Author Topic: Help me out with this logic, please  (Read 7116 times)

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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2017, 09:44:33 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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The most obvious difference is that Fultz's size means he has the potential to become a defensive difference maker, or at least not a liability.

But hey, I'm fully on board with drafting Fultz and making him our starting SG. He and IT could be a deadly duo for years to come.
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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2017, 09:45:01 AM »

Offline hodgy03038

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I don't know where you get the IT comparison like he is version 2.0 but even if he is he as an 18-year old is 8 inches taller which already gives him an edge.

I am hearing he could be a "James Harden" 2.0 or Russell Westbrook 2.0 which is even a step above.

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2017, 09:48:22 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't know where you get the IT comparison like he is version 2.0 but even if he is he as an 18-year old is 8 inches taller which already gives him an edge.

I am hearing he could be a "James Harden" 2.0 or Russell Westbrook 2.0 which is even a step above.
I didn't realize Fultz grew to over 6'6 overnight.
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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2017, 09:53:06 AM »

Offline max215

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Those who think the offense is better without IT are being reactionary. Marcus Smart shooting 7/10 from three and drawing two 3-shot fouls is clearly unsustainable. This reminds me of earlier in the season when IT missed a game and we walloped the Magic by about 30; we proceeded to get smoked in the next 2 games without IT. The offense is not better without him. It's not close. That much will become clear in the next two games.
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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2017, 10:18:00 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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By this logic all 25 point scorers should be sixth men.

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2017, 10:23:27 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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I keep reading that Fultz is like IT offensively, except 6'4". Most fans wouldn't be surprised to see Fultz someday put up 25 points and 6 assists.

I'm also reading that IT hurts our offense and that he should be a 6th man.

So, why are we taking Fultz again? Using the #1 pick on a 6th man who would stagnate our offense sounds like a horrible idea.

You're only mentioning the offensive side of the ball. On defense, where Thomas is constantly exploited, Fultz has the size, length, and athleticism to potentially be a plus defender.

It's like comparing Okafor and Horford and asking why one is a 4 time all-star, the other a bench player on a lowly team, yet their stats are fairly similar.

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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2017, 10:30:44 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Fultz's size gives him the potential to be a better defender and passer, and he's potentially a much better all around player.

A backcourt of, say, Fultz and Smart would have a much better chance of defending Wall & Beal or whatever great backcourt than IT + anyone else. I have to wonder how much better Smart and Bradley would be offensively if not for the energy they have to expand trying to compensate for IT.

I love IT and hope he stays a Celtic, but under no circumstance should they give him the max. He's not worth it, and as our young players get better, IT's role will diminish over the next 2=4 years.

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2017, 10:42:28 AM »

Offline Granath

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Oh, I'd absolutely take Fultz. I'd be thrilled if he turns into IT 2.0.

I just don't understand why some of the folks jonesing for him continually bash IT. Fultz and IT are going to both approach the game with a scorer's mentality.

Kobe approached the game with a scorer's mentality. Many players approach the game with a scorer's mentality. That really doesn't matter.

The difference is that IT can't play defense. He's really 5'8" and thus gives away about 6 inches plus another 3-4 or reach against players at his position. Here's the average PG height in the NBA: http://fansided.com/pg-height-2016/  Notice that strange line in the bottom left corner? That's IT. He's severely overmatched almost every night and he's not physical enough to make up the difference at only 185 pounds. That's why Ainge was able to obtain him so cheaply. He's limited as to what he can do on a basketball court because he's simply not big enough.

Fultz is 6-4 (maybe closer to 6-5 now) with a massive wingspan. He's already 195 pounds and probably will weigh about 205-210 for the majority of his NBA career. Physically, he won't be overmatched against anyone. So as long as he wants to play defense, he'll be significantly better than IT simply due to his size.

The whole "like IT" gig on this board has everything to do with Fultz being able to take some of the scoring load off IT, not that their games are similar. IT and Fultz' games have little in common besides they can both put a ball in a shiny hoop.
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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 10:45:33 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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My defense for IT being a 6th man is simple, his defensive inefficiency against the NBA elite is obvious. If he came off the bench he'd be able to score at will against other bench players or gassed starters. Also, and more importantly, he would be guarding other bench players which takes a lot of pressure off him on the defensive side of things. During the Washington series I thought he should come off the bench and that we should start Bradley and Smart. Beal/Wall were having their way with IT on the offensive end. Why not start Smart in his place to tire them out, make them work harder right off the bat?

