Author Topic: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health  (Read 1551 times)

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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2017, 08:40:14 PM »

Offline LilRip

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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.
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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2017, 08:49:53 PM »

Online GreenWarrior

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hopefully danny doesn't buy into this as a reason or excuse.

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2017, 08:53:51 PM »

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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2017, 03:23:13 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.

The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.

One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2017, 06:02:06 AM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Quote
In an event that did not occur in-season (or playoffs) but I think absolutely had residual traumatic impact on a bona-fide championship team -- ask Larry Bird and Kevin McHale if they think that Len Bias' death had an lingering emotional impact on the team's performance in 1987.  The team did make it to the Finals but I think there was a pall over the season (and perhaps beyond) that had an emotional impact.  The Big 3 never won again.

I've always looked at the loss in '87 being due to injuries (physical ones, not mental). Walton became ineffective overnight, McHale broke his foot, and Parish and Ainge were banged up. Plus, that was a great Lakers team.

Bias' death was traumatic, but I don't think it had much to do with the Celtics losing in the Finals.
We'll never know if the 8 fewer wins in 87, or the Finals loss, or even injuries, had any connecion to the Bias death.  Just the possibility that tragedy can impact mental and emotional readiness or physical performance is enough to credibly present the notion that ITs loss (occurring the day before the playoffs began) had a human impact on the team that possibly has nothing to do with weakness or fragility.

I'll bet Bias' death  (and Reggie's) had an impact on the Celtics organization that took a generation to overcome - an organization that was hardly considered weak or fragile.

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2017, 06:52:18 AM »

Offline Big333223

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It also strikes me that if the C's win tonight, the emotional lift of "getting through" what they've been dealing with (IT's grief, the losses) could be a real galvanizing force going forward. If they can put together 2 quality performances in Chicago and put a couple of wins on the board I would be very optimistic about what this team could do together going forward.

It starts with tonight.

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2017, 10:44:32 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.

The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.

One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.

My wife is a psychiatric clinician and is a supervisor at a psychiatric hospital. I understand that emotional trauma exists.

What I disagree with is that the empathy of IT's teammates resembles a team-wide series of debilitating injuries. Rather, if the 14 non-IT members of the team are unable to focus and compartmentalize their emotions, they are missing a key skill for an NBA basketball player. It would be a liability, akin to an overly emotional surgeon or firefighter.

But, I don't buy the theory that the team is sucking because they've been emotionally traumatized. Danny makes the occasional bad decision, but he didn't put together a roster of 14 guys prone to emotional injury.

Similarly, I have a hard time connecting the emotional impact of Bias' death with the physical injuries the 1987 Celtics collapsed from. The physical impact of playing less minutes if Bias was in the rotation? Sure. But Bill Walton's body breaking down because he was emotional that a draft pick died? I don't think that even science fiction can make that connection.


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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2017, 01:00:06 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.


Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2017, 01:12:28 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2017, 02:01:07 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.

So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?


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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2017, 02:06:54 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
Yeah, they're not saying that because it doesn't really compare. Think of it in terms of Maslow's pyramid, where being able to physically hold the ball is the broadest of foundations.
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Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2017, 04:48:00 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.

So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?

I don't know how the Bulls or their coaches have taken to Rondo's injury. Was the coach over at his house to console him? Did Holmberg say it is up to Rondo whether he plays or not? You tell me. What exactly is the Bulls emotional reaction to Rondo's injury?

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2017, 05:59:02 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.

The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.

One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.

My wife is a psychiatric clinician and is a supervisor at a psychiatric hospital. I understand that emotional trauma exists.

What I disagree with is that the empathy of IT's teammates resembles a team-wide series of debilitating injuries. Rather, if the 14 non-IT members of the team are unable to focus and compartmentalize their emotions, they are missing a key skill for an NBA basketball player. It would be a liability, akin to an overly emotional surgeon or firefighter.

But, I don't buy the theory that the team is sucking because they've been emotionally traumatized. Danny makes the occasional bad decision, but he didn't put together a roster of 14 guys prone to emotional injury.

Similarly, I have a hard time connecting the emotional impact of Bias' death with the physical injuries the 1987 Celtics collapsed from. The physical impact of playing less minutes if Bias was in the rotation? Sure. But Bill Walton's body breaking down because he was emotional that a draft pick died? I don't think that even science fiction can make that connection.
This is a surprising misinterpretation of my post.  There is plenty of scientific evidence that emotional trauma can have physical manifestations (in fact, often does - you are aware that stress reduction is a part of treatment plans for a host of physical ailments -- stress is a well accepted exacerbator of disease).  I never said that injuries WERE caused by emotional trauma for the 87 C's, just that it's a possible factor.  It is ignorant to presume that trauma did or didn't play a role since circumstantial evidence is all that is available to support either point of view.  Let me be  clear though - I don't think Walton's body broke down because of Len Bias' death.  I DO, however, think trauma impacts outcomes in strange ways - even for mentally tough people.  My guess is your wife would concur.

Re: the surgeon - given an option I'd almost always opt for the surgeon who hadn't lost a loved one, or a co-worker, or who had had a good night's sleep the night before my surgery.  I'm not saying most surgeons can't handle stress very well, but I am suggesting that every human being is impacted by stress -- and if a potentially traumatic event occurs, even the most mentally tough can be impacted.  Is it possible that a tough team can be impacted by a teammate's tragedy? - yes it is.  Does this make them weak? Well, I'm not sure but I would be hesitant to draw a definitive conclusion either way. Time will tell.

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2017, 06:05:06 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.

So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?

Really?  Your sarcasm compares Rondo's thumb to ITs sister. I'll answer your rhetorical plainly - no, Rondo's thumb injury will not traumatize his teammates.  If it does then they are indeed mentally weak.

Re: there is still an under-appreciation of emotional health
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2017, 12:57:38 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.

So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?

Really?  Your sarcasm compares Rondo's thumb to ITs sister. I'll answer your rhetorical plainly - no, Rondo's thumb injury will not traumatize his teammates.  If it does then they are indeed mentally weak.

Because that's the premise being presented, which to me is ridiculous. The discussion is centered around the impact of IT's tragedy yet the previous poster brings up Rondo's thumb as some bizarre means to support his case. What else can Roy do but discredit the evidence presented?

- LilRip