Trade #1 for Porzingis

[Mean Gerald Green]

No, I want Anthony Davis or I hang up the phone!!!

NO would laugh and NEVER make the call.   You wouldn't get AD even if you added IT and others to the deal....

They would laugh at IT and the #1 pick? Sure. Whatever you say, pal.

[oldtype]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

You are kidding right?  Anthony Davis is a first team ALL NBA type player, KAT is moving towards top 25.  IMO you can't even mention Simmons in the same paragraph with those other 2 and the same goes for Fultz.

We are, of course, talking about their stock at the time of the draft, not what players they end up becoming 4-5 years down the line.

[Casperian]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

Yeah, and of those four, only Curry has a championship, and he was drafted 7th. In that same draft, Hasheem Thabeet and Jonny Flynn were drafted ahead of him.

And?

That means the draft is a crapshoot.

C'mon koz, that I have to explain that to you of all people is kinda ridiculous.

Historically, the #1 overall pick is FAR from a crapshoot. There are busts, but #1 usually turns out pretty [dang] well.

Yeah, that's true. Then again, in that Curry draft, the #1 was Blake Griffin, who hasn't won a championship, either.

Look, all I'm saying is, we shouldn't categorically rule out moving the pick. Instead, we should keep an open mind, and if the right offer comes along, we should think about it. If not, I'll happily take Fultz and call it a succesful day. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Danny will do. I just don't believe that the fanbase is there, yet.

[kozlodoev]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

Yeah, and of those four, only Curry has a championship, and he was drafted 7th. In that same draft, Hasheem Thabeet and Jonny Flynn were drafted ahead of him.

And?

That means the draft is a crapshoot.

C'mon koz, that I have to explain that to you of all people is kinda ridiculous.

Of course the draft is a crapshoot. But the suggestion that players of Fultz's size and skill set have not been "dominant in this league" is largely a false narative -- that's what I was getting at.

[oldtype]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

Yeah, and of those four, only Curry has a championship, and he was drafted 7th. In that same draft, Hasheem Thabeet and Jonny Flynn were drafted ahead of him.

And?

That means the draft is a crapshoot.

C'mon koz, that I have to explain that to you of all people is kinda ridiculous.

Historically, the #1 overall pick is FAR from a crapshoot. There are busts, but #1 usually turns out pretty [dang] well.

Yeah, that's true. Then again, in that Curry draft, the #1 was Blake Griffin, who hasn't won a championship, either.

Look, all I'm saying is, we shouldn't categorically rule out moving the pick. Instead, we should keep an open mind, and if the right offer comes along, we should think about it. If not, I'll happily take Fultz and call it a succesful day. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Danny will do. I just don't believe that the fanbase is there, yet.

I simply don't understand why "hasn't won a championship" is a metric here. Who are we trading that pick for?

Jimmy Butler, who hasn't won a championship?
Paul George, who hasn't won a championship?

[Granath]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

Yeah, and of those four, only Curry has a championship, and he was drafted 7th. In that same draft, Hasheem Thabeet and Jonny Flynn were drafted ahead of him.

And?

That means the draft is a crapshoot.

C'mon koz, that I have to explain that to you of all people is kinda ridiculous.

Historically, the #1 overall pick is FAR from a crapshoot. There are busts, but #1 usually turns out pretty [dang] well.

Yeah, that's true. Then again, in that Curry draft, the #1 was Blake Griffin, who hasn't won a championship, either.

Look, all I'm saying is, we shouldn't categorically rule out moving the pick. Instead, we should keep an open mind, and if the right offer comes along, we should think about it. If not, I'll happily take Fultz and call it a succesful day. Thankfully, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Danny will do. I just don't believe that the fanbase is there, yet.

I'm categorically saying we should not move the pick unless it's Anthony Davis or a Godfather offer.

You don't look a gift horse in the mouth. This is the best gift horse the Celtics could have received.

[Jvalin]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

We are talking about KG/Duncan level of dominance. Westbrook, Harden and Iverson have never won a ring. Westbrook put up historically great numbers, yet the Thunder failed to progress through the first round. Harden couldn't help the Rockets make a deep playoff run either. Iverson got to the finals just once and the Sixers lost 4-1 to the Lakers. Curry is the only one who has won a championship but I wouldn't say he is (or will ever be) as dominant as KG/Duncan were. While he is definitely an elite shooter/offensive player, he is a below average defender. If you can't impact games on both ends of the floor you will never be dominant enough to be compared with KG, Duncan and those kind of guys.

