Author Topic: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats  (Read 3642 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2017, 04:47:46 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
TankCity.

Do you believe Isaiah Thomas has defended better than Marcus Smart in the playoffs this year?

thats right. You dont. Because that would be a beyond ridiculous assertion.

Of course I don't. Do you take me for an imbecile? I just knew JPotter would blow up like he usually does at the mention of Smart. The guy is a baby.

Anyways, we haven't been good at D since Thomas has been injured. I think the team as a whole needs to get better at D. I hope my point makes sense now.
Seeing that you have no point other than to troll people -- no, it still doesn't.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2017, 04:48:45 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
Who cares if we're hiding IT?  GS, Portland, Houston, CLE, etc. all do the same thing.  What else would Marcus Smart be doing on the court if not defending?  In crunch time, LeBron defends everyone -- dude is allowing Kyrie and Love to hide while also making up for JR Smith's BBIQ, which may be the lowest in the league.  He's next-level dumb (see AB's game winning 3).

Two-way players are extremely difficult to come by, and in isolation, one is not nearly enough to win a chip.  We should be building around IT with youth that will ultimately supplant him, continuing to keep us relevant in the near future.  Otherwise, you're trading IT, Horford, and AB.  I don't see Ainge blowing it up like that.

Note: This is a pro-IT thread created by a user with the name "tankcity!"  If he sees the merit in keeping IT, everyone should.    :D
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2017, 04:50:41 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Who cares if we're hiding IT?  GS, Portland, Houston, CLE, etc. all do the same thing.
You're not going to be able to hide him 100%. So you need to care about how much the relative damage is when he's exposed.


He's next-level dumb (see AB's game winning 3).
I saw it. Bradley was Shumpert's assignment.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2017, 04:53:14 PM »

Offline Billz401

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1388
  • Tommy Points: 101
  • B's Up
Honestly I think our on ball defense has been pretty good minus last night when AB and rozier couldn't stay in front of Kyrie in the 3rd. It's our off ball defense and help defense that makes me cringe at times.. For example Crowder has played pretty good on ball defense against LeBron this series, but as soon as they PnR and he gets switched onto another guy he doesn't understand that he's not guarding LeBron anymore. He will leave guys wide open to play free safety on LeBron or even just straight up double him just like that game tying 3 by JR Smith game 3.
Another issue is our bigs defense on love where they will play off him and focus too much on LeBron. Help def from our bigs is fine and all but not when you're on Love, He needs your undivided attention or he will leak out and get wide open 3s all game. That might just be a gameplan issue tho, I understand trying to take LeBron out of it and force others to make shots but not when kyrie and love are the others. We need to have guys dedicated to covering those 3 and then have Thompson's man help and force the other guard to make shots whether that's JR or shumpert or dwill.
If our gameplan is to cheat off of love a bit then we need guys who can get back in time like Crowder smart or jaylen even jerebko. Because horford and KO aren't getting back in time and the off chance they do he knows they aren't disciplined enough and does the slightest pump fake and our guys are in the popcorn popper as Max likes to say. Love has been absolutely killing it from deep
everyone got so sensitive after 9-11... thanks alot bin laden

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2017, 04:54:04 PM »

Offline tankcity!

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1903
  • Tommy Points: 129
TankCity.

Do you believe Isaiah Thomas has defended better than Marcus Smart in the playoffs this year?

thats right. You dont. Because that would be a beyond ridiculous assertion.

Of course I don't. Do you take me for an imbecile? I just knew JPotter would blow up like he usually does at the mention of Smart. The guy is a baby.

Anyways, we haven't been good at D since Thomas has been injured. I think the team as a whole needs to get better at D. I hope my point makes sense now.
Seeing that you have no point other than to troll people -- no, it still doesn't.

Are you being serious? What is your problem? You're such a rude poster. First, you are one of the most boring posters on here. We get it, you're miserable. The Celtics are way better than you had expected they would be after the KG trade. I mean there are so many things you are consistently wrong about it's crazy. So stop trying to start stuff on a board for no reason.

I'm not a troll. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO PLAY D WITHOUT IT.




Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2017, 04:58:23 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8595
  • Tommy Points: 842
The main point I was trying to make is that Thomas isn't as bad on D as thinks. Our defense was crushed yesterday. JPotter could no longer whine about Thomas's D. It's all good. I understand people are sensitive when it comes to calling out Smart. But it's okay. You don't need to be a baby. Just look at the scoreboard without Thomas. Still can't play D. So let's ignore reality and pretend we have good defenders.
I took your advice.
With Isaiah: 123.5 points against per game
Without Isaiah: 110 point per game.
Cavs against Toronto: 116.25 points per game
Cavs against Indiana: 113.25 points per game

Scoreboard tells me that without Isaiah weve defended better than anyone else in the playoffs and with Thomas weve been the worst.

break it down to home and away and it only gets worse

On the road, Cleveland was averaging just 112.25 points per game prior to playing us
They averaged 123.5 ppg against Cs with Isaiah

At home, Cleveland was averaging  116.75 points a game
Theyve averaged just 110 against Cs sans Isaiah.

So you are correct. A quick look at the scoreboard is rather informative.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2017, 05:01:42 PM »

Offline tankcity!

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1903
  • Tommy Points: 129
The main point I was trying to make is that Thomas isn't as bad on D as thinks. Our defense was crushed yesterday. JPotter could no longer whine about Thomas's D. It's all good. I understand people are sensitive when it comes to calling out Smart. But it's okay. You don't need to be a baby. Just look at the scoreboard without Thomas. Still can't play D. So let's ignore reality and pretend we have good defenders.
I took your advice.
With Isaiah: 123.5 points against per game
Without Isaiah: 110 point per game.
Cavs against Toronto: 116.25 points per game
Cavs against Indiana: 113.25 points per game

Scoreboard tells me that without Isaiah weve defended better than anyone else in the playoffs and with Thomas weve been the worst.

break it down to home and away and it only gets worse

On the road, Cleveland was averaging just 112.25 points per game prior to playing us
They averaged 123.5 ppg against Cs with Isaiah

At home, Cleveland was averaging  116.75 points a game
Theyve averaged just 110 against Cs sans Isaiah.

So you are correct. A quick look at the scoreboard is rather informative.

Wow good to know. Well I guess this thread is pointless.

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2017, 05:02:37 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
Who cares if we're hiding IT?  GS, Portland, Houston, CLE, etc. all do the same thing.
You're not going to be able to hide him 100%. So you need to care about how much the relative damage is when he's exposed.


He's next-level dumb (see AB's game winning 3).
I saw it. Bradley was Shumpert's assignment.

I don't know how you assess the degree one is a defensive liability, but I assure you those other guys suck.  The real issue is lack of a frontcourt.  Kyrie is only going to be slowed down, but the main issue was complete lack of rim protection imo.

On the final play,. Bradley was JR's assignment from the start.  Crowder made a cut and for some special reason, he followed Crowder alongside Shumpert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxXnPdSN1T0
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 05:26:50 PM by tarheelsxxiii »
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2017, 05:02:50 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
TankCity.

Do you believe Isaiah Thomas has defended better than Marcus Smart in the playoffs this year?

thats right. You dont. Because that would be a beyond ridiculous assertion.

Of course I don't. Do you take me for an imbecile? I just knew JPotter would blow up like he usually does at the mention of Smart. The guy is a baby.

Anyways, we haven't been good at D since Thomas has been injured. I think the team as a whole needs to get better at D. I hope my point makes sense now.
Seeing that you have no point other than to troll people -- no, it still doesn't.

Are you being serious? What is your problem? You're such a rude poster. First, you are one of the most boring posters on here. We get it, you're miserable. The Celtics are way better than you had expected they would be after the KG trade. I mean there are so many things you are consistently wrong about it's crazy. So stop trying to start stuff on a board for no reason.

I'm not a troll. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO PLAY D WITHOUT IT.
Given that you all but admitted that this thread is around because you knew someone was going to blow up... yeah, I think that's what it is.

I think I have already explained it (it's not that hard to see), but let me try once again: Brad S is a horrible defensive coach who plays a defensive scheme barely fit for high school basketball, and he struggles to adjust when it's being torn to shreds (so about all the time). It almost seems that once we no longer need to run the setup in which Isaiah hides in the corner, we have no blasted idea what we're doing.

In addition, players like Crowder and Bradley have been horrible defensively, and there seems to be little accountability being passed around for this (particularly in Crowder's case). The guy had one great season and has either mailed it in, or is being completely exposed.

