Poll

What's the worst?

Chauncey Billups for Kenny Anderson
20 (22.2%)
Paul Westphal for Charlie Scott
4 (4.4%)
Joe Johnson for Tony Delk and Rodney Rogers
51 (56.7%)
Antoine Walker for Raef LaFrentz, Jiri Welsch and Chris Mills
7 (7.8%)
Danny Ainge for Joe Kleine
8 (8.9%)

Total Members Voted: 90

Author Topic: Worst trade in Celtics History?  (Read 3061 times)

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Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2017, 04:29:10 PM »

Offline saltlover

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They had two healthy bigs in KG and Big Baby -- that was not sustainable.  They traded their least broken (and thusly most valuable) of the centers (Perk) for a center who could walk in Krstic, and a small forward with maybe some untapped potential, who certainly could be immediately useful.  I'm sure if Ainge could have traded O'Neal instead, he would have.
Um no, by the time when he was traded, Perkins played and played decently. Maybe he was a broken toy in the long run, but he was clearly in a condition where he could have been a contributing member to the team that season. He did fine for the rest of the season in Oklahoma.

This was clearly a case where the Celtics valued Green over Nate Robinson, and thought Perkins for Krstic would be close to a wash.... AND they were getting a pick. Unfortunately, neither of these panned out.

He missed three weeks immediately after the trade.  He played his first game for OKC on March 14th.  There's no way OKC gives up what they gave up only to sit him for weeks of he were game-ready.  The Celtics presumably gave OKC enough information that they were good to do the deal knowing he needed to sit, but that doesn't mean he was fully healthy and ready to contribute for the rest of the season.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2017, 04:33:39 PM »

Offline footey

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I went with the Westphal trade, because unlike the others, it potentially cost us some rings.


Please explain. I don't know the history on this one

Just the obvious: Westphal made five straight all-star teams with the Suns, and averaged 21 points and 5 assists there.  The Celtics won a title in '76, but could have had more.

Red made some questionable deals in that '75 - '76 time period. The Westphal trade and moving on from Silas for Curtis Rowe were both horrible transactions. Luckily the failures didn't make Red gun shy about the moves that helped build the 80s teams.

While trading Westphal was a bad trade, I don't know that we would have won anymore championships before Bird's arrival.  Might have gotten DJ on our team sooner, though!! (trading Westphal to Seattle for him, rather than via PHX). Maybe that would have gotten us one or two more!!

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2017, 05:24:27 PM »

Offline alley oop

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Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson for Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic got to be up there too, or at least one of the suddenly weird ones.
Krstic gone, and Green missed out on our pivotal 2012 run season. Green became irrelevant eventually.

Man, it would be nice to have a big like Krstic right about now lol.

This trade isn't even close to the worst ever, and people need to let it go.  Perkins was coming off an ACL, wound up missing a few weeks post-trade, shot under 50% from the field, and was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway.  People forget that the Celtics had an urgent need for someone to play backup minutes at the 3 after Marquis Daniels suffered that terrible neck injury immediately before the trade deadline.

The Celtics were probably not getting past the Heat regardless of that trade, especially if we believe Wade would have still injured Rondo.  Perk was walking, and so instead the Celtics got back several things for both the short and long run.  Everything went wrong with those things, of course (Green's heart condition, the lockout induced Krstic to sign overseas and never return, the new salary cap made it impossible for the Celtics to replace either Green or Krstic, the 1st round pick was used on Fab Melo).  Despite that, we still made the conference finals the next year, so the team's chemistry wasn't broken beyond repair, and eventually resigned Green and then traded him for a 1st and 2nd that we have yet to receive, so while Perkins is out of the NBA, we've rebuilt and are still reaping benefits that ultimately trace back to that deal.

People really need to let that deal go.

The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left. He was 5th scoring option, so his FG% didn't matter. Had he been there Wade may never had dared do what he did to Rondo. He played in Conference Finals for the Thunder, so he was healthy.