Fultz is projected to be great on both ends of the floor as well. The thing is he is 6-4. Don't get me wrong, that's great size for a point guard. What I am trying to say is that when it comes to dominance, size matters. Magic dominated the league from the PG position because he stands at 6-9. Penny Hardaway did the same thing for a couple of seasons (prior to the injuries) but he stands at 6-7. How do you match up against a 6-7/6-9 point guard? How do you match up against Giannis when he runs the point for the Bucks? You just can't. If Fultz were 6-6 or something I would be over the moon with him. At 6-4 I 'm not that confident he is gonna impact games the way taller players can do. He will most likely become a hell of a player though and that's definitely good enough for me.

[Ilikesports17]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

Yeah, and of those four, only Curry has a championship, and he was drafted 7th. In that same draft, Hasheem Thabeet and Jonny Flynn were drafted ahead of him.

And?

That means the draft is a crapshoot.

C'mon koz, that I have to explain that to you of all people is kinda ridiculous.

Of course the draft is a crapshoot. But the suggestion that players of Fultz's size and skill set have not been "dominant in this league" is largely a false narative -- that's what I was getting at.

to piggyback on that, your two MVP candidates this year have similar size/skillset to Fultz and 5x champion Kobe Bryant actually has pretty comparable measurables.

[kozlodoev]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

We are talking about KG/Duncan level of dominance. Westbrook, Harden and Iverson have never won a ring. Westbrook put up historically great numbers, yet the Thunder failed to progress through the first round. Harden couldn't help the Rockets make a deep playoff run either. Iverson got to the finals just once and the Sixers lost 4-1 to the Lakers. Curry is the only one who has won a championship but I wouldn't say he is (or will ever be) as dominant as KG/Duncan were. While he is definitely an elite shooter/offensive player, he is a below average defender. If you can't impact games on both ends of the floor you will never be dominant enough to be compared with KG, Duncan and those kind of guys.

Fultz is projected to be great at both ends of the floor as well. The thing is he is 6-4. Don't get me wrong, that's great size for a point guard. What I am trying to say is that when it comes to dominance, size matters. Magic dominated the league from the PG position because he stands at 6-9. Penny Hardaway did the same thing for a couple of seasons (prior to the injuries) but he stands at 6-7. How do you mutch up against a 6-7/6-9 point guard? How do you match up against Giannis when he runs the point for the Bucks? You just can't. If Fultz were 6-6 or something I would be over the moon with him. At 6-4 I 'm not that confident he is gonna impact games the way taller players can do. He will most likely become a hell of a player though and that's definitely good enough for me.

He measured 6'3.5 and 6'4.75 early in 2016 when he was still 17. He may or may not end up being 6'5 for the majority of his NBA career.

Also, even with your extremely convenient definition of "dominant", I hear 6'4 Dwyane Wade has acquitted himself quite nicely.

[kozlodoev]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

Yeah, and of those four, only Curry has a championship, and he was drafted 7th. In that same draft, Hasheem Thabeet and Jonny Flynn were drafted ahead of him.

And?

That means the draft is a crapshoot.

C'mon koz, that I have to explain that to you of all people is kinda ridiculous.

Of course the draft is a crapshoot. But the suggestion that players of Fultz's size and skill set have not been "dominant in this league" is largely a false narative -- that's what I was getting at.

to piggyback on that, your two MVP candidates this year have similar size/skillset to Fultz and 5x champion Kobe Bryant actually has pretty comparable measurables.

Ray Allen was, in fact, shorter than Bryant -- and I've already mentioned Dwyane Wade in my other post. Supreme talent beats an extra inch any time. Heck, Muggsy Bogues had a 10-season career in the NBA and he was 5'3 and couldn't shoot.

[Ilikesports17]

The conclusion from this height debate should be that he is very unlikely to be a top 10 all-time player.

Even though Kobe Bryant accomplished that feat with similar measurables.

So if you were expecting a top 10 all-time player, drop those expectations.

[Darío SpanishFan]

I might trade the pick for Porzingis. He has height, which you can't teach. It's much easier to find a very good PG than a very good 7'3" player.

With that said, I haven't seen a lot of games of Fultz, while I saw many Porzingis' games in Spain. And 2018 is loaded with bigs in the draft, so I'm 50/50 in this proposal. Very hard to decide.

