Author Topic: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?  (Read 8341 times)

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Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2017, 11:06:27 AM »

Online Donoghus

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It is extremely frustrating to see him missing at the rim.  Especially if you had watched him at all during his OSU days.   His touch at the rim is pretty atrocious.

Frustrating but I'm certainly not ready to ship the kid out of town.

Right? Am I crazy, or was he really good at finishing in college? It's one of the reasons I was high on him: he attacked the rim.

Yeah, he definitely attacked the rim a ton in college & seemed to be much better at finishing & body control.


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Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 11:19:16 AM »

Offline LilRip

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I definitely don't think weight has a lot to do with it. If I'm not mistaken, he was blazing through the combine despite his heavy frame. I think a lot of it is mental. He seems to be worried about getting his shot blocked or something. He needs to focus on finishing and not drawing the fouls.
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Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2017, 11:21:57 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Anybody who says that Marcus has no lift simply has no idea what they are talking about. The video below is from a couple of years ago, but just two games ago he had a classic Marcus rebound throw-down. I think it has a lot more to do with his technique going to the hoop than his athletic limitations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

And, yes, I get it, Marcus has put on a few pounds, but it's not like he is Sully or anything.

Notice all of his dunk attempts. Smart is a 2 foot jumper, but on his layup attempts he's always going off one. The results, and the lack of lift, have been painful. If I were him I would spend all summer developing a short range/mid range pull jumper where he's exploding off 2 feet instead of barreling his way to the rim.

Think Sam Cassell style offensive game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLWvSqkDAU

« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:27:04 AM by Eddie20 »

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2017, 11:23:14 AM »

Offline Redz

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His release angle is often times pretty screwy on his drives.  He likes to make contact then lean back to create space, so he ends up shooting a layup in kind of a reclined angle.  A lot of times the impact never happens, so he's not only shooting at a weird angle, but he's putting too much force on the shot to compensate for the non-existing impact.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:28:17 AM by Redz »
Yup

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2017, 11:23:27 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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- Way below average shooter -> shrinks driving lines
- Lacks the necessary craftiness to beat his defender one on one
- Perhaps a little bit fat -> average first step - not overly explosive

That being said, I love Smart!!! He 's been one of my favourite players this season. :)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:30:35 AM by Jvalin »

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2017, 11:29:53 AM »

Offline action781

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It is extremely frustrating to see him missing at the rim.  Especially if you had watched him at all during his OSU days.   His touch at the rim is pretty atrocious.

Frustrating but I'm certainly not ready to ship the kid out of town.

Right? Am I crazy, or was he really good at finishing in college? It's one of the reasons I was high on him: he attacked the rim.

Yeah, he definitely attacked the rim a ton in college & seemed to be much better at finishing & body control.

Interesting.  When I saw this topic, I immediately went to look for his college stats because I thought the opposite.  My recollection was him attacking the rim a lot in college, but not being that great of a finisher when he got there.   That could have just been that I only saw a select few poor games though.

Looking up his stats, he shot 48.8% from inside the arc in college.  In the NBA so far up through age 22, he's shooting 42.0% from inside the arc.  Is 48.8% inside the arc good in college?  I don't really know what a baseline for "good" or "great" is tbh for college guards.

I recall noticing him having a significant physical advantage over his positional counterparts at college level that he doesn't he doesn't quite have at age 22 in the NBA yet.  I remember him outmuscling opponents on drives to the hoop.  I hope he can regain that as he gets older.  Also help defense isn't nearly the level in college as it is in the NBA.

Most importantly, for his playoff fg% at the rim, I would put as much weight in it as I put in his playoff 3 point %.  Small sample sizes have a lot of variance in them.
2020 CelticsStrong All-2000s Draft -- Utah Jazz
 
Finals Starters:  Jason Kidd - Reggie Miller - PJ Tucker - Al Horford - Shaq
Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2017, 11:42:55 AM »

Offline action781

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Looking up his stats, he shot 48.8% from inside the arc in college.  In the NBA so far up through age 22, he's shooting 42.0% from inside the arc.  Is 48.8% inside the arc good in college?  I don't really know what a baseline for "good" or "great" is tbh for college guards.