It's true the C's were leading the EC at the time of the trade.  It's also true that Perkins played in only 12 games, and started only 7.  In those 7 starts, the Celtics went 4-3, so it's pretty fair to say that Perkins' was not very responsible for the Celtics record at the time of the trade.  That they ultimately finished third in the conference could easily have happened had Perk not been traded -- again, he missed 3 weeks immediately after the trade, so he wasn't going to have been there the entire season.  For all the narrative of how the Celtics soul was ripped from the team after that trade, they won 5 in a row after that loss in Denver the night of the trade.  It's a nice story, but probably no more rooted in fact than one that tells about how the Celtics had holes that the Perk trade tried to patch, albeit unsuccessfully, and it was those flaws that ultimately limited their season.

Also, please don't forget that the LeBron-era Heat won the Eastern Conference all four years, and they only had the best conference record one of those years.  There is little evidence in reviewing those seasons that the Heat were not the best team in the East each of those years, regardless of regular season results.

As I recall, Shaq got injured as soon as Perk got back, and J.O. was out until the playoffs, so their win/loss record after his return is misleading (assuming what you gave is true as I haven't looked it up). The memorable win after his return was their beating the Heat when the Heat were on a long winning streak, causing tears to some of the players according to Coach Spoelstra.

The following year, if Ray Allen didn't have bone spurs and Pierce a sprained knee, the winner of the C.F.'s may have been the Celtics.

I have no memory of the timing of Shaq's injury, but I'll take you at your word.  However, you continue to ignore the fact that Perk missed three weeks immediately after the trade.  With JO out, Shaq out, and Perk out, the acquisition of Krstic made even more sense.  Not to mention, as I already have, the injury to Daniels, who's 20 minutes a game could go to Jeff Green.

At the time of the trade deadline, the Celtics had 5 guys with significant injuries:

Shaq
O'Neal
Perk
Daniels
Semih Erden

That's four centers and a small forward.  They had two healthy bigs in KG and Big Baby -- that was not sustainable.  They traded their least broken (and thusly most valuable) of the centers (Perk) for a center who could walk in Krstic, and a small forward with maybe some untapped potential, who certainly could be immediately useful.  I'm sure if Ainge could have traded O'Neal instead, he would have.

The following year is irrelevant in terms of Perk's potential contributions.  He wasn't re-signing in Boston -- no way was Ainge going to give him the four year, $33 million deal that OKC regretted pretty quickly.  I only mentioned it as a counter example to the popular argument that the team's chemistry was shattered by the loss of Perkins -- clearly, it wasn't, as they went to the ECF the folllwing year, not to mention demolished the Knicks in the first round of the playoffs that year.

The trade wasn't successful in its short-term goals, since Krstic wasn't successfully assimilated by Doc and Green turned out to be just a guy.  The long-term goals also worked not-that-well, since Krstic left the US, Green had heart problems, and came back being just an overpaid guy, and Melo was a true bust if a draft pick.  We'll see what becomes of the Memphis pick that we ultimately got for Green.  But it was far from an abysmal failure.  Not every trade is black-and-white.

The only reason the Celtics championship starting 5 never lost a series was because Ainge traded Perk before that could happen.  If nothing else, fans here should be happy because the trade forever made that statement true.

This is some of what Doc Rivers said about it after the season:

Quote
Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers said Monday that the biggest fallout from the highly criticized mid-February trade that sent Kendrick Perkins to the Oklahoma City Thunder was the sudden lack of continuity between the new players and, that if he could go back, he would have waited until the end of the season to make the trade instead.

"I would wait until after the year was over. I'll put it that way," Rivers told Boston sports radio WEEI (850 AM). "I do think Jeff Green has a chance to be a starter for us in the future and a hell of a basketball player, and [Nenad] Krstic can help, but making that trade at the time we made that trade, that made it very tough for us. And not only that, we added other pieces as well that we tried to fit in, so it was just a lot of moving parts to a team that the advantage that we had was that we had continuity, everybody else was new. Chicago was new and the Heat were new. They couldn't fall back on what we could fall back on with our starting five, and once we made that trade, we took that advantage away."
...
While there was speculation that removing Perkins hindered the team's chemistry, Rivers suggested it was the on-the-court familiarity that hurt the Celtics the most. While the successful starting lineup of Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Perkins had been intact for the majority of the last four seasons, Perkins' departure had a trickle-down effect, eventually affecting the club's offense more than Rivers and Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge originally anticipated.

