First Take Is SPOT ON About C's

[Phantom255x]

Whether you like them or not, SAS and Max made valid points about the C's:

- Very commendable that IT is playing despite what has happened, and it's amazing he's even doing what he's doing despite that (averging 26.5 PPG through first two games).

- After Isaiah, NO ONE CAN SCORE. (Obvious)

- Horford is getting outplayed by Lopez. They also talked about how Horford was apart of both the Hawks "overrated" #1 seed two years ago, and is now part of this one.

- Brad Stevens is NOT at fault. Stephen A. Smith says it's ridiculous how the Celtics are missing so many open look shots, and I agree completely. Lopez is consistently knocking down open 15-18 footers, Celtics can't consistently, that's a big problem. What's Brad supposed to do, even the bench can't score (though maybe Gerald Green should be coming in more too). Imagine Popovich coaching a game where his guys shoot ice cold. Even he wouldn't win many of those games

- Celtics have a BRIGHT future, but right now look lost and even scared at times.

- It's a shame no one is stepping up outside of Isaiah and occasionally Smart (matching his intensity)

Max thinks the Celtics will bounce back and at least make this a 6-7 game series, but SAS thinks if the Celtics don't play with any urgency, it's a sweep, and an underwhelming one. SAS calls this the "worst #1 seed in history" so far, and Max counters that there's still a long way to go in this series.

Thoughts?

[kraidstar]

Whether you like them or not, SAS and Max made valid points about the C's:

- Very commendable that IT is playing despite what has happened, and it's amazing he's even doing what he's doing despite that (averging 26.5 PPG through first two games).

- After Isaiah, NO ONE CAN SCORE. (Obvious)

- Horford is getting outplayed by Lopez. They also talked about how Horford was apart of both the Hawks "overrated" #1 seed two years ago, and is now part of this one.

- Brad Stevens is NOT at fault. Stephen A. Smith says it's ridiculous how the Celtics are missing so many open look shots, and I agree completely. Lopez is consistently knocking down open 15-18 footers, Celtics can't consistently, that's a big problem. What's Brad supposed to do, even the bench can't score (though maybe Gerald Green should be coming in more too). Imagine Popovich coaching a game where his guys shoot ice cold. Even he wouldn't win many of those games

- Celtics have a BRIGHT future, but right now look lost and even scared at times.

- It's a shame no one is stepping up outside of Isaiah and occasionally Smart (matching his intensity)

Max thinks the Celtics will bounce back and at least make this a 6-7 game series, but SAS thinks if the Celtics don't play with any urgency, it's a sweep, and an underwhelming one. SAS calls this the "worst #1 seed in history" so far, and Max counters that there's still a long way to go in this series.

Thoughts?

I can't really disagree with any of those points.

Disturbing that Horford was part of those two #1 seeds. He is a seasoned vet and should be leading the younger guys.

[Atzar]

Can't argue with any of that.

Thus far in this series, the #8 seed has looked comfortable, confident, and poised.  They give steady effort in all phases of the game.  They don't overreact to Celtics runs; they just keep doing their thing. 

The #1 seed has looked anxious, unfocused, and erratic.  It looks like they're carrying the weight of the world right now.  Inconsistent effort; they gave more of it in Game 2 but not always in a healthy way.  They go through periods of manic energy when they're flying all over the court, which will occasionally generate runs but also causes mistakes.  Those mistakes lead to counter-punches, which lead to frustration and desperation, which lead to more errors... and so the spiral goes.  This is a fragile, emotional team right now.  I think they're feeding on IT's state of mind, and while I don't blame IT for that, it's a problem nonetheless.

And I don't know how you solve it.  The team needs somebody to lead them through this - not a coach, but somebody out there fighting alongside them - but IT can hardly hold himself together right now, let alone his teammates.  And I don't know who else can do it.  Bradley and Horford don't have that type of personality, and I don't think anybody else commands that level of respect.  A couple of weeks ago, we heard about Jerebko speaking to the team.  We applauded him for saying what needed to be said, but perhaps we should have been concerned that the task fell that far down the totem pole before somebody decided to handle it. 

