Poll

Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations?

He is totally exceeding expectations.
11 (11.1%)
He is meeting expectations.
42 (42.4%)
He is not meeting expectations but he's within range.
38 (38.4%)
He is nowhere near meeting expectations.
8 (8.1%)

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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2017, 12:05:19 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Marcus, unfortunately, is held to a different standard than Jaylen and most anyone else on this team for 1 reason - he was the "answer" to our entire tanking year.  We suffered through an entire year hoping to land Embiid or Wiggins (and to some degree Parker), and were left with Marcus Smart. 

I don't agree with that at all.

Smart has been held to a different standard than Jaylen Brown because:

1.  Smart was a seasoned college player who was supposed to be one of the most NBA ready players in the draft.  Brown was a 19 year old freshman who was recognised universally as a raw athletic wing, and was seen by most as a high risk, high upside pick.  I don't think anybody expected much at all from him this year, and I would say he's exceeded those expectations by actually contributing on a fairly consistent basis.

2. Smart is now in his third season.  He's played in 207 regular season games, 13 playoff games, and has never averaged less than 27 MPG for a season.  Point here is that he has has logged a LOT of playing time and gained a LOT more experience then most third year players do.  Yet to this point, he has still not shown any major signs of progression. 

When Smart entered the league, his biggest knocks were his ball handling ability, his shooting ability, his decision making, and his lack of great athleticism.  That hasn't changed, three years in.  He still struggles handling the ball, he is still one of the worst shooters in the league (statistically), he still makes poor decisions far too often, and I still see quicker guards blow by him pretty regularly. 

He's largely still 90% the same player he was on draft day - same strengths, same limitations. We all know he has the reputation of a tireless worker, so if the guy is putting in that much effort and his game isn't really progressing, then what does that say? To me this indicates clear warning signs that Marcus Smart just doesn't have that much raw talent, doesn't have a whole lot of upside, and pretty much is who he is. 

By comparison, Jaylen Brown has only played 78 games (at 17 MPG) as a rookie, and already we have seen him progress significantly on both ends of the court.  He finished his rookie season averaging Per 36 stats of 13.8 points, 5.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists per 36 minutes on 45% / 34% / 69% shooting - he wasn't playing at anything close to that level in the two months of the season, so the progression is there.  Progression aside, those numbers are very respectable for a rookie - especially a rookie who was drafted as a 19 year old freshman, with the reputation of being a raw athlete who can't shoot.

So this is why Smart held to a different standard to guys like Brown, Rozier, etc.  He's been given all the opportunity in the world to play major minutes on a competitive team - those minutes are so much more valuable (from a learning perspective) than the type of minutes a guy like Wiggins or Embiid is getting on their respective teams.  Yet despite that, he's just not showing that his making any real progression.

I honestly don't get the "Marcus isn't a great athlete" thing.

He makes plays on defense I've literally never seen before. He is heavy and rugged, and yet he still shifts and readjusts his weight with remarkable agility and quickness.

Yes, he is exceptionally intelligent, but he also has good physical tools.

He has good physical tools for a small forward or power forward (strength, length, power).  Unfortunately, he is a combo guard. 

Now I will agree, that he moves pretty well for a guy of his build.  But he still doesn't move well for a guy of his position.  For a 22 year old combo guard, his mobility is average at best.

Already in this series I have seen plays where Rajon Rondo and Dwyane Wade have blown by him like he was standing still. 

Rajon Rondo I can somewhat accept since he's always been a very quick and athletic guy, and a crafty ball handler.  But Dwyane Wade is just as solid as Smart is (at 225 pounds or so), he's not an elite ball handler, he's 35 years old, and he's seemingly always playing with half a dozen injuries.  There should be no occasion where he should be able to blow by a 22 year old, defensive minded combo guard like Smart.  It was a pure isolation play too, so there were no screens or distractions of any kind working to Wade's benefit.