With this being said, Thomas is still a horrible defensive liability who needs the entire defensive scheme to account for him. To the extent to which our defense has been poor overall, that probably hasn't hurt us much this season (it's all relative)... but it probably will unless you're planning to keep playing poor defense forever.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2017, 05:11:11 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
I don't know how you assess the degree one is a defensive liability, but I assure you those other guys suck.  The real issue is lack of a frontcourt.  Kyrie can't be guarded, only slowed down.  But the reason he ate us alive is because we have zero rim protection.
It's not really hard. Can you challenge shots? Can you fight through picks? Are you exceptionally quick/agile and able to get to ball and into passing lanes? Can you stand your ground when posted up? Can you force your assignment to where you want him to go (his off hand, towards the help, into an uncomfortable jump shot)? Thomas grades poor to below average on all of these, and that's a pretty lenient assessment.

Also, you can protect the rim without having to block every shot. You just need to have a rudimentary idea of what to do when the first line of defense gets beat. We do... nothing? There's no adjustment, bigs don't step up, players don't fight through picks, there's no rotation to the strong side of the ball... Brad S might be the only guy in the building who refuses to acknowledge that it doesn't work!
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2017, 05:20:24 PM »

Offline tankcity!

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1903
  • Tommy Points: 129
TankCity.

Do you believe Isaiah Thomas has defended better than Marcus Smart in the playoffs this year?

thats right. You dont. Because that would be a beyond ridiculous assertion.

Of course I don't. Do you take me for an imbecile? I just knew JPotter would blow up like he usually does at the mention of Smart. The guy is a baby.

Anyways, we haven't been good at D since Thomas has been injured. I think the team as a whole needs to get better at D. I hope my point makes sense now.
Seeing that you have no point other than to troll people -- no, it still doesn't.

Are you being serious? What is your problem? You're such a rude poster. First, you are one of the most boring posters on here. We get it, you're miserable. The Celtics are way better than you had expected they would be after the KG trade. I mean there are so many things you are consistently wrong about it's crazy. So stop trying to start stuff on a board for no reason.

I'm not a troll. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO PLAY D WITHOUT IT.
Given that you all but admitted that this thread is around because you knew someone was going to blow up... yeah, I think that's what it is.

I think I have already explained it (it's not that hard to see), but let me try once again: Brad S is a horrible defensive coach who plays a defensive scheme barely fit for high school basketball, and he struggles to adjust when it's being torn to shreds (so about all the time). It almost seems that once we no longer need to run the setup in which Isaiah hides in the corner, we have no blasted idea what we're doing.

In addition, players like Crowder and Bradley have been horrible defensively, and there seems to be little accountability being passed around for this (particularly in Crowder's case). The guy had one great season and has either mailed it in, or is being completely exposed.

With this being said, Thomas is still a horrible defensive liability who needs the entire defensive scheme to account for him. To the extent to which our defense has been poor overall, that probably hasn't hurt us much this season (it's all relative)... but it probably will unless you're planning to keep playing poor defense forever.

Disagree on your assessment of Stevens coaching ability on D. We hung in there with the Cavs the last two games when they have a much better roster than us. Likesports has already provided stats that show we have been a good defensive team without Thomas. Yes I was wrong, and have no problem ever admitting I am wrong. That's how you learn and get better.

Time will tell. Looking forward to discussing this in 3 years when we're championship contenders. I'm sure you'll be complaining about something.

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2017, 05:33:13 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8593
  • Tommy Points: 1389
I don't know how you assess the degree one is a defensive liability, but I assure you those other guys suck.  The real issue is lack of a frontcourt.  Kyrie can't be guarded, only slowed down.  But the reason he ate us alive is because we have zero rim protection.

It's not really hard. Can you challenge shots? Can you fight through picks? Are you exceptionally quick/agile and able to get to ball and into passing lanes? Can you stand your ground when posted up? Can you force your assignment to where you want him to go (his off hand, towards the help, into an uncomfortable jump shot)? Thomas grades poor to below average on all of these, and that's a pretty lenient assessment.

Also, you can protect the rim without having to block every shot. You just need to have a rudimentary idea of what to do when the first line of defense gets beat. We do... nothing? There's no adjustment, bigs don't step up, players don't fight through picks, there's no rotation to the strong side of the ball... Brad S might be the only guy in the building who refuses to acknowledge that it doesn't work!