"Well, it was more not that the trust went away, the know-how went away, the continuity went away," Rivers said. "That's what the trade affected more than anything. Obviously [Perkins] was great to our team and all of that, but it was more that you had new guys playing different positions and you had a floor guy who could literally reach back into a playbook and throw out something that was three or four years old and they all knew it, when Perk was there. When you lose Perk, you take that one guy out of that starting lineup. Now there's the fifth guy who doesn't know your offense three years ago. He only knows what he knows since he's been there, and that limited our group. With Rondo, because the way teams guard him, you need a massive playbook and that took more away from it than we thought."

Rivers later suggested that the instant chemistry that developed between Shaquille O'Neal and the Celtics' other four usual starters gave the team the confidence it needed to move Perkins, and it did so under the assumption that O'Neal's right Achilles and calf injuries would heal in a matter of weeks, as opposed to lingering for months and eventually allowing O'Neal to play just 12 minutes in the postseason.
...
http://www.espn.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6555870

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2017, 05:27:17 PM »

Offline JSD

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Great response SL - I have been banging that drum for years.

I HATED the LaFrentz trade then and I still hate it today. Raef had horrible knees, was signed for a five additional years at $50M (an exorbitant contract in those days) and we were trading one of our franchise cornerstones and emotional leader. DA wanted to assert his authority in starting his new job and he did it in a catastrophic way.

From a complex.com article about the 25 worst contracts in NBA history (Raef at #9):
Quote
The problem was the injuries and the ineffectiveness of LaFrentz. He was a good player, but sometimes teams forget how long of a commitment seven years is. Somehow the Mavericks were able to offload his contract in 2003 in a trade to the Boston Celtics that sent Antoine Walker to Dallas

I am not saying Antoine was untradable, just that a trade for almost any other player in the NBA at the time would have been a better deal. Letting Walker leave as a FA the next season would have been much better.

In retrospect, you should be thankful for LaFrentz, his contract lead to

Ratliff
Then KG
Then the BKN picks


Not sure we'd really want to change how things went down.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2017, 05:33:42 PM »

Offline celts10

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I've always felt the real issue with the Perk trade wasn't necessarily on the court, but off the court. Those guys loved him and KG admitted at the time that it felt like losing a family member. I just think that it took a toll on the core guys emotionally behind the scenes and they never really recovered from it down the stretch that year.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2017, 05:33:55 PM »

Offline JSD

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Quote
The Celtics, who lost to the Nets, four games to two, in last season's Eastern Conference finals, sent Kenny Anderson, Vitaly Potapenko and Joseph Forte to Seattle for Baker, a Connecticut native, and the backup guard Shammond Williams.


Disgusting.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/sports/pro-basketball-baker-goes-to-boston-in-a-five-player-trade.html

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2017, 05:39:12 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Great response SL - I have been banging that drum for years.

I HATED the LaFrentz trade then and I still hate it today. Raef had horrible knees, was signed for a five additional years at $50M (an exorbitant contract in those days) and we were trading one of our franchise cornerstones and emotional leader. DA wanted to assert his authority in starting his new job and he did it in a catastrophic way.

From a complex.com article about the 25 worst contracts in NBA history (Raef at #9):
Quote
The problem was the injuries and the ineffectiveness of LaFrentz. He was a good player, but sometimes teams forget how long of a commitment seven years is. Somehow the Mavericks were able to offload his contract in 2003 in a trade to the Boston Celtics that sent Antoine Walker to Dallas

I am not saying Antoine was untradable, just that a trade for almost any other player in the NBA at the time would have been a better deal. Letting Walker leave as a FA the next season would have been much better.

In retrospect, you should be thankful for LaFrentz, his contract lead to

Ratliff
Then KG
Then the BKN picks


Not sure we'd really want to change how things went down.

I guess and figured this would come up, but there were probably better ways to eventually get KG than taking on 5 years of near-max money for an essentially useless player (in exchange for your all-star forward).

On the surface, the deal was atrocious, regardless of how you felt about Antoine as a player. Ainge was a bad gm back in his first couple of years; luckily, he learned on the job and was able to draft Rajon and then assemble an incredible championship team. I hope he is our gm until he dies.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2017, 09:54:09 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Trading the 8th pick in the 1999 Draft for Potapenko was lousy. The Cavs took Andre Miller; the Suns took Shaun Marion with the next pick, followed by Jason Terry.