As for the intelligence comment...I agree, but only on the defensive end.  I would say it's Smarts defensive IQ, and his ability to anticipate what an opponent will do before he does it, that makes him such a good defender.  But on offence, his basketball IQ is average at best.

For anybody who truly believe Smart is a stand out playmaker, I urge you to do one of two things:

a) Watch him play
b) Look at this stats

It doesn't matter which you do, because if you do either with an objective mind his average point guard skills will be plain to see.

Lets start with his assist / turnover ratio.  A simple stat that says a ton about a player's ability to control an offence and make smart plays.

Smart's career Assist/Turnover ratio is 2.3 which is on the average side for an NBA PG.  Also he's made no progression there - every single season in his career so far, he has had the exact same Assist/TO ratio - 2.3 year by year.   

His assist rate (18.5%) is well below average for a PG, and his turnover rate (14.2%) is decent, but not spectacular.  Smart's PG numbers are by no means POOR, but they certainly aren't standout. 

By comparison, Elfrid Payton for his career has double the assist rate (33.7%) and only a slightly higher turnover rate (17.6%)...and lets be honest, Elfrid Payton isn't exactly CP3 from a playmaking perspective. 

Victor Oladipo has a lower Assist/TO rate for his career, but he has the same assist rate (18.5%) and practically the same turnover rate (14.3%) and nobody is mistaking Oladipo for a skilled playmaker. 

Al Horford is a PF, and he has career averages of:
1.9 Assists / TO
15.1% Assist Rate
11.2% Turnover Rate

Granted Horford is one of the best passing bigs in the game, but he's still a big...and he;s effectively just as good a playmaker as Smart is.

So to all of those people who keep insisting that Smart is an excellent playmaker, an outstanding passer, a fantastic decision maker, etc - lets come back down to earth, please.

As a PG, I would say Marcus Smart is a below-average-to-average playmaker
As a combo guard I would say that he is an average-to-above-average playmaker

In no stretch of anybody's imagination is Smart a standout playmaker, and his ball handling skills are seriously limited.   
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:12:22 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2017, 12:14:43 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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How anyone can say that Smart is a poor ballhandler and bad decision-maker with the ball...I mean, you're kidding us, right? This is a joke, yes?

I will reiterate - if you disagree, then you obviously are not watching him with an open / objective mind.

Go back.  Watch game one.  Watch it objectively.

Smart made a lot of very costly errors.  A couple of possessions where he over-dribbled and held the ball too long (Rondo style) only to eventually lose his dribble - he was very lucky that one of those occasions the ball hit the defender's foot an was called a kick ball, and on the other occasion I believe a Celtics player ended up getting the loose ball and saving his butt - and so they managed to luckily avoid a turnover  Probably the reason why people choose to ignore it.

Another play where Smart had a wide open three.  Chose not to take it.  Instead tried to get closer by dribbling directly into multiple defenders - I believe that play led to a lost ball, a lucky recovery by another Boston player, who was then forced to take an unplanned shot that missed, and the opponent got the ball.

Another play Smart brought the ball up on offence, had one or two defenders right in front of him.  Before the offence even had a chance to initiate anything, he pulled up for three with two defenders nearby, and obviously missed the shot. Opponent got the rebound.

Two other plays later in the game (second half, from memory) Smart caught the ball and fired up contested threes when there was still plenty of time on the shot clock.  Lucky for him he made both shots - but they were poor decisions and he should not have taken them, regardless of whether they went in or not. 

Another possession (cant remember if this was Game 1 or Game 3) he was inbounding the ball, Rozier was driving, and Smart through a bad pass behind Rozier and out of bounds - turnover.  I believe that Chicago scored on the next possession too.

Another possession Smart made an incredibly dangerous pass into the paint to Al Horford.  There were three defenders in the path of the ball, and by pure luck the ball went between those defenders, and Horford managed (barely) to catch the ball and put it in.  A dangerous pass that Smart should not have made, but he got off because Horford saved his butt by making a heroic catch and finish.

