Author Topic: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"  (Read 4697 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2017, 12:31:56 PM »

Offline Rosco917

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6108
  • Tommy Points: 559
We would be a better team with a reliable and talented two way point guard starting, AND IT coming off the bench.

IT coming off the bench throughout the game, but especially when the defense is tired in the 4th quarter where short bursts of energetic scoring would be very effective. When the opposing team counters by exposing him on D, he goes back to the bench.


Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2017, 12:43:01 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
I think we would at least be in the 6-9 range. Cle, Tor, Was, Atl, and Mil would likely be better than us.

But, those saying we would be a lottery team without IT are just subtracting him from the team and not replacing him with anybody. With his and Zeller's money (never mind Amir's and JJ's money), we would have been able to sign a pretty decent player in his place. Also, Brad would have actually coached a different scheme to put his players in the best position to succeed.

When a player misses a few games throughout a season - rather than extensive time - you can't really use that sample as an example of how the team would play (including last night). The players would be playing a different style altogether and be used to doing so.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2017, 01:16:39 PM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 981
  • Tommy Points: 141
They would be in the mix for the number 8 seed.   You can not overlook what IT's fourth quarter meant to this team.

And for the other team. They scored on him at will many times. People here underrate defense so much...

TP @Jambr380 for that view that many fail to see.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2017, 01:21:30 PM »

Offline mef730

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4422
  • Tommy Points: 907
Chad Finn quote of the day:

Quote
(Quick public service announcement: If you hear someone suggest that the Celtics are better without Thomas, please turn off your radio — with a hammer.)

Mike

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2017, 03:24:11 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58554
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
We would be a better team with a reliable and talented two way point guard starting, AND IT coming off the bench.

IT coming off the bench throughout the game, but especially when the defense is tired in the 4th quarter where short bursts of energetic scoring would be very effective. When the opposing team counters by exposing him on D, he goes back to the bench.

Had IT needed to come off the bench to dominate the 4th quarter?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2017, 03:32:03 PM »

Online Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58554
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
They would be in the mix for the number 8 seed.   You can not overlook what IT's fourth quarter meant to this team.

And for the other team. They scored on him at will many times. People here underrate defense so much...

TP @Jambr380 for that view that many fail to see.

Yeah, IT was a liability in the fourth, like when he outscored John Wall 29-5 a couple weeks back.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2017, 03:43:31 PM »

Offline rochrist

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 206
  • Tommy Points: 17
As good as IT is his acquisition has hampered the development of the team as a whole specifically Marcus smart who was drafted to replace rondo.  I think the intention was to make It the 6th man which he should be, but a bunch of whining and lack of backbone on management probably haulted that.  As I've been saying, trade IT for some picks while we can.  And it's not to say IT isn't valuable, he's just The offense, and that's not good when you are developing a Team.


I agree that IT has likely slowed Smarts development and without IT he would likely be viewed as a solid starting PG and all NBA defender. However I take issues with saying IT'd role is a result of a lack of backbone from management. Smart got hurt and IT's production exploded. If Smart where an established vet he would have gotten his job back but as a young player it was obvious IT deserved to start.

On the trade IT front, I would be surprised but not shocked to see him moved. Either AB or IT has to go in order to land Hayward. Even without Hayward Fultz is going to deserve immediate minutes.

Why on earth would IT be hindering Smart's development. He still gets 30 minutes a game. He still managed to jack up 332 threes even when he's shooting 28 percent on them. By contrast, AB only shot 3s at a slightly higher rate even though he was hitting 39 percent.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2017, 03:51:28 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
As an aside, I do not think we would be better off without IT.

There is an IT for Butler trade thread going around. The folks on ESPN were discussing whether or not NYK would consider a Porzingis for IT trade. These are the kind-of trades you consider.

Simply not re-signing him should be a last resort. If Danny has no intention in giving him the money he wants, then hopefully he will trade him before that. I would like to retain him at a reasonable cost, though.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2017, 04:03:18 PM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 981
  • Tommy Points: 141
They would be in the mix for the number 8 seed.   You can not overlook what IT's fourth quarter meant to this team.

And for the other team. They scored on him at will many times. People here underrate defense so much...

TP @Jambr380 for that view that many fail to see.

Yeah, IT was a liability in the fourth, like when he outscored John Wall 29-5 a couple weeks back.

I think this is not a sample size to be taken into account. In PO, Wall has averaged 4 points more than IT, with better % in FG, 3 pt and FT. That's something if you can compare.

Also, I'd like to ask all the people who suggest I'm saying we'd be better without IT to read the OP. Carefully. Please. That's not the idea at all.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2017, 04:19:35 PM »

Offline cousytoheinsohn

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 247
  • Tommy Points: 33
Chad Finn quote of the day:

Quote
(Quick public service announcement: If you hear someone suggest that the Celtics are better without Thomas, please turn off your radio — with a hammer.)