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Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2017, 10:00:22 PM »

Offline JSD

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Great response SL - I have been banging that drum for years.

I HATED the LaFrentz trade then and I still hate it today. Raef had horrible knees, was signed for a five additional years at $50M (an exorbitant contract in those days) and we were trading one of our franchise cornerstones and emotional leader. DA wanted to assert his authority in starting his new job and he did it in a catastrophic way.

From a complex.com article about the 25 worst contracts in NBA history (Raef at #9):
Quote
The problem was the injuries and the ineffectiveness of LaFrentz. He was a good player, but sometimes teams forget how long of a commitment seven years is. Somehow the Mavericks were able to offload his contract in 2003 in a trade to the Boston Celtics that sent Antoine Walker to Dallas

I am not saying Antoine was untradable, just that a trade for almost any other player in the NBA at the time would have been a better deal. Letting Walker leave as a FA the next season would have been much better.

In retrospect, you should be thankful for LaFrentz, his contract lead to

Ratliff
Then KG
Then the BKN picks


Not sure we'd really want to change how things went down.

I guess and figured this would come up, but there were probably better ways to eventually get KG than taking on 5 years of near-max money for an essentially useless player (in exchange for your all-star forward).

On the surface, the deal was atrocious, regardless of how you felt about Antoine as a player. Ainge was a bad gm back in his first couple of years; luckily, he learned on the job and was able to draft Rajon and then assemble an incredible championship team. I hope he is our gm until he dies.

Oh, your point is totally valid, it was a terrible trade. But Ratliff and his expiring deal was a highly valuable asset back then and landed us KG, so in retrospect you still allow everything to play out the way it did. At least that's my take.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2017, 07:36:14 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson for Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic got to be up there too, or at least one of the suddenly weird ones.
Krstic gone, and Green missed out on our pivotal 2012 run season. Green became irrelevant eventually.

Man, it would be nice to have a big like Krstic right about now lol.

This trade isn't even close to the worst ever, and people need to let it go.  Perkins was coming off an ACL, wound up missing a few weeks post-trade, shot under 50% from the field, and was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway.  People forget that the Celtics had an urgent need for someone to play backup minutes at the 3 after Marquis Daniels suffered that terrible neck injury immediately before the trade deadline.

The Celtics were probably not getting past the Heat regardless of that trade, especially if we believe Wade would have still injured Rondo.  Perk was walking, and so instead the Celtics got back several things for both the short and long run.  Everything went wrong with those things, of course (Green's heart condition, the lockout induced Krstic to sign overseas and never return, the new salary cap made it impossible for the Celtics to replace either Green or Krstic, the 1st round pick was used on Fab Melo).  Despite that, we still made the conference finals the next year, so the team's chemistry wasn't broken beyond repair, and eventually resigned Green and then traded him for a 1st and 2nd that we have yet to receive, so while Perkins is out of the NBA, we've rebuilt and are still reaping benefits that ultimately trace back to that deal.

People really need to let that deal go.

The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left. He was 5th scoring option, so his FG% didn't matter. Had he been there Wade may never had dared do what he did to Rondo. He played in Conference Finals for the Thunder, so he was healthy.

It's true the C's were leading the EC at the time of the trade.  It's also true that Perkins played in only 12 games, and started only 7.  In those 7 starts, the Celtics went 4-3, so it's pretty fair to say that Perkins' was not very responsible for the Celtics record at the time of the trade.  That they ultimately finished third in the conference could easily have happened had Perk not been traded -- again, he missed 3 weeks immediately after the trade, so he wasn't going to have been there the entire season.  For all the narrative of how the Celtics soul was ripped from the team after that trade, they won 5 in a row after that loss in Denver the night of the trade.  It's a nice story, but probably no more rooted in fact than one that tells about how the Celtics had holes that the Perk trade tried to patch, albeit unsuccessfully, and it was those flaws that ultimately limited their season.

Also, please don't forget that the LeBron-era Heat won the Eastern Conference all four years, and they only had the best conference record one of those years.  There is little evidence in reviewing those seasons that the Heat were not the best team in the East each of those years, regardless of regular season results.

As I recall, Shaq got injured as soon as Perk got back, and J.O. was out until the playoffs, so their win/loss record after his return is misleading (assuming what you gave is true as I haven't looked it up). The memorable win after his return was their beating the Heat when the Heat were on a long winning streak, causing tears to some of the players according to Coach Spoelstra.