On another play I believe he through a very dangerous cross court pass from one side of the court, past multiple defenders, to the other side of the court.  Almost got picked off - somehow by fluke it got to a Boston player's hands. 

A couple of ill advised fouls that were completely unecessary.

Multiple possessions where he was stopping the ball - standing around dribbling the ball aimlessly for way too long, with no apparent goal or action in mind. 

As I said, watch the game objectively, count the number of poor decisions Smart makes.  You won't be able to count them on one hand. You'll struggle to count them on two hands. On at least half of them he got bailed out by teammates, lazy opponents, or by sheer luck.

You can to ignore all of these mistakes if you so choose, but it's doing the Celtics no favours when everybody gets on the Smart hype train and ignores all of the major mistakes he makes on a consistent basis.

 :o

You might need a therapist.
Or, a better therapist.

Hmm, a response that contains no evidence, no backing, and no objectivity whatsoever...and instead replaces those with personal jabs.

Not at all suggestive of a biased state of mind, hmm?

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2017, 12:37:42 AM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Quote
Not at all suggestive of a biased state of mind, hmm?

Dude, that last post of yours was illuminating. What was illuminated is the hardcore bias you got against Smart. He supposedly made a lot of "costly" errors...like not quite turning the ball over twice, like hitting two threes, like assisting Horford...and the only reason those absolutely uncostly things weren't actually costly is...luck! Right. Sure, buddy. But he, gasp, missed a shot, too. How dare an NBA player miss a shot! But he also committed a foul! And god forbid, he actually did turn the ball over, once. Unacceptable!!! Your bias is too much for me to handle. I just...I can't even. I quit this thread.
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Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #108 on: April 24, 2017, 08:33:31 AM »

Offline Eja117

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The beauty of Marcus is that he is only going to get better at pretty much every thing.

 In his 3rd year in the league he'd be a serious consideration for the All NBA defensive team. That's an amazing accomplishment.

He's going to get better at shooting because he's willing to put the work in. Similarly to AB.

He will certainly improve his shooting with experience, time will tell if he becomes an average shooter or a good shooter.

I don't mean to be a downer and i actually like players like Smart but he MAY get better  and not he IS ONLY GOING TO get better

The same was said numerous times about Rondo and his shooting and it never actually happened.

Rondo has shot 36.5%+ from 3 last season on 2 attempts a game and 37.5% this year on 2 attempts a game. That's after never shooting better than 28.5% from 3 in the previous 9 seasons in the NBA.

When someone is willing to work as hard as Smart is, you are going to improve. Now he may not become a 35% 3 pt shooter or improve his FG% to 45%+, but he will improve over his current horrid numbers.
But his fg% and 3pt % is worse than his rookie year. His ft% went from bad to good but a guy who shoots like Marcus shouldn't really be shooting the ball in the first place.

Wishful thinking. Don't tell them Randle can't improve lol , he's done for lol.
Kelly is having an exceptionally efficient game tonight, but instead of being some tough dude with tatts and a scowl who should be shooting underhand he's a goofy looking short armed white dude from Canada with a man bun on a good day. So people go "Oooohhh aaahhh Marccccuusss."  It's like reverse racism.

Sadly, there's a substantial amount of truth in this.

Kelly's relative awkwardness too often conceals his effectiveness and gets him way more grief around here than he deserves.

Absolutely.

Kelly Olynyk has been quietly efficient and effective all season long on both ends of the court, as he always is. 

Olynyk has never averaged more than 22.2 MPG - yet for his career he's averaging approximately:

* 10 Pts
* 5 rebounds
* 1.5 assists
* 48% FG
* 37% 3PT
* 74% FT

He has also ranked near the top of his position in advanced stats (on offense and defense) for three straight seasons now.   

Then as the cherry on top he's also a nice kid.  He seems like a great locker room guys, super coachable.  Never complains, argue or causes any dramas of any kind.