Either they'll figure this out or they won't.  We'll see.

[Phantom255x]

Whether you like them or not, SAS and Max made valid points about the C's:

- Very commendable that IT is playing despite what has happened, and it's amazing he's even doing what he's doing despite that (averging 26.5 PPG through first two games).

- After Isaiah, NO ONE CAN SCORE. (Obvious)

- Horford is getting outplayed by Lopez. They also talked about how Horford was apart of both the Hawks "overrated" #1 seed two years ago, and is now part of this one.

- Brad Stevens is NOT at fault. Stephen A. Smith says it's ridiculous how the Celtics are missing so many open look shots, and I agree completely. Lopez is consistently knocking down open 15-18 footers, Celtics can't consistently, that's a big problem. What's Brad supposed to do, even the bench can't score (though maybe Gerald Green should be coming in more too). Imagine Popovich coaching a game where his guys shoot ice cold. Even he wouldn't win many of those games

- Celtics have a BRIGHT future, but right now look lost and even scared at times.

- It's a shame no one is stepping up outside of Isaiah and occasionally Smart (matching his intensity)

Max thinks the Celtics will bounce back and at least make this a 6-7 game series, but SAS thinks if the Celtics don't play with any urgency, it's a sweep, and an underwhelming one. SAS calls this the "worst #1 seed in history" so far, and Max counters that there's still a long way to go in this series.

Thoughts?

I can't really disagree with any of those points.

Disturbing that Horford was part of those two #1 seeds. He is a seasoned vet and should be leading the younger guys.

Been a tale of two games for Horford. Stud in Game 1 (near Triple double), then gone in Game 2. Unfortunately besides IT, no one else in this game has shown up in BOTH games.. (IT wasn't great but still managed 20 points last night with the circumstances he's dealing with).

[slamtheking]

well, SAS is a loudmouth idiot.  that seems to be a common thought though.

for the other stuff:
- as I've mentioned in many other threads, this team lives and dies by the jumper.  they've been dying the first 2 games.  Other than IT driving and occasionally going to Horford down low, they have no other offensive schemes besides shooting 3's for the most part.  If this team was making half the open shots they missed, they'd be up 2-0 in the series and no one would be complaining or posting doom-and-gloom forecasts.
- Horford needs help up front.  he's not getting much from Amir and pretty much nothing out of KO.  Zeller provided some help starting off the second half in game 2 and the C's started bouncing back.  no real coincidence there.  A definite need that has to be addressed this offseason but for the playoffs, we're in trouble.
- I can't pile on IT because he's dealing with some serious personal issues so kudos to him for pushing through it but only Smart is playing with any real urgency in this series.  Brown and Rozier are trying but they're not making an impact.  Everyone else is just lost out there, including Horford to an extent.  (Al's been productive on offense when they've focussed on him but they don't do it nearly enough).
- Stevens can only work with what he has at his disposal.  I've said it many times and been lambasted for it but this is a team of role players.  Other than Horford, in a perfect world every other starter we have would be coming off the bench, including IT.  That'll get me smoked here again but I still believe we need better players at all positions.  They really overachieved this year (or more likely, other teams in the East really underperformed -- particularly Toronto and Cleveland).  Stevens' rotations have been questionable at times but when no one's hitting shots and no one's rebounding, everything looks bad.
- the future does look bright --> 2 more top picks coming from the Nets, Brown looks like a good prospect, Smart comes to play every night and even when his shot is off he still contributes in many ways.  Good cap flexibility to add better players.  Current players under decent contracts that can be used for trades. 
- I don't see a sweep.  They've been kicked in the teeth pretty hard though.  We should get a good look into their mental make-up with how they come out for game 3 (should have seen it in game 2 but trying to be optimistic).  If they don't come out with the fire to win, there's got to be some serious changes this offseason.  If they come out playing to win, I think they could end up taking the game and bounce back in the series.