The following year, if Ray Allen didn't have bone spurs and Pierce a sprained knee, the winner of the C.F.'s may have been the Celtics.
But that information was only given as context for the C's record when you said, "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made." Perkins had absolutely nothing to do with amassing that record so your point is irrelevant.

Meh, what I wrote is totally relevant to the rest of his paragraph.
No it wasn't. You wrote "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left" which implies that the Perkins trade was the reason for the loss of their interior defense and chemistry but Perkins didn't play for the team when they amassed the conference leading-record.

What you wrote was completely wrong and misleading.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2017, 11:46:00 AM »

Offline alley oop

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Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson for Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic got to be up there too, or at least one of the suddenly weird ones.
Krstic gone, and Green missed out on our pivotal 2012 run season. Green became irrelevant eventually.

Man, it would be nice to have a big like Krstic right about now lol.

This trade isn't even close to the worst ever, and people need to let it go.  Perkins was coming off an ACL, wound up missing a few weeks post-trade, shot under 50% from the field, and was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway.  People forget that the Celtics had an urgent need for someone to play backup minutes at the 3 after Marquis Daniels suffered that terrible neck injury immediately before the trade deadline.

The Celtics were probably not getting past the Heat regardless of that trade, especially if we believe Wade would have still injured Rondo.  Perk was walking, and so instead the Celtics got back several things for both the short and long run.  Everything went wrong with those things, of course (Green's heart condition, the lockout induced Krstic to sign overseas and never return, the new salary cap made it impossible for the Celtics to replace either Green or Krstic, the 1st round pick was used on Fab Melo).  Despite that, we still made the conference finals the next year, so the team's chemistry wasn't broken beyond repair, and eventually resigned Green and then traded him for a 1st and 2nd that we have yet to receive, so while Perkins is out of the NBA, we've rebuilt and are still reaping benefits that ultimately trace back to that deal.

People really need to let that deal go.

The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left. He was 5th scoring option, so his FG% didn't matter. Had he been there Wade may never had dared do what he did to Rondo. He played in Conference Finals for the Thunder, so he was healthy.

It's true the C's were leading the EC at the time of the trade.  It's also true that Perkins played in only 12 games, and started only 7.  In those 7 starts, the Celtics went 4-3, so it's pretty fair to say that Perkins' was not very responsible for the Celtics record at the time of the trade.  That they ultimately finished third in the conference could easily have happened had Perk not been traded -- again, he missed 3 weeks immediately after the trade, so he wasn't going to have been there the entire season.  For all the narrative of how the Celtics soul was ripped from the team after that trade, they won 5 in a row after that loss in Denver the night of the trade.  It's a nice story, but probably no more rooted in fact than one that tells about how the Celtics had holes that the Perk trade tried to patch, albeit unsuccessfully, and it was those flaws that ultimately limited their season.

Also, please don't forget that the LeBron-era Heat won the Eastern Conference all four years, and they only had the best conference record one of those years.  There is little evidence in reviewing those seasons that the Heat were not the best team in the East each of those years, regardless of regular season results.

As I recall, Shaq got injured as soon as Perk got back, and J.O. was out until the playoffs, so their win/loss record after his return is misleading (assuming what you gave is true as I haven't looked it up). The memorable win after his return was their beating the Heat when the Heat were on a long winning streak, causing tears to some of the players according to Coach Spoelstra.

The following year, if Ray Allen didn't have bone spurs and Pierce a sprained knee, the winner of the C.F.'s may have been the Celtics.
But that information was only given as context for the C's record when you said, "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made." Perkins had absolutely nothing to do with amassing that record so your point is irrelevant.

Meh, what I wrote is totally relevant to the rest of his paragraph.
No it wasn't. You wrote "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left" which implies that the Perkins trade was the reason for the loss of their interior defense and chemistry but Perkins didn't play for the team when they amassed the conference leading-record.

What you wrote was completely wrong and misleading.

You're missing the point (maybe deliberately). Nenad Krstic wasn't an interior defender. They missed the interior defense and chemistry they had with Perkins the rest of the season and playoffs, especially with Shaq gone.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 12:03:11 PM by alley oop »

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2017, 12:10:47 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson for Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic got to be up there too, or at least one of the suddenly weird ones.
Krstic gone, and Green missed out on our pivotal 2012 run season. Green became irrelevant eventually.

