Poll

Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations?

He is totally exceeding expectations.
11 (11.1%)
He is meeting expectations.
42 (42.4%)
He is not meeting expectations but he's within range.
38 (38.4%)
He is nowhere near meeting expectations.
8 (8.1%)

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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #150 on: April 25, 2017, 04:49:33 PM »

Offline mahcussmaht

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No where near for me.

His elite defense was expected and he provides that but thought his offense would be a lot better by now. I'd still say in a typical redo of average drafts he would still go in a top 10s so he isn't a bust. A player with his physical tools and instinct should be better on offense with work.
It's not fair to do a draft placement redo, because out of 60 random selections, there's always going to be a handful of random players who succeed.  We were very lucky to get a player who can play on an NBA bench.  I am curious who you would be he 10 guys taken ahead of him in a redo other than the obvious locks (Embiid, Gordon, Saric, Randle and Wiggins).

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #151 on: April 25, 2017, 05:05:28 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I love his KG get in the opponents head ,  take him out of his game. .....fun fun stuff

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #152 on: April 25, 2017, 05:16:49 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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No where near for me.

His elite defense was expected and he provides that but thought his offense would be a lot better by now. I'd still say in a typical redo of average drafts he would still go in a top 10s so he isn't a bust. A player with his physical tools and instinct should be better on offense with work.
It's not fair to do a draft placement redo, because out of 60 random selections, there's always going to be a handful of random players who succeed.  We were very lucky to get a player who can play on an NBA bench.  I am curious who you would be he 10 guys taken ahead of him in a redo other than the obvious locks (Embiid, Gordon, Saric, Randle and Wiggins).

Lol nobody considers Randle a lock ahead of him. Randle is really struggling and was losing minutes because his defense was that bad. Nance has actually consistently outplayed Randle.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #153 on: April 25, 2017, 05:42:22 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Hey slightly off topic but Andrew Harrison (who by all rights should be a senior at Kentucky I think) is playing some significant quality minutes in Memphis against the Spurs in the playoffs right now.

That means he's better than Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, and J Randle. I mean do you have any idea how huge it is for a young guard to play quality minutes on a playoff team?

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #154 on: April 25, 2017, 05:45:17 PM »

Offline feckless

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Without various cop out answers like "The expectations have always been unfair" or something like that where do you rank Marcus Smart?

To me he's a sixth man via his tough play and defense. Yes he tries very hard all the time, but that's not good enough. He wasn't drafted 6th to be a 6th man. He as supposed to be beating out Avery Bradley by now and it's not even close.

He's a great defender and that's all he is. You don't try to draft Bruce Bowen or something with the 6th pick.

I think the expectations were...by the third year....a solid starter in this league. A good offensive player. A good passer/playmaker.

He's nothing like that. He's just a  try hard intense player who has a knack for showing up big in tough spots. Not good enough.

I respect him but I think he's a pick that is a missed opportunity.

Smart is better than Bradley.
Not at basketball though

At What?

Not defense--not shooting--not decision making--not moving without the ball--maybe passing but when you add in decision making on forced passes Smart is not better than Bradley at any part of the game.
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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #155 on: April 25, 2017, 06:03:38 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out.

This thread is about expectations. So looking back at Smart's draft profile, strengths/weaknesses, of your favorite draft site you will find your answer. Coming out of college Smart was labeled a poor shooter but good finisher around the rim that got to the free throw line a lot. An average playmaker with relatively low bball iq, that didn't have as much pick and roll experience as one would like but good at posting up and did so at a rate higher than most small forwards. Defensively he had good anticipation skills for streals and blocks and his strength allowed him to guard multiple positions. His intangibles rated highly, i.e. hustle and timely plays though tends to flop and get over emotional with opposing players.

This sounds like almost the same player he is today. Shooting still bad, finishing at rim and free throw attempts worse as he isn't able to bully his way to the rim like he did in college. I'd argue his playmaking skills, passing and ball handling have improved to the point where he is servicable running the point on pick and roll and getting the ball to others in scoring position. His defense and intangibles are probably better than advertised. He makes some ridiculus steals and hustle plays. He still flops but seems to be starting to get the benefit of the doubt from the refs. Still is overly emotional and has a tendency to get in bouts of machismo with opposing players, but not usually to the detriment of the team. Actually, this might bring more fire to the team.

