Author Topic: Ainge grilled on Rich and Toucher - no blame on himself/Stevens. But players..  (Read 3944 times)

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Online kozlodoev

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And when you are a Celtic, is a Conference finals or even (in a dream case) NBA Finals enough?
Not getting waxed by inferior teams is enough.

Not getting waxed by superior teams is a bonus.

This series is neither of the two so far, so...

Yes of course pride takes a hit. But again, I think we're letting the emotions talk and we're not taking a step back to look the bigger picture. It's my point. But I won't say seing the Bulls give us a lesson doens't pain me A LOT.

If it makes the future better (for reason Ainge knows and we don't, because we see all this from a spectator seat), then so be it.
The bigger picture is that if these guys can't buckle up and be competitive when it matters -- let alone against an inferior team -- then we should be thinking about getting rid of any and all all of them before we're relevant again. Objectively, that's not only painful to watch, but also doesn't particularly make the future better. Going back to square one is not improvement down the road, just added uncertainty.
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Online Boris Badenov

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I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal. 

This is speculation but I think you're mis-reading what happened. I think Horford was nothing more than a lure for Durant. He was Ray Allen 2.0.

At that point, Danny thought we had a really good shot at KD. And we probably did.

But, the chips didn't fall our way, and my personal guess is that since the day Durant signed with the Warriors, Danny has viewed this as a dead team walking for the entire year. That's why he didn't invest in acquiring role players (we have no chance even with them) or stars (even Cousins wouldn't push us over the top).

Stevens once again made life difficult by shoe-horning us into the #1 seed and the curse of expectations. But that's no one's fault. Nor is what's happening now, which is an outcome that would be unsurprising if we were the #4 seed (which, but for a few injuries and other things, we could be).

I think Danny has his mind on May 16th and beyond, and he has no regrets about the decisions he made this year, because he believes we never had a real chance.

Offline BE-Celtic

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And when you are a Celtic, is a Conference finals or even (in a dream case) NBA Finals enough?
Not getting waxed by inferior teams is enough.

Not getting waxed by superior teams is a bonus.

This series is neither of the two so far, so...

Yes of course pride takes a hit. But again, I think we're letting the emotions talk and we're not taking a step back to look the bigger picture. It's my point. But I won't say seing the Bulls give us a lesson doens't pain me A LOT.

If it makes the future better (for reason Ainge knows and we don't, because we see all this from a spectator seat), then so be it.
The bigger picture is that if these guys can't buckle up and be competitive when it matters -- let alone against an inferior team -- then we should be thinking about getting rid of any and all all of them before we're relevant again. Objectively, that's not only painful to watch, but also doesn't particularly make the future better. Going back to square one is not improvement down the road, just added uncertainty.

Knowing who's to keep and who's to throw after testing in playoffs is a step forward. Which is why I would really love to play against the Wizards to compare to a real team. But yes, I agree

Offline tankcity!

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Could've said the same thing last year before Durant met with us and we signed Horford. In fact, I recall everyone was saying the same thing.

Disappointed in you Pho. I didn't think you would get emotional. The only GM's who ever make mistakes are the ones who get emotional in this league. For example, negotiating trades takes time. The only leverage a team like the Celtics has in these talks is time. You really think Hayward won't sign here when he sees us draft a Brooklyn pick? And then we could flip Crowder for something....


I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

You're right that the best GMs do not make emotional decisions (there is a reason I am a fan and not a GM ... OK, there are MANY reasons why that is the case).

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal.  Utah won't be making the same mistake with Hayward.

With all of that said, I don't think the comparison to last year is apt here.  Last year, the Celts played an opponent that had more experience and arguably more talent, home court advantage, and that won the same number of games in the regular season.  They were generally overmatched in that series but managed to push it to 6 games despite losing Avery Bradley early in the series.

This year, the Celts are the #1 seed playing a first round series against an opponent with a deeply flawed roster that won 12 fewer games than they did in the regular season.  They are getting their butts kicked so far.


I don't think that FAs necessarily make decisions based on what just happened in the playoffs ... not entirely, anyway.  But I think it will definitely play a role.