Man, it would be nice to have a big like Krstic right about now lol.

This trade isn't even close to the worst ever, and people need to let it go.  Perkins was coming off an ACL, wound up missing a few weeks post-trade, shot under 50% from the field, and was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway.  People forget that the Celtics had an urgent need for someone to play backup minutes at the 3 after Marquis Daniels suffered that terrible neck injury immediately before the trade deadline.

The Celtics were probably not getting past the Heat regardless of that trade, especially if we believe Wade would have still injured Rondo.  Perk was walking, and so instead the Celtics got back several things for both the short and long run.  Everything went wrong with those things, of course (Green's heart condition, the lockout induced Krstic to sign overseas and never return, the new salary cap made it impossible for the Celtics to replace either Green or Krstic, the 1st round pick was used on Fab Melo).  Despite that, we still made the conference finals the next year, so the team's chemistry wasn't broken beyond repair, and eventually resigned Green and then traded him for a 1st and 2nd that we have yet to receive, so while Perkins is out of the NBA, we've rebuilt and are still reaping benefits that ultimately trace back to that deal.

People really need to let that deal go.

The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left. He was 5th scoring option, so his FG% didn't matter. Had he been there Wade may never had dared do what he did to Rondo. He played in Conference Finals for the Thunder, so he was healthy.

It's true the C's were leading the EC at the time of the trade.  It's also true that Perkins played in only 12 games, and started only 7.  In those 7 starts, the Celtics went 4-3, so it's pretty fair to say that Perkins' was not very responsible for the Celtics record at the time of the trade.  That they ultimately finished third in the conference could easily have happened had Perk not been traded -- again, he missed 3 weeks immediately after the trade, so he wasn't going to have been there the entire season.  For all the narrative of how the Celtics soul was ripped from the team after that trade, they won 5 in a row after that loss in Denver the night of the trade.  It's a nice story, but probably no more rooted in fact than one that tells about how the Celtics had holes that the Perk trade tried to patch, albeit unsuccessfully, and it was those flaws that ultimately limited their season.

Also, please don't forget that the LeBron-era Heat won the Eastern Conference all four years, and they only had the best conference record one of those years.  There is little evidence in reviewing those seasons that the Heat were not the best team in the East each of those years, regardless of regular season results.

As I recall, Shaq got injured as soon as Perk got back, and J.O. was out until the playoffs, so their win/loss record after his return is misleading (assuming what you gave is true as I haven't looked it up). The memorable win after his return was their beating the Heat when the Heat were on a long winning streak, causing tears to some of the players according to Coach Spoelstra.

The following year, if Ray Allen didn't have bone spurs and Pierce a sprained knee, the winner of the C.F.'s may have been the Celtics.
But that information was only given as context for the C's record when you said, "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made." Perkins had absolutely nothing to do with amassing that record so your point is irrelevant.

Meh, what I wrote is totally relevant to the rest of his paragraph.
No it wasn't. You wrote "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left" which implies that the Perkins trade was the reason for the loss of their interior defense and chemistry but Perkins didn't play for the team when they amassed the conference leading-record.

What you wrote was completely wrong and misleading.

You're missing the point (and maybe deliberately). Nenad Krstic wasn't an interior defender. They missed the interior defense and chemistry they had with Perkins the rest of the rest of the season and playoffs, especially with Shaq gone.
I'm not missing the point, you're now changing what you wrote. Or maybe what you wrote isn't what you meant.

What you wrote made it sound like you were crediting Perkins with contributing to the C's being the #1 team in the East at the deadline, but he didn't play when they amassed that record. If that's not what you meant, fine but then correct yourself.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2017, 12:44:40 PM »

Offline alley oop

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Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson for Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic got to be up there too, or at least one of the suddenly weird ones.
Krstic gone, and Green missed out on our pivotal 2012 run season. Green became irrelevant eventually.

Man, it would be nice to have a big like Krstic right about now lol.

This trade isn't even close to the worst ever, and people need to let it go.  Perkins was coming off an ACL, wound up missing a few weeks post-trade, shot under 50% from the field, and was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway.  People forget that the Celtics had an urgent need for someone to play backup minutes at the 3 after Marquis Daniels suffered that terrible neck injury immediately before the trade deadline.