He can play passing lanes fairly well, he's a high BBIQ player.  Frankly, I don't think he cares about defense in the same exact way that the others I listed don't.  And it's not like any of them are picking up their defensive efforts/abilities in the playoffs.

You cut out part of my post again.  Note that Kyrie was hidden on the inbounder (Jerebko) here.
On the final play, Bradley was JR's assignment from the start.  Crowder made a cut and for some special reason, he followed Crowder alongside Shumpert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxXnPdSN1T0
The Tarstradamus Group, LLC

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2017, 05:41:09 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
We've mainly been a "bad" defensive team with Thomas on the floor ... when we also have both Avery and Marcus as well.

In other words, we've sucked when we play the infamous "3-guard" configurations.

Configurations that have included all three of those guys have posted a miserable defensive rating of 115.2 points per 100 possessions.  That's at least to go along with a matching 115.0 offensive rating so we sort of break even.

On the other hand, if you take Marcus out, configurations that have had just Isaiah and Avery on the floor in a 2-guard lineup have posted a roughly league-average defensive rating of just 109.1 (along with a still hefty 115.7 offensive rating).

This isn't to suggest that Marcus is the defensive weak-link here.  The problem is that the 3-guard lineup often puts at least one player and usually two at size disadvantages.  Most of the time that meant Marcus having to defend much bigger scoring forwards at the 3 and sometimes Jae defending bigs at the 4.

We used that configuration a lot and the negative impact of that configuration shows up not just in Isaiah's defensive ratings (and derivative stats like DRPM) but also in those of others on the team.

Note that other 2-guard combos like AB+MS & IT+MS also had better defensive ratings though only those with IT had strong offensive ratings.

Basically, the team was a much better defensive team when it used 2-guard lineups than with 3-guard lineups.  Unfortunately, our lack of depth of quality bigs may have motivated Stevens to use the latter configurations so much.

In regards to the synergy stats referenced in the original post for this thread and the concern by some about Marcus rating as 'average'.  If you consider that he's probably had to defend more individual plays against bigger scoring forwards when in this configuration, that probably has probably negatively impacted his synergy per-play stats.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2017, 05:56:47 PM »

Online The Oracle

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1197
  • Tommy Points: 597
If you want to look at something a lot more realistic pull up the TPA (total points added) graphs from NBA Math.  They have I.T. as the single worst defender in the playoffs and Smart as one of the very best.

Re: Boston Celtics Defensive Advance Stats
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2017, 05:58:56 PM »

Offline The One

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2017
  • Tommy Points: 203
We've mainly been a "bad" defensive team with Thomas on the floor ... when we also have both Avery and Marcus as well.

In other words, we've sucked when we play the infamous "3-guard" configurations.

Configurations that have included all three of those guys have posted a miserable defensive rating of 115.2 points per 100 possessions.  That's at least to go along with a matching 115.0 offensive rating so we sort of break even.

On the other hand, if you take Marcus out, configurations that have had just Isaiah and Avery on the floor in a 2-guard lineup have posted a roughly league-average defensive rating of just 109.1 (along with a still hefty 115.7 offensive rating).

This isn't to suggest that Marcus is the defensive weak-link here.  The problem is that the 3-guard lineup often puts at least one player and usually two at size disadvantages.  Most of the time that meant Marcus having to defend much bigger scoring forwards at the 3 and sometimes Jae defending bigs at the 4.

We used that configuration a lot and the negative impact of that configuration shows up not just in Isaiah's defensive ratings (and derivative stats like DRPM) but also in those of others on the team.

Note that other 2-guard combos like AB+MS & IT+MS also had better defensive ratings though only those with IT had strong offensive ratings.

Basically, the team was a much better defensive team when it used 2-guard lineups than with 3-guard lineups.  Unfortunately, our lack of depth of quality bigs may have motivated Stevens to use the latter configurations so much.

In regards to the synergy stats referenced in the original post for this thread and the concern by some about Marcus rating as 'average'.  If you consider that he's probably had to defend more individual plays against bigger scoring forwards when in this configuration, that probably has probably negatively impacted his synergy per-play stats.

Thanks man!  Good information!