Author Topic: #1 for Paul George  (Read 13504 times)

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Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2017, 05:34:18 PM »

Offline mef730

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Us.

Paul George is signing with the Lakers after next season if the reports are to be believed.

You think George would leave a contender to go to a dumpster fire, leaving some $50-80M on the table in the process,as the C's would be able to pay him far more under the new CBA?

When has that ever happened in this league?

Interesting you bring that up, and a TP for you.

It is very possible that PG wants to go to LA. Of course he does. He grew up rooting for this team and would be playing for Magic Freaking Johnson. It's every Lakers fan's dream.

If that's really where he wants to end up, he will of course do everything in his power to get traded there during the season so he can sign a huge contract in LA, rather than having to give it up in Indiana. If he can convince Indy that getting something for him is better than nothing at all, he may get the trade he wants.

Mike

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2017, 09:18:13 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.
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Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2017, 09:44:28 PM »

Offline hodgy03038

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.



Yes, but they had LeBron which attracts players and we do not.

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2017, 08:50:01 AM »

Offline CsBanner18

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.

This isn't monkey see, monkey do! The Cavs traded Andrew Wiggins and his rookie contract to pay Kevin Love 20M+. Yes he's helped them win a title but it can be argued that so could Wiggins AND a free agent for that 20M+ (Ryan Anderson?)

We're not making the same mistake. If we trade for PG13 it will NOT involve the #1 pick. Fultz, Smart, Brown, Zizic, BKN 18 are our future. Our win now group needs to consist of IT, AB, PG13/Hayward/Al.

Having a combination of win now vets and young guys will allow us to compete now, and if it doesn't work out in the next few years--we trade some of our vets for assets to add to the young core.

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2017, 04:46:04 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.

This isn't monkey see, monkey do! The Cavs traded Andrew Wiggins and his rookie contract to pay Kevin Love 20M+. Yes he's helped them win a title but it can be argued that so could Wiggins AND a free agent for that 20M+ (Ryan Anderson?)

We're not making the same mistake. If we trade for PG13 it will NOT involve the #1 pick. Fultz, Smart, Brown, Zizic, BKN 18 are our future. Our win now group needs to consist of IT, AB, PG13/Hayward/Al.

Having a combination of win now vets and young guys will allow us to compete now, and if it doesn't work out in the next few years--we trade some of our vets for assets to add to the young core.
I never said that we should put together a package to get PG13 like the cavs did to get Love. I’m just saying that is what it takes to get a star in their prime, especially when you are a good team who also has young assets so you’re willing to go for it.

You can’t look at what Cousins was traded for and say all we have to give up is a lower lottery pick and buddy hield level prospect to get PG13. Cousins was traded for so little because of his terrible attitude, not his contract. My Love example was what a star get traded for when they have a full year left on their contract and they don’t have bad attitudes that gets in the way of chemistry with the team.
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Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2017, 05:00:25 PM »

Offline hodgy03038

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From what I heard PG13 didn't have a great attitude during the playoffs and even during the season he would throw some teammates under the bus. So I am not sure how more severe Cousins attitude is and is it with teammates or refs or organization?


Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2017, 05:37:23 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I wouldn't include Brown but I would trade 1 for George after Hayward or Griffin was signed as a free agent because in that scenario I don't think George leaves in free agency


It would be ridiculous to trade for the Lake-loving George by thinking he won't leave in free agency.
You mean like Kevin Love, Russell Westbrook, Demarr DeRozan, and countless other players that were supposed to go to LA.  Winning matters.  More dollars matter.  George has said numerous times he wants to win and that is the most important thing to him.  He isn't going to leave a contender to go to a dumpster fire.

Not without an extension up front. I wouldn't trust him just like DeAndre Jordan dumped Dallas. Not worth the risk.
then you don't make the trade because he can't sign an extension up front without leaving a ton of money on the table.  It is a wholly unreasonable request.  Love told Cleveland he would re-up and that is why Cleveland made the trade.  Love re-upped because you know winning matters (so does all that extra money you get by re-signing rather than leaving). 

If you guys don't want to win just say it rather than making up reasons not to trade a pick that you hope someday might be half the player Paul George is.

That's some really poor logic, Moronis. I'm a fan of PG13 but there's no way that most anyone would trade the #1 overall pick in a strong draft for anyone who might be a one year rental.

#1 - Doing so entirely blows cap flexibility. Once you get him that's it - you're set with that team. Is it good enough to beat Cleveland and GS in the next 2-3 years before Horford is too old? Do you really think that going all in right now is the right move?

#2 - You have no idea if PG13 wants to resign with the Celtics. For all we know, the Lakers win 40 games next year and become a more attractive FA destination. Or the Clippers (there are two teams in LA you know) remain relevant enough to attract him. The contract duration HAS to be taken into account and you can't waive your hand and say this isn't a factor and still be taken seriously.