The Celtics were probably not getting past the Heat regardless of that trade, especially if we believe Wade would have still injured Rondo.  Perk was walking, and so instead the Celtics got back several things for both the short and long run.  Everything went wrong with those things, of course (Green's heart condition, the lockout induced Krstic to sign overseas and never return, the new salary cap made it impossible for the Celtics to replace either Green or Krstic, the 1st round pick was used on Fab Melo).  Despite that, we still made the conference finals the next year, so the team's chemistry wasn't broken beyond repair, and eventually resigned Green and then traded him for a 1st and 2nd that we have yet to receive, so while Perkins is out of the NBA, we've rebuilt and are still reaping benefits that ultimately trace back to that deal.

People really need to let that deal go.

The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left. He was 5th scoring option, so his FG% didn't matter. Had he been there Wade may never had dared do what he did to Rondo. He played in Conference Finals for the Thunder, so he was healthy.

It's true the C's were leading the EC at the time of the trade.  It's also true that Perkins played in only 12 games, and started only 7.  In those 7 starts, the Celtics went 4-3, so it's pretty fair to say that Perkins' was not very responsible for the Celtics record at the time of the trade.  That they ultimately finished third in the conference could easily have happened had Perk not been traded -- again, he missed 3 weeks immediately after the trade, so he wasn't going to have been there the entire season.  For all the narrative of how the Celtics soul was ripped from the team after that trade, they won 5 in a row after that loss in Denver the night of the trade.  It's a nice story, but probably no more rooted in fact than one that tells about how the Celtics had holes that the Perk trade tried to patch, albeit unsuccessfully, and it was those flaws that ultimately limited their season.

Also, please don't forget that the LeBron-era Heat won the Eastern Conference all four years, and they only had the best conference record one of those years.  There is little evidence in reviewing those seasons that the Heat were not the best team in the East each of those years, regardless of regular season results.

As I recall, Shaq got injured as soon as Perk got back, and J.O. was out until the playoffs, so their win/loss record after his return is misleading (assuming what you gave is true as I haven't looked it up). The memorable win after his return was their beating the Heat when the Heat were on a long winning streak, causing tears to some of the players according to Coach Spoelstra.

The following year, if Ray Allen didn't have bone spurs and Pierce a sprained knee, the winner of the C.F.'s may have been the Celtics.
But that information was only given as context for the C's record when you said, "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made." Perkins had absolutely nothing to do with amassing that record so your point is irrelevant.

Meh, what I wrote is totally relevant to the rest of his paragraph.
No it wasn't. You wrote "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left" which implies that the Perkins trade was the reason for the loss of their interior defense and chemistry but Perkins didn't play for the team when they amassed the conference leading-record.

What you wrote was completely wrong and misleading.

You're missing the point (and maybe deliberately). Nenad Krstic wasn't an interior defender. They missed the interior defense and chemistry they had with Perkins the rest of the rest of the season and playoffs, especially with Shaq gone.
I'm not missing the point, you're now changing what you wrote. Or maybe what you wrote isn't what you meant.

What you wrote made it sound like you were crediting Perkins with contributing to the C's being the #1 team in the East at the deadline, but he didn't play when they amassed that record. If that's not what you meant, fine but then correct yourself.

You left out my original quote. You're either trolling or extremely dense. We're done.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:07:11 PM by alley oop »

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2017, 12:53:47 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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You're missing the point (maybe deliberately). Nenad Krstic wasn't an interior defender. They missed the interior defense and chemistry they had with Perkins the rest of the season and playoffs, especially with Shaq gone.

I was fine with trading Perk at that time.  We had the best record and were playing just fine without Perkins playing a minute.  Perk hardly played when he got to OKC, then they overpaid him with a big contract.  The mistake that was made, if there was one, was assuming Shaq would be healthy.

It ended up being a nothing for nothing trade.  Perk really did nothing for OKC and Green, Krstic did nothing for the Celtics.  OKC also got Nate Robinson who they ended up paying off to leave and we also got a 2012 first round Clipper's pick that ended up being Sullinger.  This trade had no real winner but didn't have a loser either.  If anything, I think Boston came out ahead as Green and Sullinger at least had some value over time.

