Author Topic: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?  (Read 1127 times)

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Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« on: April 19, 2017, 01:25:28 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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The results of this series thus far have me wondering if it's even worth it for Danny to have a plan. After all, the best-laid plans of mice and men tend to crap out, and a lot of what we would call "success" in pro sports has quite a bit to do with being in the right place at the right time.

To wit:

The Spurs lose their best player, David Robinson, for an entire season, then beat the lottery odds to land the No. 1 pick and get Tim Duncan. I realize that a lot of other things had to go right, but that was really the key. Pop's a great coach, but he's not winning all those titles without Duncan.

Pau Gasol turning out to be way better than anyone thought he'd be was key to the Lakers' last two titles.

Miami's last two titles were only because the Superfriends decided to go there instead of Cleveland or Toronto.

And so on and so forth.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any planning or direction, but it also seems, a lot of times, that there has to be some very fortunate occurrence that sets everything in motion. Again using the Spurs as an example, they have a great owner, great GM, great coach, and great scouts, and quite a few players want to be there now—but it's possible that none of that translates to titles and sustained success without Robinson getting severely injured and the pingpong balls falling San Antonio's way.

All of which is to say, Danny striking gold with KG and Ray was probably a once-in-a-lifetime situation that can never be replicated, yet he seems to be trying to replicate that, waiting, waiting, waiting for that star or two to become available.

That star might've been available in Cousins, but if so, Danny obviously didn't want to take that risk.

That's his choice, but I don't see any situation where a transcendent player like KG is going to become available anytime soon.

Even if available, Jimmy Butler and Paul George are not on that level. Neither is Kevin Love. LeBron isn't going to be available in his prime. Probably the same for Durant, and we already struck out with him anyway.

Plus, who wants to trade with Ainge now? As much as he struggles at drafting, he succeeds in trading, but everyone knows that now and doesn't want to deal with him. And not only do other GMs mistrust Danny, they know that his leverage lessens as various deadlines approach, because at some point he has to actually use those assets—trade exceptions expire, cap room does no good if it's not used, and he has way too many draft picks. So other teams just won't bite, preferring to watch Danny and his assets wither on the vine than take the risk of inadvertently helping him.

So I guess things are mostly riding on the draft? But what if Boston gets the third, or even fourth, pick instead of first or second? What if Ainge gets the first pick and drafts Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan, Darko Mlicic instead of Dwyane Wade?

The Thunder had great draft success but reached only one Finals (and lost). They had Durant, Westbrook, and Harden and still couldn't win it all; can we expect to have anywhere close to that drafting success?

The Bucks aren't known for sound management but they landed Giannis, and the current Bucks team has more raw talent (and more poise under pressure) than this Celtics team.

Many have speculated that Danny is keeping his options open, trying to compete as much as possible now while still retaining enough assets to make a big move should the right opportunity present itself.

But is that really his plan?

If so, does it even matter?
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

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Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 01:29:49 PM »

Offline jade88

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I think he's been stuck between maybe full on rebuilding through the draft and wanting a quick turnaround. The quick turnaround was absolutely an option with Cousins, and maybe even Butler/George available, he's just not willing to forgo the youth rebuild to go that route. He's teetering on what to do and i'm sick of it.

By the time he figures out what to do, he'll have wasted our time supporting a good team he never wanted to take to the next level.

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 01:36:46 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I think he's been stuck between maybe full on rebuilding through the draft and wanting a quick turnaround. The quick turnaround was absolutely an option with Cousins, and maybe even Butler/George available, he's just not willing to forgo the youth rebuild to go that route. He's teetering on what to do and i'm sick of it.

By the time he figures out what to do, he'll have wasted our time supporting a good team he never wanted to take to the next level.

What gets me is that it seems like Danny wants to sucker someone into giving up Superstar A for Role Players X and Y and so-so draft picks, but everyone's onto him now. No current GM wants to be seen as the next Billy King, the jester of Ainge's court.

And Ainge acts like our role players are stars and all the draft picks are gonna be stars, and seems to severely prefer the unknown to the known. I just don't get it.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis


Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 01:39:12 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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what is your point?

The Celtics have a terrific foundation for success.

In Basketball all you can do is put yourself in really good positions, maximize flexibility and hope you get lucky.

there is no surefire way to build a champion. Ainge has us in a terrific position to get lucky. If the right star becomes available, we can pursure him, in FA or trade. We also have enough draft capital to take a couple swings at guys with star potential.

We are in great position.
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Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 01:42:00 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Yeah he has a plan haha. People need to relax on this board. Ainge is going to continue to attempt to add stars through trades and free agency, while also drafting stars...That's the plan. I'm starting to worry about his draft skills. He did like Winslow...
They didn't "lose" Teague -- they got rid of him because Schroder made him redundant. Other than that, they replaced Horford with Howard. Injuries or no injuries, our roster is not any more superior than it was last season. Probably less.