Mike

Among many outstanding ones, this has gotta be the Comment of the Day, so far. :)

Thanks for sharing.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2017, 04:23:33 PM »

Offline jambr380

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13002
  • Tommy Points: 1756
  • Everybody knows what's best for you
Chad Finn quote of the day:

Quote
(Quick public service announcement: If you hear someone suggest that the Celtics are better without Thomas, please turn off your radio — with a hammer.)

Mike

Among many outstanding ones, this has gotta be the Comment of the Day, so far. :)

Thanks for sharing.

I don't think anyone in this thread (or on this blog) has said that. People are just claiming we wouldn't necessarily be the hopeless dumpster fire some have claimed we would be. We are obviously better with IT than no IT (or equivalent replacement) at all.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2017, 04:25:24 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3667
  • Tommy Points: 586
Speculation nation...huh?

Firstly, without Thomas, the Celtic's roster is different...isn't it?
Currently, Steven's has built the Celtic's system around Thomas' extraordinary talent.
Without Thomas, Stevens would've built a different system around whomever he sees best to build around.

This young man has given us a fantastic season. He gave us all what we hope for when following a team.

In a non "pick swap year" Ainge would be happy to be a lottery team. He wants to get you and me a title, not 7 games with the Bullets.

I think the debate here on the board is fully born of Thomas' brilliant play, the issue will be resolved by Ainge for reasons that may not have anything to do with 5'9" and 28 PPG.

IF Mr. Danny, on NBA draft night, goes ahead and pix Fultz he will have finally, publicly, thoroughly and inordinately overdosed on guards.

Bradley and Smart are two of the best back court defenders in the NBA which is a back court kinda league. Fultz will be yet another well paid member of the Celtic's back court with Rozier, an excellent and cheap defender in his own right. In the world of "building around" through zero fault of his own, Thomas might be the...

Odd man out.

And if Thomas is playing elsewhere, and the Celtics are back in the lottery? Ainge will be talking trades for that "lottery pick"  with anyone who'll listen won't he?

 

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2017, 04:34:42 PM »

Offline mef730

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4422
  • Tommy Points: 907
They would be in the mix for the number 8 seed.   You can not overlook what IT's fourth quarter meant to this team.

And for the other team. They scored on him at will many times. People here underrate defense so much...

TP @Jambr380 for that view that many fail to see.

Yeah, IT was a liability in the fourth, like when he outscored John Wall 29-5 a couple weeks back.

Yeah, but who do you think was responsible for Wall's 5 points?

Mike

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2017, 04:48:03 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
They would be in the mix for the number 8 seed.   You can not overlook what IT's fourth quarter meant to this team.

And for the other team. They scored on him at will many times. People here underrate defense so much...

TP @Jambr380 for that view that many fail to see.

Yeah, IT was a liability in the fourth, like when he outscored John Wall 29-5 a couple weeks back.

I think this is not a sample size to be taken into account. In PO, Wall has averaged 4 points more than IT, with better % in FG, 3 pt and FT. That's something if you can compare.

Also, I'd like to ask all the people who suggest I'm saying we'd be better without IT to read the OP. Carefully. Please. That's not the idea at all.

Wall has a teammate who is also an elite offensive scoring threat (Beal) that helps draws defensive attention away from Wall and who also can go off for 30 points in a game as well.   Thus Wall doesn't draw the same constant double & triple team attention in the playoffs that Isaiah has drawn in every single playoff game he has played in.

Isaiah's personal scoring definitely dropped overall in the playoffs as teams have doubled-down on this strategy, daring the rest of the Celtics lineup to make shots.   This isn't complex. 

Two other elite scorers in these playoffs also suffered similar excess defensive attention.  Westbrook's WS/48 dropped from .224 in the regular season to .108 in the playoffs.   Harden's dropped from .245 down to .161.

All this establishes is the need to have more than one elite scoring weapon in order to avoid being shut down in the playoffs by better defenses.

Wall doesn't have this excuse, though.  He has that sidekick.

And let's be clear when comparing Thomas and Wall:

1) Thomas now has a career 16-6 record against Wall.  He has consistently out-played him over the course of their careers in head-to-head match ups.  This goes back even to when Thomas was playing on truly horrible SAC teams.
2) In this playoff series between them, Thomas scored more points (27.4 vs 25.1) per game on fewer minutes (36.6 vs 39.1).  Thomas posted an elite scoring efficiency (TS) of 60.3% while Wall had a very below-average 48.9% TS.  BB-ref rated Thomas with a higher overall 'Game Score' rating of 19.5 compared to 18.9 for Wall.
3) Wall ended up going home.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: "We would be a lottery team without Isaiah"
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2017, 04:51:50 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862

Currently, Steven's has built the Celtic's system around Thomas' extraordinary talent.

The 6 players that have spent the most minutes on the floor with Thomas this year are:

Avery
Jae
Marcus
Al
Amir
Kelly

and the gap in minutes is wide to get to the next player.   Of those 6 players only two (Al & Amir) were added after Thomas.

So, no, this roster was not really built around Thomas.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.