#3 - If you think that the #1 overall pick will only be "half the player" that PG13 is then you're in the extreme minority. Nice job trying to downplay it but most experts are in agreement that Fultz on the low side is a 20+ ppg scorer and on the high side potentially one of the best in the NBA. Neither of those is just half of PG13.

#4 - We just drafted a player #3 last year that plays the exact same position. It would be much more logical to move Jaylen Brown + something else to get PG13 than it would Fultz.

It has nothing to do with "not wanting to win". It has everything to do with building a dynasty, cap management and timing. Treating the game like it's NBA 2K17 might work on your PS4 but it's not a great way to build a team in the real world.
If you want to build a dynasty around Fultz then you dont sign Hayward in free agency and you trade Thomas so Fultz and Brown have free reign.  I'm perfectly fine with that course of action but if Ainge signs Hayward or Griffin it isn't to wait on a rookie it is to won now and that means Ainge is going to make moves using the young assets to increase the win now odds.

Boston can't just keep floating along trying to win and trying to build for the future.  They require different things to fully maximize either course of action.
There you go again with the "all the players have to be the same age" routine.  It's ridiculous.
Same age, that is just silly, but your core absolutely should be in the same general timeframe.  That is why Cleveland traded Wiggins for Love.  They didn't want to wait on Wiggins when they had James.  Signing someone like Hayward to pair with Thomas and Horford, is a perfectly reasonable position, but that team isn't going to win a title, so why just float along and hurt the playing time of Brown, Fultz, Zizic, BKN 18, etc.  It doesn't make sense because players do actually get better and get better faster with playing time.  This isn't a foreign concept or some novel idea.  If the championship goal is to wait on Fultz, then what is the point on keeping players or adding players that don't fit his timeline, especially when you can trade players and pick up more assets that do and open up playing time for him so he can reach his full potential faster.
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Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2017, 05:49:46 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.

This isn't monkey see, monkey do! The Cavs traded Andrew Wiggins and his rookie contract to pay Kevin Love 20M+. Yes he's helped them win a title but it can be argued that so could Wiggins AND a free agent for that 20M+ (Ryan Anderson?)

We're not making the same mistake. If we trade for PG13 it will NOT involve the #1 pick. Fultz, Smart, Brown, Zizic, BKN 18 are our future. Our win now group needs to consist of IT, AB, PG13/Hayward/Al.

Having a combination of win now vets and young guys will allow us to compete now, and if it doesn't work out in the next few years--we trade some of our vets for assets to add to the young core.
Thomas, Bradley, and Smart are all free agents in the summer of 18, you can't just wait two years.  If Boston isn't going to pay them, they should trade them now (or at least some of them), and they can't pay everyone, especially if the team isn't a contender.  If Boston adds a max level free agent this summer, that compounds the problem even more, especially if that max level free agent is not a franchise level player (news flash he isn't going to be a franchise level player).  Boston quite simply can't add free agents, keep all of its current players, and gain enough playing time to properly develop the young players.  It just isn't possible.  we already saw this year how much better Brown played after injuries got him more consistent playing time.  You compound that problem a lot more by adding another rookie guard and potentially a max level player in free agency.  And the thing is, Indiana isn't going to trade George without getting a prime asset back and I don't think Brown counts and the BKN 18 pick is just too up in the air, so that basically means Fultz.  Obviously no way you trade Fultz for George in a vacuum, but if Boston signs Hayward, then trading Fultz for George makes perfect sense.  Crowder and Bradley would be moved at some point in there as well (Crowder likely in the George trade, and Bradley to free up the room to sign Hayward and preferably for a rookie contract big man - say Saric).

This team strikes me as a real legit contender

PG - Thomas, Rozier, Jackson
SG - Hayward, Smart
SF - George, Brown
PF - Saric, Vet min F.A., Yabu, Mickey
C - Horford, Zizic
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Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2017, 05:58:42 PM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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From what I heard PG13 didn't have a great attitude during the playoffs and even during the season he would throw some teammates under the bus. So I am not sure how more severe Cousins attitude is and is it with teammates or refs or organization?
He has had nowhere near the level of frequency or severity that Cousins has had when it comes to attitude problems. The pacers had a frustrating year this year and George spoke out. Cousins has clashed with media, teammates, coaches, and management throughout his entire career. He throws temper tantrums on the court and racks up technical fouls. Both Stevens and Ainge said that they didn’t want to have a distraction on the court and a guy like Cousins who messes up team chemistry. Like I said before, if it wasn’t for Cousins’ terrible attitude, he would either still be in Sacramento or he would have been traded to the Celtics for a boatload of young assets. The reason why he was traded for scraps to a desperate New Orleans team was because of his attitude.
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Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2017, 06:02:23 PM »

Offline CsBanner18

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.