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Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2017, 01:57:24 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think the most recent iteration of the plan was basically "Be competitive with Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, and Horford and jump on the first good opportunity to add a superstar."

The fall-back option for a while has been those Nets picks.  If Danny can't launch this team to contender status, those picks will allow the team to basically go for a youth movement with multiple high draft picks instead.


These playoffs are changing the equation a bit, I think.  Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Horford no longer looks like a viable foundation upon which to build a contender.  Even if you add another star to this mix -- the most likely options would seem to be George, Hayward, or Griffin -- I'm not sure the resulting team would have a chance of even making the Finals.

We're learning that you simply can't expect to have good matchups in the playoffs when 4 of your 5 starters are significantly undersized for their primary position.

This group can't score without Isaiah, they can't protect the boards, and they're generally just not very good defensively.


Heading into this summer, I now believe Danny needs to look at changing up the core group of this team at the same time that he looks to add more talent.  If he can't do that, I would say that it's time to go broke for youth.

If the Celts get the #1 pick and Fultz is the guy, maybe that's the best option anyway.

Hand the reins to Fultz and see what we can do with Fultz, Smart, Brown, and Zizic.  Plenty more draft picks on the way after this year, too.
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Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 02:02:01 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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I think the most recent iteration of the plan was basically "Be competitive with Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, and Horford and jump on the first good opportunity to add a superstar."

The fall-back option for a while has been those Nets picks.  If Danny can't launch this team to contender status, those picks will allow the team to basically go for a youth movement with multiple high draft picks instead.


These playoffs are changing the equation a bit, I think.  Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Horford no longer looks like a viable foundation upon which to build a contender.  Even if you add another star to this mix -- the most likely options would seem to be George, Hayward, or Griffin -- I'm not sure the resulting team would have a chance of even making the Finals.

We're learning that you simply can't expect to have good matchups in the playoffs when 4 of your 5 starters are significantly undersized for their primary position.

This group can't score without Isaiah, they can't protect the boards, and they're generally just not very good defensively.


Heading into this summer, I now believe Danny needs to look at changing up the core group of this team at the same time that he looks to add more talent.  If he can't do that, I would say that it's time to go broke for youth.

If the Celts get the #1 pick and Fultz is the guy, maybe that's the best option anyway.

Hand the reins to Fultz and see what we can do with Fultz, Smart, Brown, and Zizic.  Plenty more draft picks on the way after this year, too.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. I do think this year opens up more inclination to trade Bradley or Crowder. Honestly IT thing is an issue as well. GS is able to hide Curry, so we would need similar defenders as them. I mean Thompson, Durant, Iggy, and Green is a very nice luxury to have.

The problem is I don't think there will be many trade partners out there this year.
They didn't "lose" Teague -- they got rid of him because Schroder made him redundant. Other than that, they replaced Horford with Howard. Injuries or no injuries, our roster is not any more superior than it was last season. Probably less.

-Koz

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 02:02:22 PM »

Online Rosco917

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I'm beginning to question Danny's idea of what a championship team plays like, and looks like. So yes...I'm beginning to question his long range plans.

He's having trouble excepting that small ball will only take you so far, if it's not balanced with talented size also.

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 02:03:42 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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what is your point?

The Celtics have a terrific foundation for success.

In Basketball all you can do is put yourself in really good positions, maximize flexibility and hope you get lucky.

there is no surefire way to build a champion. Ainge has us in a terrific position to get lucky. If the right star becomes available, we can pursure him, in FA or trade. We also have enough draft capital to take a couple swings at guys with star potential.

We are in great position.

I think my point is clear: Danny might be doing a whole lot of scheming and planning for nothing.

The Spurs lucked into Duncan, the Lakers lucked into Gasol, the Heat lucked into the Superfriends; even the Cavs got a bit lucky with some draft picks that were higher than the odds predicted. And none of those teams at those times had great assets, other than maybe cap space. They didn't have the so-called "treasure trove" that Danny has.

It's like Danny is waiting for a perfect situation—á la KG and Ray—that might very well not exist. Or, alternatively, he's banking everything on getting THE MAN in this year's draft, which could very well not happen.

Plus, these guys are coming out of college so young that they're just getting good—if they get good at all—when their rookie deals are expiring, so the team is gonna have to pony up the big bucks at some point regardless. This isn't like baseball, where a team can groom lots of good young players and afford to hang onto them, where top prospects are often really good well before their rookie deals expire (think Trout, Betts, Harper).

I don't mean to open the Cousins can of worms, but his talent is what this team needs—as opposed to "stretch bigs" (translation: guys who can't block shots or rebound or get physical) and "combo guards" (translation: guys who are aren't great at either dribbling or passing or shooting). Great opportunities don't come along often, and I feel like Danny missed one there.