Thought I'd look into this by finding out what the 2pt% is for guards/wings who are top 6 picks (or projected such) over the past few years.  Before I look up the %'s, I'll note that the best comparison players for Smart in this list I think would be Jaylen Brown, Kris Dunn, Oladipo, DAngelo Russell, and maybe Josh Jackson.

Fultz - 50.2%
Ball - 73.2%
Josh Jackson - 54.9%
Fox - 52.0%
Tatum - 50.4%
Ingram - 46.4%
Jaylen Brown - 48.2%
Dunn - 47.6%
Hield - 50.8%
DAngelo Russell - 47.9%
Smart - 48.8%
Oladipo - 58.5%

I guess compared to other top 6 guard/wing draft picks over the past couple seasons, he was never really "great" at finishing inside the arc.  He was probably good compared to the rest of college basketball players (anybody have a baseline comparison figure for that?), but I don't think this finish inside the arc was something that really separated him from others in college.  If anything, he's clustered around the kinds of guys in this list that you tend to classify in the inefficient bunch.

EDIT - slowly going back further into 2013... Dion Waiters (51.3%), Beal (54.1%), Lilliard (49.7%).  A lot of the over the past few years that are really known for their outside shooting rather than their inside finishing still are either better than or not much worse than Smart.
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Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2017, 11:43:21 AM »

Online Donoghus

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It is extremely frustrating to see him missing at the rim.  Especially if you had watched him at all during his OSU days.   His touch at the rim is pretty atrocious.

Frustrating but I'm certainly not ready to ship the kid out of town.

Right? Am I crazy, or was he really good at finishing in college? It's one of the reasons I was high on him: he attacked the rim.

Yeah, he definitely attacked the rim a ton in college & seemed to be much better at finishing & body control.

Interesting.  When I saw this topic, I immediately went to look for his college stats because I thought the opposite.  My recollection was him attacking the rim a lot in college, but not being that great of a finisher when he got there.   That could have just been that I only saw a select few poor games though.

Looking up his stats, he shot 48.8% from inside the arc in college.  In the NBA so far up through age 22, he's shooting 42.0% from inside the arc.  Is 48.8% inside the arc good in college?  I don't really know what a baseline for "good" or "great" is tbh for college guards.

I recall noticing him having a significant physical advantage over his positional counterparts at college level that he doesn't he doesn't quite have at age 22 in the NBA yet.  I remember him outmuscling opponents on drives to the hoop.  I hope he can regain that as he gets older.  Also help defense isn't nearly the level in college as it is in the NBA.

Most importantly, for his playoff fg% at the rim, I would put as much weight in it as I put in his playoff 3 point %.  Small sample sizes have a lot of variance in them.

Good question.  I don't know.   He certainly seemed to attempt more shots at the rim back then than we've seen during his Celtics days.   

I definitely recall his physical superiority over opponents, though.


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Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2017, 11:48:26 AM »

Offline action781

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Good question.  I don't know.   He certainly seemed to attempt more shots at the rim back then than we've seen during his Celtics days.   

I definitely recall his physical superiority over opponents, though.

Funny, I feel like I recalled the exact same thing.  Turns out though he averaged 7.3 2PA/game and 4.6 3PA/game in college (the ratio was even more heavily 3's in his sophmore year than fresh).  Crazy.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marcus-smart-1.html
2020 CelticsStrong All-2000s Draft -- Utah Jazz
 
Finals Starters:  Jason Kidd - Reggie Miller - PJ Tucker - Al Horford - Shaq
Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2017, 12:02:09 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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He lacks the skills to be a multifaceted offensive player. It's not just his shot, it's beating people off the dribble, finishing at the hoop, being able to initiate contact, post ability, etc. The less threats you have on offense the easier it is for defenders to eliminate your best, or only option. And what Smart can do is very limited and streaky. Defenders know Smart can't beat them one-on-one and when he is able to penetrate he doesn't draw the attention that would give him passing options.

Since he doesn't have the required athleticism or body control to score other ways, the only thing he can do is improve his shot. He's had three years and an extra sophomore year of college to do that. I'm not going to wager that it will happen.