So has he met expectations?

 I'd say mostly. His strengths are greater than advertised (defense,intangibles)his weakness are a mixed bag. Scoring is still bad, probably worse, but his passing is better and his flops and outburst are positives not negatives. People probably want to see more growth from a high lottery pick but sometimes you get exactly what you bought. And if you highly value offense, like the OP, well... then you're probably disappointed but given his skill set coming out of college, shouldn't have had high expectations to begin with.

You are right ,and I think Smart haters also understand this.


At this moment Smart is fine, he is playing 30 minutes on a good team

But I think what Smart pessimists are trying to convey is that he cannot be a starter .......he is not that type of player

Of course we all love high octane energy guys who do the dirty work.

We all know he can do that, but at his current style , no way he is a starter where as guys like Randle, Gordon, Payton, even though they might to be as important as Smart is to a contender , they can eventually be no doubt starters because they can score or they can be efficient offensive players.

No doubt Smart is a fantastic player to have on the team.....but at this moment that is what he is,

If he starts, the team you have will most likely suffer or is suffering to the point where he needs to be a starter.

On the flip side, I think he can start on this Celtics team as well along side IT. Although if a better one dimensional shooter comes along, he can easily be thrown back  to the bench.

Its all on Smart to improve his shooting and become better at driving to the rim.

He doesnt do both well at all right now.

Do you have a link? Cause I have one from Draft Express. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2xqmw8NHco

It literally says he can attack the rim, Size and Strength, Passing Instincts, Defense, and Competitiveness. Those are his strengths. It also mentions he's pretty decent on isolations.

He was a tier 2 prospect on Chad Ford's board, which is based on Front Office Exec's assumptions on a player. I really don't appreciate people rewriting history on Smart's expectation. I can even post old threads to show what people truly thought of Marcus Smart. I think it's really unfair that people just make stuff up to suit their argument.

I love Smart. We really really need him for the future. I hope he improves because it will hurt us if he doesn't. He has been a disappointment thus far in terms on progress for me. But what do I know. I mean I created a thread saying we would beat the Bulls in 7 games after we were down 0-2. If you guys think that I'm bias or emotional, then you just don't read what I usually say.

I'm confused. Who are you responding to? Aren't we we giving him very similar strengths and weaknesses? I think we read the same draft express thing.... sorry I didn't post the link and got you all flummoxed.

His strengths are still strengths, he's probably even improved them, except for driving to the hoop. He's not good at that.  I expected his passing to be better, it was bad at first but he's improved this in his 3rd year. So, as long as you didn't expect him to be a good shooter, which he was never advertised as, he has pretty much lived up to his billing.

If he is able to improve his catch and shoot, which seems somewhat reasonable based on his improved free throw shooting, and get back to being effective driving to the rim then he will become the mythical "starter" that the bashers say he isn't.

I like him. He does some truly awesome unique things on the court. I think he is a terrific component to what could be a championship squad. He could even be a starter depending on the skill sets of the other starters. The starter argument is dumb and narrow, completely dependent on who the other players are.....
 

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #156 on: April 25, 2017, 06:16:32 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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Hey slightly off topic but Andrew Harrison (who by all rights should be a senior at Kentucky I think) is playing some significant quality minutes in Memphis against the Spurs in the playoffs right now.

That means he's better than Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, and J Randle. I mean do you have any idea how huge it is for a young guard to play quality minutes on a playoff team?

Memphis is is short on bodies without Allen and Parsons, starting sg and sf. Insert Carter and Randolph as starters and that bench gets really thing. Not Gordon, Payton, or Randles fault they got drafted by bad teams with poor management.
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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #157 on: April 25, 2017, 07:55:44 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Without various cop out answers like "The expectations have always been unfair" or something like that where do you rank Marcus Smart?

To me he's a sixth man via his tough play and defense. Yes he tries very hard all the time, but that's not good enough. He wasn't drafted 6th to be a 6th man. He as supposed to be beating out Avery Bradley by now and it's not even close.

He's a great defender and that's all he is. You don't try to draft Bruce Bowen or something with the 6th pick.

I think the expectations were...by the third year....a solid starter in this league. A good offensive player. A good passer/playmaker.