He might not have the killer instict or the physical talent to ever be a star in this league...but he is a Greg Popovich special.  He's the type of fundamentally sound, quietly effective two-way big that every team would love to have on it's roster.  He does a little bit of everything, and when he's not contributing in one way (e.g. scoring) he's almost always finds other ways to contribute (like playmaking, rebounding or defense).  If Boston can retain Olynyk on a reasonable deal ($7M or $8M a year, in todays cap environmen) that I think it would be a big mistake to let him go.  He still has upside and he has the potential to develop into a Robin Lopez caliber starting big man (not a flashy guy, but a solid contributer who can help a team on both ends) or a very good 6th man.

Better yet re-signing him is also a very low risk move, since his numbers have been so consistent over his first 3-4 seasons...you kinda know the bare minimum of what he's going to give you.
You and I didn't get the memo that offense and rebounding aren't important any more. You just need to play incredible defense, disappear for three quarters, and show up at the end to make some timely plays.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2017, 08:37:26 AM »

Offline Eja117

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Marcus, unfortunately, is held to a different standard than Jaylen and most anyone else on this team for 1 reason - he was the "answer" to our entire tanking year.  We suffered through an entire year hoping to land Embiid or Wiggins (and to some degree Parker), and were left with Marcus Smart. 

But compared to those around him in the draft (Aaron Gordon, Dante Exum, Julius Randle, and Nik Stauskus), I am very glad that we have Marcus on this team in the playoffs.  I was okay with the draft pick, and even thought he was kind of a bust last year, but these playoffs he really grew on me.  The guy is a winner and makes 10 plays a game that make a meaningful impact.  If he can develop a better 3-point shot then he'll be really valuable.
I can see what you're saying here. I definitely put more emotional capital into Smart and definitely feel like I was sold a specific narrative on him that wasn't fair to me or him

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #110 on: April 24, 2017, 09:33:13 AM »

Offline tankcity!

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Where would a 23 year old defensive point guard be taken in this years draft?

That's not what Smart was when he came out of college. He was a high tier prospect. He's a role player so he hasn't lived up to the hype. I wanted Saric and Lavine during that draft. Ainge went with a safe pick in Smart. I think Randle is a better player. If we didn't have Smart on this team, I still think we could win at least 48 games. IT was the reason why we won last night. He's the best player. Smart is a notch below Crowder, and even though Bradley had a bad night, I think Bradley is a true starter unlike Smart.

Smart has had two good games this series. And they were both good games for a role player, not a all star. Relax people. Did you see what Ingles did for the Jazz last night? This kind of crap happens all the time with role players. Keep your panties in a bunch, geez. The open market will tell us Smart's value around the league. He's going to be a RFA. Let's see what happens during those contract negotiations. That will determine his value around the league.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #111 on: April 24, 2017, 09:35:48 AM »

Offline tankcity!

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Marcus, unfortunately, is held to a different standard than Jaylen and most anyone else on this team for 1 reason - he was the "answer" to our entire tanking year.  We suffered through an entire year hoping to land Embiid or Wiggins (and to some degree Parker), and were left with Marcus Smart. 

I don't agree with that at all.

Smart has been held to a different standard than Jaylen Brown because:

1.  Smart was a seasoned college player who was supposed to be one of the most NBA ready players in the draft.  Brown was a 19 year old freshman who was recognised universally as a raw athletic wing, and was seen by most as a high risk, high upside pick.  I don't think anybody expected much at all from him this year, and I would say he's exceeded those expectations by actually contributing on a fairly consistent basis.

2. Smart is now in his third season.  He's played in 207 regular season games, 13 playoff games, and has never averaged less than 27 MPG for a season.  Point here is that he has has logged a LOT of playing time and gained a LOT more experience then most third year players do.  Yet to this point, he has still not shown any major signs of progression. 

When Smart entered the league, his biggest knocks were his ball handling ability, his shooting ability, his decision making, and his lack of great athleticism.  That hasn't changed, three years in.  He still struggles handling the ball, he is still one of the worst shooters in the league (statistically), he still makes poor decisions far too often, and I still see quicker guards blow by him pretty regularly. 