If Danny had the chance to add a player like Noel, Mason Plumlee, Nurkic, or even Tucker at the halfway point for the price of, say, Jerebko or Rozier and a lesser pick, I think there was probably a strong argument to be made that he should have done it.

Back then, I felt that this team could win a playoff series and push a second round opponent to the brink whether or not they made a move.  That now appears to have been a deeply mistaken impression of how good this team is.


If Hayward is coming off a first round loss with the Jazz, wherein they pushed the Clippers to 6 or 7 games despite losing Rudy Gobert at the very beginning of Game 1, how would you expect him to feel about the Celts, by comparison, if they get smoked by the Bulls in 4 or 5 games (which is where this appears to be headed)?

Not to mention that the cap situation is going to make getting Hayward pretty difficult regardless.  Though on the other hand, at this point I really wouldn't mind jettisoning all of our FAs and trading Avery Bradley or Jae Crowder for cap space and a pick or something like that.

All fair points Pho. I do think there was some luck involved in signing Horford now that you mention it.We'll have to see how the off-season plays out, but I'm pretty optimistic about it. We have a lot of assets and flexibility. Series isn't over yet as well. I think Ainge could swing a trade for two superstars, or maybe he trades his mid-age players for younger players with better upside. Either way, our team has the flexibility to go either direction. Hard to ask for more imo. 
They didn't "lose" Teague -- they got rid of him because Schroder made him redundant. Other than that, they replaced Horford with Howard. Injuries or no injuries, our roster is not any more superior than it was last season. Probably less.

-Koz

Offline hpantazo

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Could've said the same thing last year before Durant met with us and we signed Horford. In fact, I recall everyone was saying the same thing.

Disappointed in you Pho. I didn't think you would get emotional. The only GM's who ever make mistakes are the ones who get emotional in this league. For example, negotiating trades takes time. The only leverage a team like the Celtics has in these talks is time. You really think Hayward won't sign here when he sees us draft a Brooklyn pick? And then we could flip Crowder for something....


I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

You're right that the best GMs do not make emotional decisions (there is a reason I am a fan and not a GM ... OK, there are MANY reasons why that is the case).

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal.  Utah won't be making the same mistake with Hayward.

With all of that said, I don't think the comparison to last year is apt here.  Last year, the Celts played an opponent that had more experience and arguably more talent, home court advantage, and that won the same number of games in the regular season.  They were generally overmatched in that series but managed to push it to 6 games despite losing Avery Bradley early in the series.

This year, the Celts are the #1 seed playing a first round series against an opponent with a deeply flawed roster that won 12 fewer games than they did in the regular season.  They are getting their butts kicked so far.


I don't think that FAs necessarily make decisions based on what just happened in the playoffs ... not entirely, anyway.  But I think it will definitely play a role.

If Danny had the chance to add a player like Noel, Mason Plumlee, Nurkic, or even Tucker at the halfway point for the price of, say, Jerebko or Rozier and a lesser pick, I think there was probably a strong argument to be made that he should have done it.

Back then, I felt that this team could win a playoff series and push a second round opponent to the brink whether or not they made a move.  That now appears to have been a deeply mistaken impression of how good this team is.


If Hayward is coming off a first round loss with the Jazz, wherein they pushed the Clippers to 6 or 7 games despite losing Rudy Gobert at the very beginning of Game 1, how would you expect him to feel about the Celts, by comparison, if they get smoked by the Bulls in 4 or 5 games (which is where this appears to be headed)?

Not to mention that the cap situation is going to make getting Hayward pretty difficult regardless.  Though on the other hand, at this point I really wouldn't mind jettisoning all of our FAs and trading Avery Bradley or Jae Crowder for cap space and a pick or something like that.

All fair points Pho. I do think there was some luck involved in signing Horford now that you mention it.We'll have to see how the off-season plays out, but I'm pretty optimistic about it. We have a lot of assets and flexibility. Series isn't over yet as well. I think Ainge could swing a trade for two superstars, or maybe he trades his mid-age players for younger players with better upside. Either way, our team has the flexibility to go either direction. Hard to ask for more imo.