He's nothing like that. He's just a  try hard intense player who has a knack for showing up big in tough spots. Not good enough.

I respect him but I think he's a pick that is a missed opportunity.

Smart is better than Bradley.
Not at basketball though

At What?

Not defense--not shooting--not decision making--not moving without the ball--maybe passing but when you add in decision making on forced passes Smart is not better than Bradley at any part of the game.
Smart is a more versatile defender. Avery is better on-ball, but is actually pretty mediocre as a team defender.

Smart is also a much better decision-maker and passer. He has better court vision, a better handle, and most importantly has been more reliable in the playoffs.

Every year, Smart has upped his game come playoff time while AB has proven himself incredibly unreliable come playoff time. Every year, going all the way back to the big 3 era. He got hurt his first year in the playoffs, second year he was a no-show until the 4th quarter of our last game. He was mediocre against the Cavs, got hurt again, last season in game one, and in this series hes had 1 good game and 3 bad ones.

AB is better today for sure, but Id rather keep Smart. I think he will be cheaper and ultimately more valuable down the road.
Quote from: George W. Bush
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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #158 on: April 25, 2017, 10:21:34 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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No where near for me.

His elite defense was expected and he provides that but thought his offense would be a lot better by now. I'd still say in a typical redo of average drafts he would still go in a top 10s so he isn't a bust. A player with his physical tools and instinct should be better on offense with work.
It's not fair to do a draft placement redo, because out of 60 random selections, there's always going to be a handful of random players who succeed.  We were very lucky to get a player who can play on an NBA bench.  I am curious who you would be he 10 guys taken ahead of him in a redo other than the obvious locks (Embiid, Gordon, Saric, Randle and Wiggins).
Just to be clear I wrote he is still in the top 10, not out of top ten in a redo. Guys in a draft redo I'd put above Smart right now are Wiggins, Embid, Parker, Nurk, and Jok for sure. Guys you could argue for but I prefer Smart over them are Randle, LaVine, Harris, Capela, and Clarkson.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #159 on: April 25, 2017, 10:40:43 PM »

Offline celtics2030

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No where near for me.

His elite defense was expected and he provides that but thought his offense would be a lot better by now. I'd still say in a typical redo of average drafts he would still go in a top 10s so he isn't a bust. A player with his physical tools and instinct should be better on offense with work.
It's not fair to do a draft placement redo, because out of 60 random selections, there's always going to be a handful of random players who succeed.  We were very lucky to get a player who can play on an NBA bench.  I am curious who you would be he 10 guys taken ahead of him in a redo other than the obvious locks (Embiid, Gordon, Saric, Randle and Wiggins).
Just to be clear I wrote he is still in the top 10, not out of top ten in a redo. Guys in a draft redo I'd put above Smart right now are Wiggins, Embid, Parker, Nurk, and Jok for sure. Guys you could argue for but I prefer Smart over them are Randle, LaVine, Harris, Capela, and Clarkson.

Jordan Clarkson is a bad player.

Elfrid Payton for one is better than him , way better. Jordan Clarkson is a guy who has tunnel vision at point guard. He doesn't pass at all, and he is an average scorer at best.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2017, 02:13:20 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Hey slightly off topic but Andrew Harrison (who by all rights should be a senior at Kentucky I think) is playing some significant quality minutes in Memphis against the Spurs in the playoffs right now.

That means he's better than Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, and J Randle. I mean do you have any idea how huge it is for a young guard to play quality minutes on a playoff team?

Good for Andrew getting his chance.

I see your sarcasm laden in that comment. Getting minutes on a playoff team is clearly an indicator of talent but it's not the only one. I'd say in Smart's case, his defense against Butler is a pretty good indicator, game 3 where he ran the offense is a pretty good indicator and the fact that he's been doing it since his rookie year is a good indicator as well.

The only thing to complain about with Smart are his shooting numbers. Situation matters a lot with him at the moment, he appears to be more effective and efficient on the ball. Because of that he'll have better series against some teams where Isaiah goes off the ball. He also seems to fare better when he has a solid big man to work with. When Horford is on the floor with him it's much better than with KO.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #161 on: April 26, 2017, 03:13:20 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Hey slightly off topic but Andrew Harrison (who by all rights should be a senior at Kentucky I think) is playing some significant quality minutes in Memphis against the Spurs in the playoffs right now.