He's largely still 90% the same player he was on draft day - same strengths, same limitations. We all know he has the reputation of a tireless worker, so if the guy is putting in that much effort and his game isn't really progressing, then what does that say? To me this indicates clear warning signs that Marcus Smart just doesn't have that much raw talent, doesn't have a whole lot of upside, and pretty much is who he is. 

By comparison, Jaylen Brown has only played 78 games (at 17 MPG) as a rookie, and already we have seen him progress significantly on both ends of the court.  He finished his rookie season averaging Per 36 stats of 13.8 points, 5.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists per 36 minutes on 45% / 34% / 69% shooting - he wasn't playing at anything close to that level in the two months of the season, so the progression is there.  Progression aside, those numbers are very respectable for a rookie - especially a rookie who was drafted as a 19 year old freshman, with the reputation of being a raw athlete who can't shoot.

So this is why Smart held to a different standard to guys like Brown, Rozier, etc.  He's been given all the opportunity in the world to play major minutes on a competitive team - those minutes are so much more valuable (from a learning perspective) than the type of minutes a guy like Wiggins or Embiid is getting on their respective teams.  Yet despite that, he's just not showing that his making any real progression.

TP sir. This is exactly how I feel. I like the player, reminds me of Tony Allen. He's def a keeper. Just FYI, Tony Allen has shut down Durant for an entire series, and would give Kobe a lot of trouble. Never seen Smart do that. I've seen him get burnt by elite players above 6'5 in height. Just saying.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #112 on: April 24, 2017, 09:58:54 AM »

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Marcus, unfortunately, is held to a different standard than Jaylen and most anyone else on this team for 1 reason - he was the "answer" to our entire tanking year.  We suffered through an entire year hoping to land Embiid or Wiggins (and to some degree Parker), and were left with Marcus Smart. 

But compared to those around him in the draft (Aaron Gordon, Dante Exum, Julius Randle, and Nik Stauskus), I am very glad that we have Marcus on this team in the playoffs.  I was okay with the draft pick, and even thought he was kind of a bust last year, but these playoffs he really grew on me.  The guy is a winner and makes 10 plays a game that make a meaningful impact.  If he can develop a better 3-point shot then he'll be really valuable.
I can see what you're saying here. I definitely put more emotional capital into Smart and definitely feel like I was sold a specific narrative on him that wasn't fair to me or him
I'd still give him a year to prove that he can be a star. Hoping he's a late bloomer
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #113 on: April 24, 2017, 10:12:38 AM »

Offline RIPRED

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Without various cop out answers like "The expectations have always been unfair" or something like that where do you rank Marcus Smart?

To me he's a sixth man via his tough play and defense. Yes he tries very hard all the time, but that's not good enough. He wasn't drafted 6th to be a 6th man. He as supposed to be beating out Avery Bradley by now and it's not even close.

He's a great defender and that's all he is. You don't try to draft Bruce Bowen or something with the 6th pick.

I think the expectations were...by the third year....a solid starter in this league. A good offensive player. A good passer/playmaker.

He's nothing like that. He's just a  try hard intense player who has a knack for showing up big in tough spots. Not good enough.

I respect him but I think he's a pick that is a missed opportunity.

I've got to be honest, I watched a little bit of Smart in college and I can't say I ever expected much from him offensively. I could be completely wrong here, but I get the feeling Marcus doesn't spend much time working on his offensive game during the offseason, but that's just a stupid hunch of mine.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #114 on: April 24, 2017, 02:19:34 PM »

Offline shrinkage36

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Smart didn't win back to back State Championships in High School by being a dominant point guard, scorer. He won by hustle, defense, rebounds, shutting down opponents stars, taking charges, and changing the complexity of the game without scoring.