This isn't monkey see, monkey do! The Cavs traded Andrew Wiggins and his rookie contract to pay Kevin Love 20M+. Yes he's helped them win a title but it can be argued that so could Wiggins AND a free agent for that 20M+ (Ryan Anderson?)

We're not making the same mistake. If we trade for PG13 it will NOT involve the #1 pick. Fultz, Smart, Brown, Zizic, BKN 18 are our future. Our win now group needs to consist of IT, AB, PG13/Hayward/Al.

Having a combination of win now vets and young guys will allow us to compete now, and if it doesn't work out in the next few years--we trade some of our vets for assets to add to the young core.
I never said that we should put together a package to get PG13 like the cavs did to get Love. I’m just saying that is what it takes to get a star in their prime, especially when you are a good team who also has young assets so you’re willing to go for it.

You can’t look at what Cousins was traded for and say all we have to give up is a lower lottery pick and buddy hield level prospect to get PG13. Cousins was traded for so little because of his terrible attitude, not his contract. My Love example was what a star get traded for when they have a full year left on their contract and they don’t have bad attitudes that gets in the way of chemistry with the team.

Never mentioned Boogie. Could care less about his attitude in relation to PG13s. In fact, I'd still take him on this team and Ainge probably would too. He was careful not to bash Cousins to the media after he was traded. I think he just knows our first priority should be a consistent scorer who can draw double teams, and take big shots in late game situations--like IT. Thats more so Hayward or PG13, rather than Cousins. But after adding a George, we'd still need a big with all the qualities of Boogie.

Btw, Love was traded for #1 cause Bron just arrived in CLE and they wanted to form a big 3. That want costed them the #1 pick. At the time we had the #6 pick (Marcus Smart) and a
slew of picks. If CLE wasn't so eager, who knows--we might've traded for Love

As for the original topic, PG13 isn't going to be traded for the #1 pick (or another superstar). IND will have to take the best offer for a player who thus far has shown a non commitment to re-signing anywhere in particular. He's not worth the #1 pick who can be retained for at least 8 years (4yrs on a rookie contract), EVEN IF he agrees to sign an extension. Its off the table.

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2017, 06:24:11 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.

This isn't monkey see, monkey do! The Cavs traded Andrew Wiggins and his rookie contract to pay Kevin Love 20M+. Yes he's helped them win a title but it can be argued that so could Wiggins AND a free agent for that 20M+ (Ryan Anderson?)

We're not making the same mistake. If we trade for PG13 it will NOT involve the #1 pick. Fultz, Smart, Brown, Zizic, BKN 18 are our future. Our win now group needs to consist of IT, AB, PG13/Hayward/Al.

Having a combination of win now vets and young guys will allow us to compete now, and if it doesn't work out in the next few years--we trade some of our vets for assets to add to the young core.
Thomas, Bradley, and Smart are all free agents in the summer of 18, you can't just wait two years.  If Boston isn't going to pay them, they should trade them now (or at least some of them), and they can't pay everyone, especially if the team isn't a contender.  If Boston adds a max level free agent this summer, that compounds the problem even more, especially if that max level free agent is not a franchise level player (news flash he isn't going to be a franchise level player).  Boston quite simply can't add free agents, keep all of its current players, and gain enough playing time to properly develop the young players.  It just isn't possible.  we already saw this year how much better Brown played after injuries got him more consistent playing time.  You compound that problem a lot more by adding another rookie guard and potentially a max level player in free agency.  And the thing is, Indiana isn't going to trade George without getting a prime asset back and I don't think Brown counts and the BKN 18 pick is just too up in the air, so that basically means Fultz.  Obviously no way you trade Fultz for George in a vacuum, but if Boston signs Hayward, then trading Fultz for George makes perfect sense.  Crowder and Bradley would be moved at some point in there as well (Crowder likely in the George trade, and Bradley to free up the room to sign Hayward and preferably for a rookie contract big man - say Saric).

This team strikes me as a real legit contender

PG - Thomas, Rozier, Jackson
SG - Hayward, Smart
SF - George, Brown
PF - Saric, Vet min F.A., Yabu, Mickey
C - Horford, Zizic
Don't understand where vets being on the team and starting somehow means that rookies and young players won't get their playing time to develop. Brown got minutes this year and will probably be this team's sixth or 7th man 25-30ng 25-30 MPG next year. Smart has been getting 30 MPG for the last 2 years off the bench to develop. Fultz most likely gets 17-20 MPG or more to learn and more the year after. There's no reason to believe that our young premier players won't get minutes develop the way Stevens wants them developed simply because older players are on the team and starting. As long as the youth is getting rotational minutes, they will develop.