That means he's better than Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, and J Randle. I mean do you have any idea how huge it is for a young guard to play quality minutes on a playoff team?
Honestly, Andrew Harrison is a good, underrated player.

The key difference between Harrison and Smart here is that Harrison is playing 22 mpg in the playoffs vs. 20 mpg during the season. Most of his minutes have come due to injury to Conley during the year and now Tony Allen. Hes kinda been forced into minutes.

Harrison: 22 mpg in playoffs, 20 mpg in regular season for 43 win team
Rozier: 12 mpg in playoffs, 17 mpg in regular season for 53 win team
Smart: 30 mpg in playoffs 30 mpg in regular season for 53 win team

Smart is playing much more on a much better team and making a bigger impact and hes done it before. Last year, he was our 3rd best player in the playoffs(arguably 2nd) and basically won a game for us with his clutch D on Millsap and a super important 11 point scoring binge.

Overall, the ability to positively contribute to a playoff team is important. I think Andrew Harrison is actually vastly underrated. It wouldnt be too wrong to call him a poor man's Marcus Smart. He is definitely worse than Marcus, but still a solid player, who should have a long career coming off the bench.
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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #162 on: April 26, 2017, 02:30:44 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Hey slightly off topic but Andrew Harrison (who by all rights should be a senior at Kentucky I think) is playing some significant quality minutes in Memphis against the Spurs in the playoffs right now.

That means he's better than Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, and J Randle. I mean do you have any idea how huge it is for a young guard to play quality minutes on a playoff team?
Honestly, Andrew Harrison is a good, underrated player.

The key difference between Harrison and Smart here is that Harrison is playing 22 mpg in the playoffs vs. 20 mpg during the season. Most of his minutes have come due to injury to Conley during the year and now Tony Allen. Hes kinda been forced into minutes.

Harrison: 22 mpg in playoffs, 20 mpg in regular season for 43 win team
Rozier: 12 mpg in playoffs, 17 mpg in regular season for 53 win team
Smart: 30 mpg in playoffs 30 mpg in regular season for 53 win team

Smart is playing much more on a much better team and making a bigger impact and hes done it before. Last year, he was our 3rd best player in the playoffs(arguably 2nd) and basically won a game for us with his clutch D on Millsap and a super important 11 point scoring binge.

Overall, the ability to positively contribute to a playoff team is important. I think Andrew Harrison is actually vastly underrated. It wouldnt be too wrong to call him a poor man's Marcus Smart. He is definitely worse than Marcus, but still a solid player, who should have a long career coming off the bench.

Basically, your key argument for Smart is that they are better with him on the floor then without right? The link below gives a good indication with how the team offense plays with Smart on the floor and off. I recently listened to the BS report with Harboulas Val-----I can't spell his name haha. But he uses models to make bets on NBA games. He's a genius imo. He mentioned that it is important to look at a teams stats when a player is on the floor. So yeah, Smart statistically in that sense is good.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/marcus-smart/

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #163 on: April 26, 2017, 02:33:40 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out.

This thread is about expectations. So looking back at Smart's draft profile, strengths/weaknesses, of your favorite draft site you will find your answer. Coming out of college Smart was labeled a poor shooter but good finisher around the rim that got to the free throw line a lot. An average playmaker with relatively low bball iq, that didn't have as much pick and roll experience as one would like but good at posting up and did so at a rate higher than most small forwards. Defensively he had good anticipation skills for streals and blocks and his strength allowed him to guard multiple positions. His intangibles rated highly, i.e. hustle and timely plays though tends to flop and get over emotional with opposing players.

This sounds like almost the same player he is today. Shooting still bad, finishing at rim and free throw attempts worse as he isn't able to bully his way to the rim like he did in college. I'd argue his playmaking skills, passing and ball handling have improved to the point where he is servicable running the point on pick and roll and getting the ball to others in scoring position. His defense and intangibles are probably better than advertised. He makes some ridiculus steals and hustle plays. He still flops but seems to be starting to get the benefit of the doubt from the refs. Still is overly emotional and has a tendency to get in bouts of machismo with opposing players, but not usually to the detriment of the team. Actually, this might bring more fire to the team.

So has he met expectations?