I agree with most of Pho's points. I have to say though one I disagree with is that this years matchup is different because the Hawks last year were more experienced than us. The Bulls have two starters who were starters on championship teams. Those two guys alone have more playoff experience than our whole roster. Besides Horford, the rest of our team is still very inexperienced, and we're relying on young guys like Smart, Olynyk and Rozier to play significant roles for us in the playoffs. That's partly why our bench looks so weak. ITs only playoff experience was getting wupped last year by the Hawks.

Offline hwangjini_1

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I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal. 

This is speculation but I think you're mis-reading what happened. I think Horford was nothing more than a lure for Durant. He was Ray Allen 2.0.

At that point, Danny thought we had a really good shot at KD. And we probably did.

But, the chips didn't fall our way, and my personal guess is that since the day Durant signed with the Warriors, Danny has viewed this as a dead team walking for the entire year. That's why he didn't invest in acquiring role players (we have no chance even with them) or stars (even Cousins wouldn't push us over the top).

Stevens once again made life difficult by shoe-horning us into the #1 seed and the curse of expectations. But that's no one's fault. Nor is what's happening now, which is an outcome that would be unsurprising if we were the #4 seed (which, but for a few injuries and other things, we could be).

I think Danny has his mind on May 16th and beyond, and he has no regrets about the decisions he made this year, because he believes we never had a real chance.
well argued. a tp sir.

i would throw in a point made in various forms up above about trading for noel. he would have been nice to have, but as was pointed out in other threads he would either be a rental, or, clog up the salary cap without being a super star.

cousins? a lot GMs passed this chance it seems, so i dont blame ainge.

from day one, ainge has been looking past this season to next year i think.
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Offline GetLucky

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Do we really want him telling the players that "oops, our players are not good enough and we should have added someone" in the middle of a playoff series where they are down?


That's something for him to work on and discuss after the season.

This is a really good point. Nothing good can come from Danny critiquing Stevens or the roster construction while the team is still alive.

Offline cltc5

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And when you are a Celtic, is a Conference finals or even (in a dream case) NBA Finals enough?
Not getting waxed by inferior teams is enough.

Not getting waxed by superior teams is a bonus.

This series is neither of the two so far, so

Yes of course pride takes a hit. But again, I think we're letting the emotions talk and we're not taking a step back to look the bigger picture. It's my point. But I won't say seing the Bulls give us a lesson doens't pain me A LOT.

If it makes the future better (for reason Ainge knows and we don't, because we see all this from a spectator seat), then so be it.

Comes down from the clouds man

Offline PhoSita

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I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal. 

This is speculation but I think you're mis-reading what happened. I think Horford was nothing more than a lure for Durant. He was Ray Allen 2.0.

At that point, Danny thought we had a really good shot at KD. And we probably did.

But, the chips didn't fall our way, and my personal guess is that since the day Durant signed with the Warriors, Danny has viewed this as a dead team walking for the entire year. That's why he didn't invest in acquiring role players (we have no chance even with them) or stars (even Cousins wouldn't push us over the top).

Stevens once again made life difficult by shoe-horning us into the #1 seed and the curse of expectations. But that's no one's fault. Nor is what's happening now, which is an outcome that would be unsurprising if we were the #4 seed (which, but for a few injuries and other things, we could be).

I think Danny has his mind on May 16th and beyond, and he has no regrets about the decisions he made this year, because he believes we never had a real chance.

I believe there is truth in what you say, but at the same time, i don't think Danny would make a move like locking up Horford to a long term deal if he felt there wasn't value in doing so independent of whatever decision Durant made.

Once the Horford signing happened, I believe the reasonable expectation for this team became that they would get home court in the first round and win a playoff series or come danged close, so long as major injuries didn't derail things.

If that wasn't the thinking, the Horford signing was a wildly irresponsible move. You don't made a huge long term commitment like that if the value of the move depends entirely upon one specific free agent choosing your team over three or four others.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Offline LGC88

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I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal. 

This is speculation but I think you're mis-reading what happened. I think Horford was nothing more than a lure for Durant. He was Ray Allen 2.0.

At that point, Danny thought we had a really good shot at KD. And we probably did.