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2017, 06:55:47 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Way too much for a guy with one year left on his contract. Look at the price that NOR paid for Cousins
That had nothing to do with Cousins’ contract, it has to do with his attitude and personality.

Actually, it had everything to do with his contract. SAC's management was worried that he would be eligible for the super max and didn't want to get into that situation
Actually, no it didn’t at all. The only reason SAC wouldn’t want to pay him is because of his attitude, not his game. And the only reason we didn’t empty the treasure chest for him is because Ainge didn’t want a bad personality messing up our chemistry. If you want to see a price for a star with one year left on his contract, look at what the cavs gave up for Kevin Love.

This isn't monkey see, monkey do! The Cavs traded Andrew Wiggins and his rookie contract to pay Kevin Love 20M+. Yes he's helped them win a title but it can be argued that so could Wiggins AND a free agent for that 20M+ (Ryan Anderson?)

We're not making the same mistake. If we trade for PG13 it will NOT involve the #1 pick. Fultz, Smart, Brown, Zizic, BKN 18 are our future. Our win now group needs to consist of IT, AB, PG13/Hayward/Al.

Having a combination of win now vets and young guys will allow us to compete now, and if it doesn't work out in the next few years--we trade some of our vets for assets to add to the young core.
Thomas, Bradley, and Smart are all free agents in the summer of 18, you can't just wait two years.  If Boston isn't going to pay them, they should trade them now (or at least some of them), and they can't pay everyone, especially if the team isn't a contender.  If Boston adds a max level free agent this summer, that compounds the problem even more, especially if that max level free agent is not a franchise level player (news flash he isn't going to be a franchise level player).  Boston quite simply can't add free agents, keep all of its current players, and gain enough playing time to properly develop the young players.  It just isn't possible.  we already saw this year how much better Brown played after injuries got him more consistent playing time.  You compound that problem a lot more by adding another rookie guard and potentially a max level player in free agency.  And the thing is, Indiana isn't going to trade George without getting a prime asset back and I don't think Brown counts and the BKN 18 pick is just too up in the air, so that basically means Fultz.  Obviously no way you trade Fultz for George in a vacuum, but if Boston signs Hayward, then trading Fultz for George makes perfect sense.  Crowder and Bradley would be moved at some point in there as well (Crowder likely in the George trade, and Bradley to free up the room to sign Hayward and preferably for a rookie contract big man - say Saric).

This team strikes me as a real legit contender

PG - Thomas, Rozier, Jackson
SG - Hayward, Smart
SF - George, Brown
PF - Saric, Vet min F.A., Yabu, Mickey
C - Horford, Zizic
Don't understand where vets being on the team and starting somehow means that rookies and young players won't get their playing time to develop. Brown got minutes this year and will probably be this team's sixth or 7th man 25-30ng 25-30 MPG next year. Smart has been getting 30 MPG for the last 2 years off the bench to develop. Fultz most likely gets 17-20 MPG or more to learn and more the year after. There's no reason to believe that our young premier players won't get minutes develop the way Stevens wants them developed simply because older players are on the team and starting. As long as the youth is getting rotational minutes, they will develop.

In that case we would have Thomas, Smart, Fultz, Bradley, Brown, Hayward and George on the roster. Unless George (and Brown) play at the 4 consistently there aren't enough minutes available. The only reasons that Rozier and Brown played significant minutes this year was because of injuries (Thomas, Bradley en Crowder combined add up to 43 missed games) and that we played a lot of small ball.

Still I'm not sure if Rozier and Brown are satisfied with the amount of playing time and I sincerely doubt that Fultz (a number one pick) would accept 17-20 minutes of average playing time.

What I do agree upon is that we probably shouldn't trade Fultz for George straight up.

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2017, 11:30:06 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Crowder, Zeller, and Jerebko, and the number 1 pick for Paul George, the #16, and Indiana's draft pick in 2020.

Who says no?

Anybody with a brain.

Re: #1 for Paul George
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2017, 11:49:27 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Horford, IT, PG, and Hayward isn't enough to win a title. It would be a very good team, but clearly behind Cleveland and GSW.

Makes absolutely no sense to trade our 3 young assets (Brown and the 2 picks) to put a team together that a) may not have a lot of longevity and b) isn't good enough to win a title.

OTOH, if we draft young players, as Wyc said recently, you've got them for several years at a less than max salary.

A Horford/IT core plus adding a few good players like Hayward isn't enough. We'd have a core still devoid of an elite player. IMO, the only reasonable course of action is develop Brown, Fultz, Brooklyn 18 and build around them. Those players, plus Brad Stephens and salary cap flexibility is a much more sound course than blowing everything on Hayward and George.

Disclaimer: if giving up the BRK 17 pick gets us AD, then I'd be all in on that. I wouldn't give up both picks, however. Too much chance we get a transcendent (there's that word again) talent in either this draft or the next.