 I'd say mostly. His strengths are greater than advertised (defense,intangibles)his weakness are a mixed bag. Scoring is still bad, probably worse, but his passing is better and his flops and outburst are positives not negatives. People probably want to see more growth from a high lottery pick but sometimes you get exactly what you bought. And if you highly value offense, like the OP, well... then you're probably disappointed but given his skill set coming out of college, shouldn't have had high expectations to begin with.

You are right ,and I think Smart haters also understand this.


At this moment Smart is fine, he is playing 30 minutes on a good team

But I think what Smart pessimists are trying to convey is that he cannot be a starter .......he is not that type of player

Of course we all love high octane energy guys who do the dirty work.

We all know he can do that, but at his current style , no way he is a starter where as guys like Randle, Gordon, Payton, even though they might to be as important as Smart is to a contender , they can eventually be no doubt starters because they can score or they can be efficient offensive players.

No doubt Smart is a fantastic player to have on the team.....but at this moment that is what he is,

If he starts, the team you have will most likely suffer or is suffering to the point where he needs to be a starter.

On the flip side, I think he can start on this Celtics team as well along side IT. Although if a better one dimensional shooter comes along, he can easily be thrown back  to the bench.

Its all on Smart to improve his shooting and become better at driving to the rim.

He doesnt do both well at all right now.

Do you have a link? Cause I have one from Draft Express. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2xqmw8NHco

It literally says he can attack the rim, Size and Strength, Passing Instincts, Defense, and Competitiveness. Those are his strengths. It also mentions he's pretty decent on isolations.

He was a tier 2 prospect on Chad Ford's board, which is based on Front Office Exec's assumptions on a player. I really don't appreciate people rewriting history on Smart's expectation. I can even post old threads to show what people truly thought of Marcus Smart. I think it's really unfair that people just make stuff up to suit their argument.

I love Smart. We really really need him for the future. I hope he improves because it will hurt us if he doesn't. He has been a disappointment thus far in terms on progress for me. But what do I know. I mean I created a thread saying we would beat the Bulls in 7 games after we were down 0-2. If you guys think that I'm bias or emotional, then you just don't read what I usually say.

I'm confused. Who are you responding to? Aren't we we giving him very similar strengths and weaknesses? I think we read the same draft express thing.... sorry I didn't post the link and got you all flummoxed.

His strengths are still strengths, he's probably even improved them, except for driving to the hoop. He's not good at that.  I expected his passing to be better, it was bad at first but he's improved this in his 3rd year. So, as long as you didn't expect him to be a good shooter, which he was never advertised as, he has pretty much lived up to his billing.

If he is able to improve his catch and shoot, which seems somewhat reasonable based on his improved free throw shooting, and get back to being effective driving to the rim then he will become the mythical "starter" that the bashers say he isn't.

I like him. He does some truly awesome unique things on the court. I think he is a terrific component to what could be a championship squad. He could even be a starter depending on the skill sets of the other starters. The starter argument is dumb and narrow, completely dependent on who the other players are.....

Yes I was talking to you. You're making it seem like DraftExpress had Smart projected as a role player when in fact they didn't. You glossed over how high they were on him for attacking the rim. If he was good at attacking the rim like it was projected, he would be one of the better players in this league honestly.

I also made that post of the video to show that Smart hasn't actually improved...He looks like the same player in college. In fact he looks slower now. Not trying to hate on the guy, but I expected better arm definition. Please look at Brown and Rozier. You can tell those guys don't eat badly. Look at Rozier's body compared to his rookie season.

I don't see him improving much as a player tbh. He is what he is. I'm happy to have him, but I don't think he met expectations that people on this board had for him, nor the expectations of scouts.

I can post old Marcus Smart threads to confirm how high expectations were for him. It was supposed to be a loaded draft, and not just some regular draft where it's either hit or miss with the 6th pick.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #164 on: April 26, 2017, 05:13:08 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Got it. And I thought I pointed out that he failed to live up to his rim attacking abilities so... yeah we are in agreement for the most part. But for me he made up that short expectation by being even better than advertised at defense and intangibles.  I guess the difference being you expected more growth as I see it as getting what you bought. But him being a #6 pick.... sure maybe we should expect him to reach that ceiling everyone wanted for him. But that sounds like hope to me, not a realistic expectation.