He was hands down the MVP of those championship games and this is what you're seeing now. He won't unleash until the 4th quarter when he his foul count is low and he can go all out. He'll get in your head, out hustle anyone on either team, he's a man amongst men. Just watch as this thing goes on, he's undeniable.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #115 on: April 24, 2017, 02:40:35 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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Where would a 23 year old defensive point guard be taken in this years draft?

That's not what Smart was when he came out of college. He was a high tier prospect. He's a role player so he hasn't lived up to the hype. I wanted Saric and Lavine during that draft. Ainge went with a safe pick in Smart. I think Randle is a better player. If we didn't have Smart on this team, I still think we could win at least 48 games. IT was the reason why we won last night. He's the best player. Smart is a notch below Crowder, and even though Bradley had a bad night, I think Bradley is a true starter unlike Smart.

Smart has had two good games this series. And they were both good games for a role player, not a all star. Relax people. Did you see what Ingles did for the Jazz last night? This kind of crap happens all the time with role players. Keep your panties in a bunch, geez. The open market will tell us Smart's value around the league. He's going to be a RFA. Let's see what happens during those contract negotiations. That will determine his value around the league.

I'm always surprised to hear what people thought of Smart coming out of college.  He played at the same school as Tony Allen, had almost identical numbers, was the same size, and had a similar game.  He looked to me like another Tony Allen (a lot of people made this comparison so I wasn't alone).  I thought he was drafted because he could play NBA defense with a hope that he could develop offensively.   

But my question is really... where would the 23 year old Marcus Smart go in this draft? Where in the draft would you pick a 23 year old point guard with NBA ready defense and terrible shooting numbers?

If it's not in the top 10 it's really hard to argue Smart's meeting or exceeding expectations.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #116 on: April 24, 2017, 02:47:45 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Where would a 23 year old defensive point guard be taken in this years draft?

That's not what Smart was when he came out of college. He was a high tier prospect. He's a role player so he hasn't lived up to the hype. I wanted Saric and Lavine during that draft. Ainge went with a safe pick in Smart. I think Randle is a better player. If we didn't have Smart on this team, I still think we could win at least 48 games. IT was the reason why we won last night. He's the best player. Smart is a notch below Crowder, and even though Bradley had a bad night, I think Bradley is a true starter unlike Smart.

Smart has had two good games this series. And they were both good games for a role player, not a all star. Relax people. Did you see what Ingles did for the Jazz last night? This kind of crap happens all the time with role players. Keep your panties in a bunch, geez. The open market will tell us Smart's value around the league. He's going to be a RFA. Let's see what happens during those contract negotiations. That will determine his value around the league.

I'm always surprised to hear what people thought of Smart coming out of college.  He played at the same school as Tony Allen, had almost identical numbers, was the same size, and had a similar game.  He looked to me like another Tony Allen (a lot of people made this comparison so I wasn't alone).  I thought he was drafted because he could play NBA defense with a hope that he could develop offensively.   

But my question is really... where would the 23 year old Marcus Smart go in this draft? Where in the draft would you pick a 23 year old point guard with NBA ready defense and terrible shooting numbers?

If it's not in the top 10 it's really hard to argue Smart's meeting or exceeding expectations.

Depends on the draft. This one is loaded, so he wouldn't be in the top ten for sure. Also, I'm just reiterating what the league perceived Smart as. I myself wasn't very high on him either. Never understood why people thought he would be a great all around PG.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #117 on: April 24, 2017, 03:24:33 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Marcus, unfortunately, is held to a different standard than Jaylen and most anyone else on this team for 1 reason - he was the "answer" to our entire tanking year.  We suffered through an entire year hoping to land Embiid or Wiggins (and to some degree Parker), and were left with Marcus Smart. 

I don't agree with that at all.

Smart has been held to a different standard than Jaylen Brown because:

1.  Smart was a seasoned college player who was supposed to be one of the most NBA ready players in the draft.  Brown was a 19 year old freshman who was recognised universally as a raw athletic wing, and was seen by most as a high risk, high upside pick.  I don't think anybody expected much at all from him this year, and I would say he's exceeded those expectations by actually contributing on a fairly consistent basis.