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2017, 12:05:35 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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The thing is, he wasn't a bad finisher in college:

Quote from: nbadraft.net
Strengths: ... Uses his mixture of quickness, strength, instincts, and aggressiveness to get to the rim, then uses his big frame and excellent body control to finish through contact
Sounds to me like saying "he's kind of ok with all of these but great at neither". Maybe this was enough to cut it in the NCAA, but certainly not in the NBA.
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Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2017, 12:06:15 PM »

Offline LilRip

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Peep his pre-draft scouting video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-2xqmw8NHco

It's a pretty good reflection of how he's translated in the NBA. Although he definitely seemed to be able to finish better. Or at least he went up to make the shot more (rather than trying to draw contact first). It's also interesting how a lot of the intangibles in his scouting vid is pretty spot on.
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Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2017, 12:24:31 PM »

Offline action781

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Peep his pre-draft scouting video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-2xqmw8NHco

It's a pretty good reflection of how he's translated in the NBA. Although he definitely seemed to be able to finish better. Or at least he went up to make the shot more (rather than trying to draw contact first). It's also interesting how a lot of the intangibles in his scouting vid is pretty spot on.

Yeah, starting at the 12:45 mark brings back a lot of what I remember
2020 CelticsStrong All-2000s Draft -- Utah Jazz
 
Finals Starters:  Jason Kidd - Reggie Miller - PJ Tucker - Al Horford - Shaq
Bench:  Rajon Rondo - Trae Young - Marcus Smart - Jaylen Brown -  Peja Stojakovic - Jamal Mashburn - Carlos Boozer - Tristan Thompson - Mehmet Okur

Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2017, 12:25:29 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Anybody who says that Marcus has no lift simply has no idea what they are talking about. The video below is from a couple of years ago, but just two games ago he had a classic Marcus rebound throw-down. I think it has a lot more to do with his technique going to the hoop than his athletic limitations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

And, yes, I get it, Marcus has put on a few pounds, but it's not like he is Sully or anything.

Notice all of his dunk attempts. Smart is a 2 foot jumper, but on his layup attempts he's always going off one. The results, and the lack of lift, have been painful. If I were him I would spend all summer developing a short range/mid range pull jumper where he's exploding off 2 feet instead of barreling his way to the rim.

Think Sam Cassell style offensive game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLWvSqkDAU

Totally - I posted this a few months ago, but it seems appropriate now. Marcus may just be emulating himself after the wrong people. I think we would all be ecstatic if he had a Sam Cassell type of offensive game.

http://www.balldontstop.com/what-type-of-jumper-are-you/

Here is a small sample:

Quote
Two foot jumpers rely on their absolute strength and explosive power. Generally speaking two foot jumpers are naturally stronger in the lower body than one foot jumpers. Two foot jumpers that can get really high have a lot of strength and explosiveness in their glutes, hamstrings, lower backs and quads.

One thing you’ll notice about heavier athletes is that they jump higher off of two feet. This is because they have the strength in the lower bodies to exert a lot of force into the ground and explode up.



Re: I really like Smart, but how does this happen?
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2017, 12:26:52 PM »

Offline celtics2030

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Anybody who says that Marcus has no lift simply has no idea what they are talking about. The video below is from a couple of years ago, but just two games ago he had a classic Marcus rebound throw-down. I think it has a lot more to do with his technique going to the hoop than his athletic limitations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

And, yes, I get it, Marcus has put on a few pounds, but it's not like he is Sully or anything.

Notice all of his dunk attempts. Smart is a 2 foot jumper, but on his layup attempts he's always going off one. The results, and the lack of lift, have been painful. If I were him I would spend all summer developing a short range/mid range pull jumper where he's exploding off 2 feet instead of barreling his way to the rim.

Think Sam Cassell style offensive game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLWvSqkDAU

Totally - I posted this a few months ago, but it seems appropriate now. Marcus may just be emulating himself after the wrong people. I think we would all be ecstatic if he had a Sam Cassell type of offensive game.

http://www.balldontstop.com/what-type-of-jumper-are-you/

Given that Sam is one of the best mid range shooters of all time, and one of the best post up guards of all time.