Re: Worst trade in Celtics History?
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 07:41:05 AM »

Offline Big333223

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Kendrick Perkins and Nate Robinson for Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic got to be up there too, or at least one of the suddenly weird ones.
Krstic gone, and Green missed out on our pivotal 2012 run season. Green became irrelevant eventually.

Man, it would be nice to have a big like Krstic right about now lol.

This trade isn't even close to the worst ever, and people need to let it go.  Perkins was coming off an ACL, wound up missing a few weeks post-trade, shot under 50% from the field, and was going to leave as a free agent after the season anyway.  People forget that the Celtics had an urgent need for someone to play backup minutes at the 3 after Marquis Daniels suffered that terrible neck injury immediately before the trade deadline.

The Celtics were probably not getting past the Heat regardless of that trade, especially if we believe Wade would have still injured Rondo.  Perk was walking, and so instead the Celtics got back several things for both the short and long run.  Everything went wrong with those things, of course (Green's heart condition, the lockout induced Krstic to sign overseas and never return, the new salary cap made it impossible for the Celtics to replace either Green or Krstic, the 1st round pick was used on Fab Melo).  Despite that, we still made the conference finals the next year, so the team's chemistry wasn't broken beyond repair, and eventually resigned Green and then traded him for a 1st and 2nd that we have yet to receive, so while Perkins is out of the NBA, we've rebuilt and are still reaping benefits that ultimately trace back to that deal.

People really need to let that deal go.

The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left. He was 5th scoring option, so his FG% didn't matter. Had he been there Wade may never had dared do what he did to Rondo. He played in Conference Finals for the Thunder, so he was healthy.

It's true the C's were leading the EC at the time of the trade.  It's also true that Perkins played in only 12 games, and started only 7.  In those 7 starts, the Celtics went 4-3, so it's pretty fair to say that Perkins' was not very responsible for the Celtics record at the time of the trade.  That they ultimately finished third in the conference could easily have happened had Perk not been traded -- again, he missed 3 weeks immediately after the trade, so he wasn't going to have been there the entire season.  For all the narrative of how the Celtics soul was ripped from the team after that trade, they won 5 in a row after that loss in Denver the night of the trade.  It's a nice story, but probably no more rooted in fact than one that tells about how the Celtics had holes that the Perk trade tried to patch, albeit unsuccessfully, and it was those flaws that ultimately limited their season.

Also, please don't forget that the LeBron-era Heat won the Eastern Conference all four years, and they only had the best conference record one of those years.  There is little evidence in reviewing those seasons that the Heat were not the best team in the East each of those years, regardless of regular season results.

As I recall, Shaq got injured as soon as Perk got back, and J.O. was out until the playoffs, so their win/loss record after his return is misleading (assuming what you gave is true as I haven't looked it up). The memorable win after his return was their beating the Heat when the Heat were on a long winning streak, causing tears to some of the players according to Coach Spoelstra.

The following year, if Ray Allen didn't have bone spurs and Pierce a sprained knee, the winner of the C.F.'s may have been the Celtics.
But that information was only given as context for the C's record when you said, "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made." Perkins had absolutely nothing to do with amassing that record so your point is irrelevant.

Meh, what I wrote is totally relevant to the rest of his paragraph.
No it wasn't. You wrote "The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left" which implies that the Perkins trade was the reason for the loss of their interior defense and chemistry but Perkins didn't play for the team when they amassed the conference leading-record.

What you wrote was completely wrong and misleading.

You're missing the point (and maybe deliberately). Nenad Krstic wasn't an interior defender. They missed the interior defense and chemistry they had with Perkins the rest of the rest of the season and playoffs, especially with Shaq gone.
I'm not missing the point, you're now changing what you wrote. Or maybe what you wrote isn't what you meant.

What you wrote made it sound like you were crediting Perkins with contributing to the C's being the #1 team in the East at the deadline, but he didn't play when they amassed that record. If that's not what you meant, fine but then correct yourself.

You left out my original quote. You're either trolling or extremely dense. We're done.
lol. Your original quote is quoted above. Here it is again:

Quote
The C's were leading the E.C. when the trade was made. They lost their interior defense and chemistry when he left
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 07:46:12 AM by Big333223 »