Like I said in one of the game threads, Danny better turn these two Brooklyn picks into two superstars, or all of this maneuvering and waiting and scheming will be for naught.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis


Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 02:18:52 PM »

Online furball

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I think the monkey wrench in Danny's plan is that this team keeps winning (in the reg season).  He is still building this team and has never even suggested that this is a great team, a finished team, or a contender.  He is still patiently building the team (like stashing the big we need in Europe this year) for the long haul but the winning keeps giving most fans high expectations. 

As far as should he be planning??  Well yeah a lot of teams have lucked out to build championship teams.  But a lot haven't.  Say oh, the 80's Celtics.  Or Golden State.  Besides, what else is he, or any team supposed to do??  Just sit around and hope for ping pong balls??  Hienke tried that and it got him fired. 

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 02:33:37 PM »

Offline Hank Finkel

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I'm beginning to question Danny's idea of what a championship team plays like, and looks like. So yes...I'm beginning to question his long range plans.

He's having trouble excepting that small ball will only take you so far, if it's not balanced with talented size also.
I have questioned his plan since the trade of Perk.  He doesn't value big men who rebound and are tough.  This is his downfall as a GM.  Basketball is played at the very highest level with great big men.  We have none.  DA needs to revamp his whole thought process.  Small basketball players can only do so much.

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2017, 10:31:34 PM »

Online Moranis

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I don't buy the premise of this thread at all. 

Sure San Antonio didn't plan on Robinson getting hurt, but once he was, they went into full on tank mode and ended up with the 3rd worst record (which historically has led to more #1 picks than any other position). 

Pau Gasol was an all star before he ever landed in Los Angeles.  All of the major stats (aside from rebounds) his career high was set in Memphis, not Los Angeles.  Pau Gasol was a great player before he went to L.A., period. 

Pat Riley had been planning for that summer for years.  He made all kinds of moves with the sole intention of entering that summer with the ability to offer 3 near max contracts so that he could lure two other top level free agents to play with Wade in Miami.  Now sure, he couldn't really know that James and Bosh would go there, but it was only possible because of the groundwork Riley had laid years prior. 

Sure it takes some luck to build a champion, but every championship team is built by some sort of plan.  Maybe it is a plan like Philly to downright suck for multiple seasons, maybe it is a plan to create cap space for multiple max players and swing for the fences (like Boston did last summer and Miami did in 2010), maybe it is to draft players only to trade them for veterans (like Ainge did in 2008), etc.  You don't build a championship team without a plan.
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Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 02:49:41 PM »

Online wdleehi

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Yes. 


The part of the plan that is hard for fans is still being patient.  Sure, there are rumors and discussions about other teams stars and trades, but nothing happened.  No one else swept in and traded for those players either. 


Those teams want a kings ransom, and no team is offering it. 


He and the Celtics are clearly not worried about being a legitimate contender yet.  They are still looking to build at their cost. 

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Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 04:27:58 PM »

Offline cltc5

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He has no clue.  He's been trying to recreate the summer of 08 and it ain't gonna happen.  It's time to build a team... a legit 5 position team not a bunch of ****n assets we throw around every year and try to squeeze every announce of overachievement out of them.  This draft will come and go.  The summer will come and go and the playoffs will be right where we are now. 

Re: Does Danny have a plan? Is it even worth having a plan?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 04:49:39 PM »

Offline mspring

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I believe Ainge has a plan and it is a great plan. Sports fans/commentators are so fickle sometimes.  Early this year and for the past 4 years people have praised Ainge's rebuild and said the Celtics are doing something that is extremely rare, i.e. rebuilding while also fielding a competitive team.  Now we lose our first 2 playoff games and all of that is thrown out the window?  Seriously?  We still have great draft picks in this years draft and next years draft along with a young core, that hasn't changed.  Cowherd has been ripping Ainge for not making trades at the deadline, specifically Butler or Paul George, but if you have to gut the core of your team to make a deal for Butler, then you become no different than the Bulls.  If the Bulls would take some draft picks and young players and you could add Butler or George while keeping most of our core, then Ainge probably does it.  If the Bulls are asking for our 2 Brooklyn 1sts along with Crowder, Bradley and Smart then we lose a lot of our core and a lot of our future core for 1 player.  If you say the Bulls should make this trade, then they would end up with Crowder, Bradley, Smart, and the 2 Brooklyn 1sts.  If they should make this trade, then we shouldn't because we already have all of them.  Anyway, I believe Ainge has a plan and he would make a trade for a superstar if we could still keep the bulk of our core in tact.  Otherwise he is committed to building through the draft.  By the way we have a couple of examples of teams that were primarily built through the draft, i.e. Golden State.  They drafted Curry, Thompson, Draymond, Harrison Barnes; they signed a free agent that was a core player in Igudola, but before they even signed Durant much of their core was built through the draft and it took some time.  The Thunder built their team primarily through the draft up until they lost Durant to free agency.  Ultimately I believe we are still in a great position and am excited to see what the future holds!