[Jvalin]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

We are talking about KG/Duncan level of dominance. Westbrook, Harden and Iverson have never won a ring. Westbrook put up historically great numbers, yet the Thunder failed to progress through the first round. Harden couldn't help the Rockets make a deep playoff run either. Iverson got to the finals just once and the Sixers lost 4-1 to the Lakers. Curry is the only one who has won a championship but I wouldn't say he is (or will ever be) as dominant as KG/Duncan were. While he is definitely an elite shooter/offensive player, he is a below average defender. If you can't impact games on both ends of the floor you will never be dominant enough to be compared with KG, Duncan and those kind of guys.

Fultz is projected to be great at both ends of the floor as well. The thing is he is 6-4. Don't get me wrong, that's great size for a point guard. What I am trying to say is that when it comes to dominance, size matters. Magic dominated the league from the PG position because he stands at 6-9. Penny Hardaway did the same thing for a couple of seasons (prior to the injuries) but he stands at 6-7. How do you mutch up against a 6-7/6-9 point guard? How do you match up against Giannis when he runs the point for the Bucks? You just can't. If Fultz were 6-6 or something I would be over the moon with him. At 6-4 I 'm not that confident he is gonna impact games the way taller players can do. He will most likely become a hell of a player though and that's definitely good enough for me.

He measured 6'3.5 and 6'4.75 early in 2016 when he was still 17. He may or may not end up being 6'5 for the majority of his NBA career.

Also, even with your extremely convenient definition of "dominant", I hear 6'4 Dwyane Wade has acquitted himself quite nicely.

No doubting you mate but where are you seeing this potentially good news at? Draftexpress has no measurements of him without shoes. He didn't attend the combine so there are no official measurements available either.

[ETNCeltics]

No. Porzingis will be a good player and gets a lot of attention because he's in New York, but Fultz is a different class of prospect. We are talking about somebody on the Anthony Davis/Karl Towns/Ben Simmons level here.

Besides Magic who stands at 6-9, have you even seen a point guard being that dominant in this league? I mean, Davis is/was projected to be the next KG. Towns might be the closest thing we 've seen to Tim Duncan.

You mean other than Steph Curry, Russel Wesbrook, James Harden and Allen Iverson?

We are talking about KG/Duncan level of dominance. Westbrook, Harden and Iverson have never won a ring. Westbrook put up historically great numbers, yet the Thunder failed to progress through the first round. Harden couldn't help the Rockets make a deep playoff run either. Iverson got to the finals just once and the Sixers lost 4-1 to the Lakers. Curry is the only one who has won a championship but I wouldn't say he is (or will ever be) as dominant as KG/Duncan were. While he is definitely an elite shooter/offensive player, he is a below average defender. If you can't impact games on both ends of the floor you will never be dominant enough to be compared with KG, Duncan and those kind of guys.

Fultz is projected to be great on both ends of the floor as well. The thing is he is 6-4. Don't get me wrong, that's great size for a point guard. What I am trying to say is that when it comes to dominance, size matters. Magic dominated the league from the PG position because he stands at 6-9. Penny Hardaway did the same thing for a couple of seasons (prior to the injuries) but he stands at 6-7. How do you match up against a 6-7/6-9 point guard? How do you match up against Giannis when he runs the point for the Bucks? You just can't. If Fultz were 6-6 or something I would be over the moon with him. At 6-4 I 'm not that confident he is gonna impact games the way taller players can do. He will most likely become a hell of a player though and that's definitely good enough for me.

Fultz is reportedly 6'5 now, and has the reach of most 6'8 players.

Yes, to be taller but have the same athleticism and skill would be great, but I remain baffled that some Celtic fans are lamenting that we're going to get this great prospect. He has almost no weakness in his game.

Most of the guys you mention didn't win because they were tall, or even because they were dominant. Were Kobe & MJ not dominant at 6'6? The reason they and your list won titles was because they played on great teams. Fultz is tall enough and has an incredible handle. He's going to be a handful for our opponents as he learns the pro game.

[kozlodoev]

No doubting you mate but where are you seeing this potentially good news at? Draftexpress has no measurements of him without shoes. He didn't attend the combine so there are no official measurements available either.

Conventionally, all NBA measurements are reported with shoes. So when you read that Kobe is 6'6 and Ray Allen is 6'5, that's measured with shoes on.

Also, just because a measurement was not made at the NBA combine doesn't necessarily make it unofficial (or unreliable, for that matter). Not as long as it's an actual measurement taking place as opposed just pulling a number out of your rear end and putting it in the media guide.

I'm not saying that he's 6'5 now, but he might be, and given his reach I'm not particularly concerned about him being undersized for a scoring wing. He'll be fine.