Here is my thread from earlier in the year, people were not happy with it, but I am sticking by it even to this day.. minus the start Jonas part, he has let me down (except for last night).. ANNNNNND maybe starting Terry wasn't a good call, although he has shown promise this playoffs.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=87995.0

I said this exact thing yesterday but most don't think IT ever goes back to the bench and how do you pay him to come off the bench.

I don't think starting is the key. To me, it's the minutes played and when the minutes are played that's important.
When the Celts were at full strength in the 80s, Kevin McHale came off the bench usually and he's one of the greatest players to ever suit up.

If we, for example, draft Fultz and sign Hayward, it won't be more than a year or two before IT is our 6th man, or is traded.

That's IT's likely role, be it here or elsewhere. If he's on a great team, that's the role he's suited for. The only way he's going to get 40 minutes and 30 points a night is if he's on an offensively challenged team, or just a bad team.

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2017, 11:04:52 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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I keep reading that Fultz is like IT offensively, except 6'4". Most fans wouldn't be surprised to see Fultz someday put up 25 points and 6 assists.

I'm also reading that IT hurts our offense and that he should be a 6th man.

So, why are we taking Fultz again? Using the #1 pick on a 6th man who would stagnate our offense sounds like a horrible idea.

I'm also reading that IT hurts our offense defense and that he should be a 6th man.

Fixed it for you. :)

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2017, 11:11:48 AM »

Offline cltc5

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Let's clarify.  IT STARTING HURTS THE TEAM Devolpmentally.  Not offensively.  He's a boost to the offense but the problem is,  he's become the offense.

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2017, 11:33:48 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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I keep reading that Fultz is like IT offensively, except 6'4". Most fans wouldn't be surprised to see Fultz someday put up 25 points and 6 assists.

I'm also reading that IT hurts our offense and that he should be a 6th man.

So, why are we taking Fultz again? Using the #1 pick on a 6th man who would stagnate our offense sounds like a horrible idea.

You're only mentioning the offensive side of the ball. On defense, where Thomas is constantly exploited, Fultz has the size, length, and athleticism to potentially be a plus defender.

It's like comparing Okafor and Horford and asking why one is a 4 time all-star, the other a bench player on a lowly team, yet their stats are fairly similar.
agreed.

I don't expect Fultz to be the scorer that IT is but certainly a very competent scorer as well as a better passer and a much better defender.  He's not IT 2.0, but Fultz 1.0. 

Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2017, 11:45:22 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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I don't know where you get the IT comparison like he is version 2.0 but even if he is he as an 18-year old is 8 inches taller which already gives him an edge.

I am hearing he could be a "James Harden" 2.0 or Russell Westbrook 2.0 which is even a step above.
I didn't realize Fultz grew to over 6'6 overnight.
I didn’t know IT was 5’10’’
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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2017, 11:57:37 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't know where you get the IT comparison like he is version 2.0 but even if he is he as an 18-year old is 8 inches taller which already gives him an edge.

I am hearing he could be a "James Harden" 2.0 or Russell Westbrook 2.0 which is even a step above.
I didn't realize Fultz grew to over 6'6 overnight.
I didn’t know IT was 5’10’’
Perhaps you should double-check how he measured out at the combine then.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Isaiah-Thomas-5678/
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Re: Help me out with this logic, please
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2017, 12:01:50 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I don't know where you get the IT comparison like he is version 2.0 but even if he is he as an 18-year old is 8 inches taller which already gives him an edge.

I am hearing he could be a "James Harden" 2.0 or Russell Westbrook 2.0 which is even a step above.
I didn't realize Fultz grew to over 6'6 overnight.
I didn’t know IT was 5’10’’

At the 2011 NBA Draft Combine, Isaiah was measured:  5' 8.75" w/o shoes, 5' 10.25" w/shoes.

At a workout for the Nets the same year, he was measured 5' 9" w/o shoes, 5' 10.5" w/shoes.

At the Deron Williams Camp that year he was measure 5' 11" w/shoes.

Seems pretty clear he's at least 5' 10" w/shoes.

Fultz' tallest measurement to date (2016 Nike Hoop Summit) had him at 6' 4.75" w/shoes.


On the larger topic of this thread:

I do see tremendous similarities between Fultz and Isaiah.  But the most important similarity is they both have the ability to be elite scoring weapons both on or off the ball.   Thus I see them as potentially a fantastic complementary pair that would be incredibly difficult to defend.

In Stevens' nomenclature, there is no 'PG' or 'SG'.  There are ball handlers and wings.  Both Thomas and Fultz can move smoothly between either role, probably often on the same play.
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