ppg this season, far and away his best. For his seven-season career, he's averaged 18 pp36 (20 over his last three seasons). All this on a Utah roster where he's had to "share" the scoring burden with the likes of George Hill, Derrick Favors, and Rodney Hood.

He's a decent piece, but he's not it. And you're definitely not getting a 25 ppg scorer, even if he's not playing next to Isaiah Thomas.

My bad.  I lazily threw the quote back.  Technically, he would be "a vet who can score 21.9 ppg".

Keep in mind, of course, that Utah plays at THE slowest pace in the NBA.  Pace-adjusted to league average, that would correspond to about 22.9 ppg (assuming same minutes).

Interestingly, Hayward scored 24.1 ppg during these playoffs.

Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2017, 02:49:14 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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That strikes me as a false dichotomy.  Why wouldn't you:  Draft Fultz and sign Hayward (a vet who can score 25 ppg)?
Is this what folks around here think of Hayward? No wonder everyone has an unreasonable fixation on acquiring him.

Hayward averaged 22 ppg this season, far and away his best. For his seven-season career, he's averaged 18 pp36 (20 over his last three seasons). All this on a Utah roster where he's had to "share" the scoring burden with the likes of George Hill, Derrick Favors, and Rodney Hood.

He's a decent piece, but he's not it. And you're definitely not getting a 25 ppg scorer, even if he's not playing next to Isaiah Thomas.

hhmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
I know this is not a thread about Howard, but I wonder to what extent we're suffering from an "other coast syndrome" (where we just don't see him play enough) and unrealistic expectation.

Hayward is, no doubt, a fundamentally sound player. I'm not sure he's all that dominant a scorer, and he's had a problem staying on the court (has played more than 77 games just once in seven seasons). I'm sure he'll be getting the max (because everyone seems to these days), but I'm definitely prepared to question whether that's particularly smart.
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2017, 02:51:20 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2017, 03:16:50 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Ive heard that Harry Giles is one of the stupidest basketball players of all time.

Supposedly the reason he couldnt get on the court at duke was because he didnt grasp their defense AT ALL.
i would really like to see the source and evidence of this please. thanks in advance.
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2017, 03:25:05 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

ha, ha, ha. koz with a sense of humor? will wonders never cease.  ;)

good one koz.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2017, 03:36:54 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Ive heard that Harry Giles is one of the stupidest basketball players of all time.

Supposedly the reason he couldnt get on the court at duke was because he didnt grasp their defense AT ALL.
i would really like to see the source and evidence of this please. thanks in advance.
Speaking to guys in recruiting companies and in the AAU circuits. Its a lot of heresay but it seems to be backed up on the court. From what I saw of him he was constantly making low IQ plays.

Edit: Draftexpress doesn't make as big a deal of his stupidity as ive heard but this quote from their write up on him gives a similar idea:

"His timing, fundamentals, discipline, and understanding of the nuances of help-side defense are very much a work in progress, as he often looks a step behind the action. He takes bad angles on the pick and roll, shows poor awareness off the ball, is very handsy on the perimeter" - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Harry-Giles-7236/ ©DraftExpress
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:42:28 PM by Ilikesports17 »
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2017, 03:39:24 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

Speaking of quibbling, don't you mean Hayward?

Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2017, 03:42:29 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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Wow Ainge really shut down Jackie Mac's rumor of IT being shopped for a lottery pick last offseason.
Ainge: "Why would I trade away our best player for a lottery pick when we already have 8 picks AND we are trying to sign Kevin Durant and Al Horford?

It makes zero sense.
He seemed pretty angry about that one. I wonder how much of this is protecting his relationship with Isaiah and acting slighty upset about such a rumor.

Good talk, TP for the notification it was out...

Fake news is rampant in the sports media, because sources aren't identified. It's easy for a writer to create something to have impact and get attention. On the other hand, Danny is entitled to some privacy--especially in potential deals that don't happen. There are players involved who have feelings and loyalties. Players are mentioned in deals all the time that don't happen. You have to deny this kind of stuff.

I think it's clear this is the year Ainge has to get off the pot and get this team to the next level.
He can start by drafting Fultz. I would forget about the rest of the draft. Focus next on FAs and trades. There are a lot of mediocre players, mainly up front, that need to be unloaded or traded. I think IT might be expendable if they can sign another scorer like Hayward. They also need one or two bigs who can bang. Take the pressure off Horford up front.

It's asinine to call something "fake news" because it is based on anonymous sourcing.  A significant amount of investigative journalism, sports or otherwise, relies on unnamed sources. This does not in anyway mean that it is not true or "fake" as you call it. Journalists could not function if all their sources had to be named, and no one would talk to them because of the potential exposure they would face.  Thinking this way is just a fundamental misunderstand of how a free press works. 

You're also accusing MacMullin of making this all up, which is extremely offensive to her.  Fabricating stories is basically the worst thing you can do in journalism and she has a pretty stellar record that doesn't warrant that kind of slander.

Now that being said, what is of utmost importance is for a journalist to confirm the veracity of the information they are being given and that the source of that info is reliable and trustworthy. Here's where I think Jackie Mac fails.  She's probably reporting from a single source without independent verification, which is problematic.  This scenario makes the journalist look like a tool of the source.  This is how Phil Jackson and Charley Rosen function.  Rosen is Phil's mouthpiece. That's not reporting, that's PR. Jackie falls into that sometimes.