But, the chips didn't fall our way, and my personal guess is that since the day Durant signed with the Warriors, Danny has viewed this as a dead team walking for the entire year. That's why he didn't invest in acquiring role players (we have no chance even with them) or stars (even Cousins wouldn't push us over the top).

Stevens once again made life difficult by shoe-horning us into the #1 seed and the curse of expectations. But that's no one's fault. Nor is what's happening now, which is an outcome that would be unsurprising if we were the #4 seed (which, but for a few injuries and other things, we could be).

I think Danny has his mind on May 16th and beyond, and he has no regrets about the decisions he made this year, because he believes we never had a real chance.

TP Boris. Finally someone who see the things as they are.

Offline mctyson

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1)danny-ainge-brad-stevens-playoff-record-criticism-not-making-trade

 http://www.csnne.com/video/danny-ainge-brad-stevens-playoff-record-criticism-not-making-trade


2)danny-ainge-no-celtics-player-has-elevated-their-game

http://www.csnne.com/video/danny-ainge-no-celtics-player-has-elevated-their-game

I do not agree at all with the title of your thread.

I listened to his whole interview.  He clearly said that criticism of him and Brad was "fine" and also said that he believes the team can win the series and that they have yet to play their best basketball.

He also said that he was more than willing to discuss his non-moves at the deadline after the season was over.

Offline PhoSita

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I know I wasn't alone in looking at this team as of the Horford signing and thinking that the bar for this season had been raised to making the second round, at least, or coming close.

I think it's disingenuous for people to look at the team down two games to none against an eight seed in the first round and start saying, oh, well, I never thought they'd contend this year, so none of this matters. We have draft assets and cap space, so none of this matters.

Except that the entire idea of this team's potential to morph into a contender is based on the value of the players we already have in addition to the value of the players they might be able to add this summer. If this series is telling us that maybe the players we have already aren't as valuable as we thought, that chips away at the dream of fireworks.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Offline LGC88

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I don't necessarily think it was the wrong decision to hold back on making a deal at mid-season.   I think what we're seeing in the playoffs right now is proof that this team was not one mid-season acquisition away from making a deep run.

I was very surprised when Horford signed with us last year.  I didn't expect it.  At the same time, I don't think Horford expected that the Hawks would balk at giving him a full max deal. 

This is speculation but I think you're mis-reading what happened. I think Horford was nothing more than a lure for Durant. He was Ray Allen 2.0.

At that point, Danny thought we had a really good shot at KD. And we probably did.

But, the chips didn't fall our way, and my personal guess is that since the day Durant signed with the Warriors, Danny has viewed this as a dead team walking for the entire year. That's why he didn't invest in acquiring role players (we have no chance even with them) or stars (even Cousins wouldn't push us over the top).

Stevens once again made life difficult by shoe-horning us into the #1 seed and the curse of expectations. But that's no one's fault. Nor is what's happening now, which is an outcome that would be unsurprising if we were the #4 seed (which, but for a few injuries and other things, we could be).

I think Danny has his mind on May 16th and beyond, and he has no regrets about the decisions he made this year, because he believes we never had a real chance.

I believe there is truth in what you say, but at the same time, i don't think Danny would make a move like locking up Horford to a long term deal if he felt there wasn't value in doing so independent of whatever decision Durant made.

Once the Horford signing happened, I believe the reasonable expectation for this team became that they would get home court in the first round and win a playoff series or come danged close, so long as major injuries didn't derail things.

If that wasn't the thinking, the Horford signing was a wildly irresponsible move. You don't made a huge long term commitment like that if the value of the move depends entirely upon one specific free agent choosing your team over three or four others.

Knowing Danny, he probably estimates Horford around $18-20 millions.
But if you have a shot at Durant, you sign Horford to the max and you'll do it over an over again without hesitation.
Worse case scenario you have a great vet that will teach good things to the youngsters, an entertaining team and a good image franchise as FA destination.

Offline perks-a-beast

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When I saw the first part of the post title I thought Ainge had been celebrating the 420 holiday today.
Two choices - the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. The pain of regret hurts a whole lot more.

Offline PhoSita

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When I saw the first part of the post title I thought Ainge had been celebrating the 420 holiday today.

Youre thinking "blazed."
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain