Author Topic: Is system ball obsolete?  (Read 2136 times)

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Is system ball obsolete?
« on: May 25, 2017, 08:35:20 AM »

Offline __ramonezy__

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After watching the fluidity with which our offense flowed these last two games, I'm seriously wondering if we need any more "stars" to become legitimate contenders. Even Ty Lue mentioned the complexity of guarding a team with talented players and no focal point... AKA system basketball.

Looking back at the true basketball dynasties of recent memory, none were built on solely individual talent but were heavily hinged on systems producing shots. Looking back at the Lakers with the triangle and the Spurs and how  they have always played well above their talent level... (by contrast we're talking about trading IT, imagine if our starting PG was Derek Fisher) Why is our blueprint for competing the Super Team model as opposed to the system model. Why can't we inject IT into Tuesday style of play, instead of having him be a ball dominant PG.

My dream offseason  is to add Fultz, add a 2nd tier FA PF like JaMycal Green and sign back our major free agents and invest in the system instead of banking on pure star power.

It's unfortunate that Kawhi went down game 1 because I was pulling for the Spurs upset. But it begs the question, In this era, doea system ball even matter?


Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2017, 08:50:48 AM »

Offline MBunge

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I think Boston has proved you can compete offensively as a system team.  The question is defense.  Stevens and his staff need to examine our entire defensive philosophy.  We're an above average defense when we give effort and do some things very well but there's another level of defense we need to get to.  It may be scheme changes.  It may be personnel changes.  But we've got to fix the fundamental flaws we've seen exposed all year long.

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Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2017, 09:27:09 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Because stars can play in a system as well. The Lakers aren't winning with a triangle without Shaq and Kobe. The Spurs aren't winning without their HoF trio or their twin towers. A great system makes a team competitive. Great players makes a contender.
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Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2017, 09:37:25 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Systems work until they run into a defense locking down on it.


Then you need an offensive star (or more) who can break from part of the system at times to make things happen. 


That's what happened with the Bulls or the Spurs.   Those were heavy system teams that had the star players buy in and could do the extra when needed.




So if we like the system the Celtics have now, how much better can it be when they add another 2 offensive threats to it?

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2017, 09:39:07 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Looking back at the true basketball dynasties of recent memory, none were built on solely individual talent but were heavily hinged on systems producing shots. Looking back at the Lakers with the triangle and the Spurs and how  they have always played well above their talent level...
Of course, the Lakers and Spurs also had stars like Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Shaq, Kobe, Pau Gaosl, and Lamar Odom.

A good system goes a long way but sometimes you just need someone who can go 9/10 in the third quarter of a tight game just because he can't miss. Ideally, a team would have both.
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Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2017, 10:10:07 AM »

Offline Ed Hollison

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The current ECF series is pretty revealing when it comes to this. The Celtics have been able to compete in games 3 and 4 based off of ball movement and passing on offense and communication and rotations on defense.

The Cavs' answer for this was essentially hero ball: give it to Irving and get the **** out of the way. And you know what? When you've got Kyrie Irving and Lebron James, you can get away with that.

One thing I'm confident of: If you're going to pay a superstar but your coach is Brad Stevens, guys like Al Horford and Gordon Hayward, who do a lot of good things within the framework of a system (without relying on hero ball), are a good place to start.
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Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2017, 11:07:17 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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The current ECF series is pretty revealing when it comes to this. The Celtics have been able to compete in games 3 and 4 based off of ball movement and passing on offense and communication and rotations on defense.

The Cavs' answer for this was essentially hero ball: give it to Irving and get the **** out of the way. And you know what? When you've got Kyrie Irving and Lebron James, you can get away with that.

One thing I'm confident of: If you're going to pay a superstar but your coach is Brad Stevens, guys like Al Horford and Gordon Hayward, who do a lot of good things within the framework of a system (without relying on hero ball), are a good place to start.
I think the current ECF proves the opposite of the OP's assertion, namely, that system ball alone cannot bring you a championship.  You still need players who can consistently put the ball in the hole.

Then there's defense issue as well mentioned by MBunge.  They play in a system of switching, but you still need size, athleticism and skill to be a great defender.

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2017, 12:14:24 PM »

Offline action781

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I think the OP is right.  It is easier to defend a team when you know exactly what they are going to do every time down the floor (iso or p&r with their best player).  When an opposing team's offense has been limited down to 1 or 2 main plays, then opposing teams pretty much know all of the potential reads the playmaker can make so can pre-plan their defensive rotations accordingly and know which passing lanes can be jumped.  In the era of big data, teams also find out which option yields least efficiency and force that one.  Defenses also can easily strategize ways to make those plays difficult to initiate off the bat.  I think the element of unpredictability is an undervalued one in the NBA.  Defensive players having to figure out defensive rotations on the fly in split seconds can lead to easy breakdowns.  It's what 80s basketball was like despite more physical defense being allowed.

But if the brightest minds in basketball are still employing them, I guess there's maybe something I'm missing.

I also agree that it's probably not wise to try to combat superstar-ball with superstar-ball with lesser superstars.  If you're going up against better players, you can't try to beat them with the same style of basketball, you've gotta try *something* different.
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Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2017, 12:20:29 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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You need great talent with a system that allows them to excel. False dichotomy.

System ball is why teams went on 20+ runs against us. When they know your system, they jump the passing lanes. When the system is failing, you need players to step up to switch things up.

We should also not confuse system ball with not having a player who can take over. When games get physical in the playoffs and you are playing elite teams, teams lean more on their superstars. That doesn't mean that they don't have a system.

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2017, 12:21:58 PM »

Offline footey

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I agree with OP in spirit. Thing is, Gordon Hayward is quintessential "system player". He thrives playing system ball. He enhances it.

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2017, 12:22:23 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Because stars can play in a system as well. The Lakers aren't winning with a triangle without Shaq and Kobe. The Spurs aren't winning without their HoF trio or their twin towers. A great system makes a team competitive. Great players makes a contender.
Yeah, it is ironic that the OP mentions teams with multiple HOF players on the roster. Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan -- these are not just HOF players. These are guys who at points in their careers were top 2 players in the world.

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2017, 12:23:46 PM »

Offline footey

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What makes Lebron better than Kobe (and, in certain respects, Jordan) is that he has super star, one on one talent, and also plays super star system ball. You can (try to) shut down him offensively, but he can find team mates so well if you do. 

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2017, 01:17:18 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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The Warriors play a system. It's just that they have some of the best shooters in the league in the system so it works. The Celtics get open shots that they can't make often enough for the system to be as effective.

Also, does the pick and roll count as a "system"? Because it's a play every team runs and every team knows in theory how to defend. However if it's run better than you can defend it you can't stop it. So I guess my point is talent and versatility of talent matters. Is Hayward a one-on-one threat like Carmelo is? No, but calling him a "system" player is a little simplistic.

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2017, 01:27:44 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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Systems are what win in the NBA. Warriors, Cavs are both very system based and they're the last two defending champions. The Celtics in 2008 are a perfect example of how system is so important.

Look at the Spurs system, playoffs for twenty straight years. Did they have super talent? Of course. Would Tim Duncan be as good as he was in a Suns uniform or a Nets jersey? Most likely, but because of the system he played in that Spurs team was so good and Tim Duncan became the best (or one of the best) PF of all time.

We have a fantastic system that is lacking the star power that other posters have mentioned. You can only go so far with one superstar in a poor system (Paul George, Boogie, Anthony Davis etc...). You need the system to excel in order to win in the NBA.

Take system all day.

Re: Is system ball obsolete?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2017, 02:02:45 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Systems are what win in the NBA. Warriors, Cavs are both very system based and they're the last two defending champions. The Celtics in 2008 are a perfect example of how system is so important.

Look at the Spurs system, playoffs for twenty straight years. Did they have super talent? Of course. Would Tim Duncan be as good as he was in a Suns uniform or a Nets jersey? Most likely, but because of the system he played in that Spurs team was so good and Tim Duncan became the best (or one of the best) PF of all time.

We have a fantastic system that is lacking the star power that other posters have mentioned. You can only go so far with one superstar in a poor system (Paul George, Boogie, Anthony Davis etc...). You need the system to excel in order to win in the NBA.

Take system all day.

With all due respect to a fellow PJ fan, I think you have it a little backward. The Spurs have always changed their system based on the talent they have. They've changed their system multiple times throughout the Duncan era and now. They have a consistent organization, training, methods, coaches, etc., but the system on the floor has been different.

Of course, it helps that Duncan was so great he could play any system. Their first title he was a PF next to Robinson and they dominated inside. Their last title he was a C playing a more European style of constant ball movement.

Sticking rigidly to one system is what college coaches do, because the talent level is lower and you can succeed if the system is run well. It's why Pitino (well among other issues) failed so miserably with the Celtics.