One of three things is true:

1) Jackie Mac knowingly passed along a fake rumor.
2) Jackie Mac unknowingly passed along a fake rumor that she could have deduced was fake if she thought about it for more than 10 seconds.
3) Jackie Max outright lied on her own.


None of them are good, but it's one of those three.  If that's offensive to her, she needs to do her job better.

With "off-the-record" sources, major news organizations require multiple corroborations.  There's no way she got multiple corroborations, nor attempted to.

or...
4) Danny just lied to keep IT happy.
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2017, 03:43:00 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

Speaking of quibbling, don't you mean Hayward?
No. Josh Howard is a fine talent even at the ripe age of 37 :P
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2017, 03:45:51 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Ive heard that Harry Giles is one of the stupidest basketball players of all time.

Supposedly the reason he couldnt get on the court at duke was because he didnt grasp their defense AT ALL.
i would really like to see the source and evidence of this please. thanks in advance.
Speaking to guys in recruiting companies and in the AAU circuits. Its a lot of heresay but it seems to be backed up on the court. From what I saw of him he was constantly making low IQ plays.

Edit: Draftexpress doesn't make as big a deal of his stupidity as ive heard but this quote from their write up on him gives a similar idea:

"His timing, fundamentals, discipline, and understanding of the nuances of help-side defense are very much a work in progress, as he often looks a step behind the action. He takes bad angles on the pick and roll, shows poor awareness off the ball, is very handsy on the perimeter" - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Harry-Giles-7236/ ©DraftExpress

That sounds Fab Melo like.

Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2017, 03:49:08 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

Ha ha!

Another false dichotomy!

Because, no, there is no reason we can't draft Fultz, sign Hayward and re-sign Thomas.

The 'dichotomy' or trade-off with Thomas is against neither Fultz nor Hayward.  It is really between Thomas, Avery, Marcus and the luxury tax threshold.

No rule prevents us from signing all of them.  But it will cost.   And the reality is that we likely won't retain all three. 

But it seems to me if you are choosing who to keep between IT, AB & MS, letting go of the guy who in the last two seasons racked up more total Win Shares than the other two combined for their entire careers wouldn't be the smartest thing.   But we'll just have to see how it all plays out.
 
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2017, 03:50:40 PM »

Offline Redz

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

Speaking of quibbling, don't you mean Hayward?
No. Josh Howard is a fine talent even at the ripe age of 37 :P

Reunite the Fab 5?
Yup

Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #72 on: May 25, 2017, 03:52:13 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Ive heard that Harry Giles is one of the stupidest basketball players of all time.

Supposedly the reason he couldnt get on the court at duke was because he didnt grasp their defense AT ALL.
i would really like to see the source and evidence of this please. thanks in advance.
Speaking to guys in recruiting companies and in the AAU circuits. Its a lot of heresay but it seems to be backed up on the court. From what I saw of him he was constantly making low IQ plays.

Edit: Draftexpress doesn't make as big a deal of his stupidity as ive heard but this quote from their write up on him gives a similar idea:

"His timing, fundamentals, discipline, and understanding of the nuances of help-side defense are very much a work in progress, as he often looks a step behind the action. He takes bad angles on the pick and roll, shows poor awareness off the ball, is very handsy on the perimeter" - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Harry-Giles-7236/ ©DraftExpress

That sounds Fab Melo like.
Kevin OConner, on the other hand, praised his bbiq as "elite" so it's not the consensus opinion.

This year I spent a lot of time talking to college coaches and AAU coaches and administrators and I'd always ask them their opinions on Giles (keep in mind healthy Harry Giles was consensus #1 and a PERFECT fit for us.

I got a lot of shrugs and "what a shames" and "if he gets that explosiveness back" responses but I also got a surprising number of people saying it wasn't rust or explosion but just stupidity keeping Giles off the floor.

I don't mean to pretend to be an insider, but I thought it was worth sharing that tidbit.
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Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #73 on: May 25, 2017, 04:09:33 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

Ha ha!

Another false dichotomy!

Because, no, there is no reason we can't draft Fultz, sign Hayward and re-sign Thomas.

The 'dichotomy' or trade-off with Thomas is against neither Fultz nor Hayward.  It is really between Thomas, Avery, Marcus and the luxury tax threshold.

No rule prevents us from signing all of them.  But it will cost.   And the reality is that we likely won't retain all three. 

But it seems to me if you are choosing who to keep between IT, AB & MS, letting go of the guy who in the last two seasons racked up more total Win Shares than the other two combined for their entire careers wouldn't be the smartest thing.   But we'll just have to see how it all plays out.
There is a reason successful teams rarely shell out for multiple max players that are essentially a version of the same guy with slight variation. But, of course, it's not a "rule".
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Ainge on Toucher & Rich (draft workouts)
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2017, 04:10:20 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Are we done quibbling now?  Because this really has nothing to do with the point of my comment.
Come on, man. You know me :)

I'm never quite done quibbling.

But the real answer to your question is, you can of course add Fultz and sign Howard, but this means you're preparing to let Thomas go next season.

Speaking of quibbling, don't you mean Hayward?
No. Josh Howard is a fine talent even at the ripe age of 37 :P

Reunite the Fab 5?
Let's do it. You know you want to.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."