2. Smart is now in his third season.  He's played in 207 regular season games, 13 playoff games, and has never averaged less than 27 MPG for a season.  Point here is that he has has logged a LOT of playing time and gained a LOT more experience then most third year players do.  Yet to this point, he has still not shown any major signs of progression. 

When Smart entered the league, his biggest knocks were his ball handling ability, his shooting ability, his decision making, and his lack of great athleticism.  That hasn't changed, three years in.  He still struggles handling the ball, he is still one of the worst shooters in the league (statistically), he still makes poor decisions far too often, and I still see quicker guards blow by him pretty regularly. 

He's largely still 90% the same player he was on draft day - same strengths, same limitations. We all know he has the reputation of a tireless worker, so if the guy is putting in that much effort and his game isn't really progressing, then what does that say? To me this indicates clear warning signs that Marcus Smart just doesn't have that much raw talent, doesn't have a whole lot of upside, and pretty much is who he is. 

By comparison, Jaylen Brown has only played 78 games (at 17 MPG) as a rookie, and already we have seen him progress significantly on both ends of the court.  He finished his rookie season averaging Per 36 stats of 13.8 points, 5.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists per 36 minutes on 45% / 34% / 69% shooting - he wasn't playing at anything close to that level in the two months of the season, so the progression is there.  Progression aside, those numbers are very respectable for a rookie - especially a rookie who was drafted as a 19 year old freshman, with the reputation of being a raw athlete who can't shoot.

So this is why Smart held to a different standard to guys like Brown, Rozier, etc.  He's been given all the opportunity in the world to play major minutes on a competitive team - those minutes are so much more valuable (from a learning perspective) than the type of minutes a guy like Wiggins or Embiid is getting on their respective teams.  Yet despite that, he's just not showing that his making any real progression.

TP sir. This is exactly how I feel. I like the player, reminds me of Tony Allen. He's def a keeper. Just FYI, Tony Allen has shut down Durant for an entire series, and would give Kobe a lot of trouble. Never seen Smart do that. I've seen him get burnt by elite players above 6'5 in height. Just saying.

OK, but do you remember Tony Allen at 23?  He was a Celtics rookie. It took him years before anyone was OK with him TOUCHING the ball.  I can remember saying to myself -- "pass it Tony, pass it..." then feeling relieved if the ball ended up in a Celtic's hands.   Tony was abominable with the ball and consistently made terrible decisions.  He had more athletic skills than Marcus and was a blooming defensive player, but when he left the C's at 28 he was just coming into his own as a player -- and still is a guy who makes mistakes offensively.  Give me the Marcus trajectory way over TA.  Anyway -- I know the question here isn't between Marcus and Tony Allen, but I think Marcus absolutely has progressed and will continue to do so.

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #118 on: April 24, 2017, 03:38:25 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Smart didn't win back to back State Championships in High School by being a dominant point guard, scorer. He won by hustle, defense, rebounds, shutting down opponents stars, taking charges, and changing the complexity of the game without scoring.

He was hands down the MVP of those championship games and this is what you're seeing now. He won't unleash until the 4th quarter when he his foul count is low and he can go all out. He'll get in your head, out hustle anyone on either team, he's a man amongst men. Just watch as this thing goes on, he's undeniable.
I have to say my expectations of him weren't a liability on offense who disappears for three quarters and then emerges in the final 10 minutes of the 4th. I expected better than that. Letting teams hang around until the end doesn't strike me as the greatest strategy

Re: Is Marcus Smart meeting expectations? Grade him here.
« Reply #119 on: April 24, 2017, 03:43:06 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Marcus, unfortunately, is held to a different standard than Jaylen and most anyone else on this team for 1 reason - he was the "answer" to our entire tanking year.  We suffered through an entire year hoping to land Embiid or Wiggins (and to some degree Parker), and were left with Marcus Smart. 

I don't agree with that at all.

Smart has been held to a different standard than Jaylen Brown because:

1.  Smart was a seasoned college player who was supposed to be one of the most NBA ready players in the draft.  Brown was a 19 year old freshman who was recognised universally as a raw athletic wing, and was seen by most as a high risk, high upside pick.  I don't think anybody expected much at all from him this year, and I would say he's exceeded those expectations by actually contributing on a fairly consistent basis.

2. Smart is now in his third season.  He's played in 207 regular season games, 13 playoff games, and has never averaged less than 27 MPG for a season.  Point here is that he has has logged a LOT of playing time and gained a LOT more experience then most third year players do.  Yet to this point, he has still not shown any major signs of progression. 

When Smart entered the league, his biggest knocks were his ball handling ability, his shooting ability, his decision making, and his lack of great athleticism.  That hasn't changed, three years in.  He still struggles handling the ball, he is still one of the worst shooters in the league (statistically), he still makes poor decisions far too often, and I still see quicker guards blow by him pretty regularly. 

He's largely still 90% the same player he was on draft day - same strengths, same limitations. We all know he has the reputation of a tireless worker, so if the guy is putting in that much effort and his game isn't really progressing, then what does that say? To me this indicates clear warning signs that Marcus Smart just doesn't have that much raw talent, doesn't have a whole lot of upside, and pretty much is who he is. 

By comparison, Jaylen Brown has only played 78 games (at 17 MPG) as a rookie, and already we have seen him progress significantly on both ends of the court.  He finished his rookie season averaging Per 36 stats of 13.8 points, 5.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists per 36 minutes on 45% / 34% / 69% shooting - he wasn't playing at anything close to that level in the two months of the season, so the progression is there.  Progression aside, those numbers are very respectable for a rookie - especially a rookie who was drafted as a 19 year old freshman, with the reputation of being a raw athlete who can't shoot.

So this is why Smart held to a different standard to guys like Brown, Rozier, etc.  He's been given all the opportunity in the world to play major minutes on a competitive team - those minutes are so much more valuable (from a learning perspective) than the type of minutes a guy like Wiggins or Embiid is getting on their respective teams.  Yet despite that, he's just not showing that his making any real progression.

TP sir. This is exactly how I feel. I like the player, reminds me of Tony Allen. He's def a keeper. Just FYI, Tony Allen has shut down Durant for an entire series, and would give Kobe a lot of trouble. Never seen Smart do that. I've seen him get burnt by elite players above 6'5 in height. Just saying.

OK, but do you remember Tony Allen at 23?  He was a Celtics rookie. It took him years before anyone was OK with him TOUCHING the ball.  I can remember saying to myself -- "pass it Tony, pass it..." then feeling relieved if the ball ended up in a Celtic's hands.   Tony was abominable with the ball and consistently made terrible decisions.  He had more athletic skills than Marcus and was a blooming defensive player, but when he left the C's at 28 he was just coming into his own as a player -- and still is a guy who makes mistakes offensively.  Give me the Marcus trajectory way over TA.  Anyway -- I know the question here isn't between Marcus and Tony Allen, but I think Marcus absolutely has progressed and will continue to do so.

I'm more than open to the suggestion that Smart can still improve.I want the dude to become an all star. The Celtics need him to, lol. That fact that he hasn't turned the corner on offense has hurt our future and it's sad posters on this thread don't see that. I just haven't seen the improvement people on this board say they have. He looks like a player who literally has just been playing 5 on 5, and using games to improve. There is nothing about his game where I feel like yeah, he spent time on that specific move this offseason. This is my problem with him.

I mean people should look at Brown's arms, or Jimmy Butler's arms and compare it to Smart's. It's clear the guy doesn't work hard. Just look at his body and game. Terry Rozier is more cut than Smart. I can look at Terry Rozier's game this year and clearly see that he worked on it in the summer. I don't see that with Smart unfortunately.