The point I don't see them making is Rondo.  This is what I had mentioned in many other posts -- particularly ones concerning IT's future with this team.  I'm not in love with IT's game (I hate score-first PGs) and don't see him as a particularly good facilitator on offense.  He's a phenomenal scorer - one that would be best served coming off the bench behind a starting unit that's better balanced with scorers.  I had cautioned those who thought IT would carry this team that for each of the past 2 playoff series, the opposing PGs feasted on IT by taking him in the post or just plain going over him for shots/passes.  Rondo is doing exactly that to the point where he's looking like Playoff Rondo from years past.  If Rondo had a decent outside shot, he could average over 20 points against IT with 10 assists easily.  I'll still get crucified for this comment but when the same thing happens 3 consecutive years in the playoffs against 3 different PGs, it's not an aberration but the norm.

in the end, I think they can bounce back and take this series but only if they start hitting those open shots (all of them -- AB, Crowder, Amir, KO and whoever else comes off the bench) and gang-rebound.  They have more overall talent but Chicago has the guys who have won titles in Wade and Rondo (so they know what's needed to win) and the best player in Butler.  They're going to have to fight and claw their way to wins at this point.

[jpotter33]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

[kraidstar]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

He's been very poor, and that initial penetration has led to a lot of defensive breakdowns later in possessions.

When he and KO are on the court together it is a lot of bad D to have to compensate for.

This is why we need some legit 2-way stars.

[tankcity!]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

Bradley and Crowder haven't been good on D as well. Lopez has been open most of the series? Yet IT is a major part of it?!?!?

IT has not been great defenisvely, but he is only part of the problem, not a major part. And Smart has played well on offense, but I've watched him get burned as well.

Remember when you thought we were one rim protector away and a Jimmy Butler from competing with Cleveland? Those were the days. Eh, I was wrong about Rozier this year so nobody is perfect.

[Ilikesports17]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

Bradley and Crowder haven't been good on D as well. Lopez has been open most of the series? Yet IT is a major part of it?!?!?

IT has not been great defenisvely, but he is only part of the problem, not a major part. And Smart has played well on offense, but I've watched him get burned as well.

Remember when you thought we were one rim protector away and a Jimmy Butler from competing with Cleveland? Those were the days. Eh, I was wrong about Rozier this year so nobody is perfect.

you were wrong about Rozier, but after Marcus Smart he might have been our best player last night.

IT is a major part of the problem. Rondo is completely dominating him. He catches the ball wherever he wants and every time the Bulls run pick and roll and IT they get whatever they want. Couple this with Chicago's ability to really limit Thomas on offense and he was a huge negative last night.

I think a lot of it has to do with his mental state so Im not gonna jump down the guys throat, but he is a big reason we lost last night.

[tankcity!]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

Bradley and Crowder haven't been good on D as well. Lopez has been open most of the series? Yet IT is a major part of it?!?!?

IT has not been great defenisvely, but he is only part of the problem, not a major part. And Smart has played well on offense, but I've watched him get burned as well.

Remember when you thought we were one rim protector away and a Jimmy Butler from competing with Cleveland? Those were the days. Eh, I was wrong about Rozier this year so nobody is perfect.

you were wrong about Rozier, but after Marcus Smart he might have been our best player last night.

IT is a major part of the problem. Rondo is completely dominating him. He catches the ball wherever he wants and every time the Bulls run pick and roll and IT they get whatever they want. Couple this with Chicago's ability to really limit Thomas on offense and he was a huge negative last night.

I think a lot of it has to do with his mental state so Im not gonna jump down the guys throat, but he is a big reason we lost last night.

So a part of that in my opinion is caused by Brad Stevens. We're covering Rondo tightly when we should make him shoot off a pick honestly. Like go under the screen. Also, the help has been terrible. You can say Rondo was dominating, but so were Butler, Wade, and Lopez. I don't see How IT should be blamed for the majority when all those players played so well. Not to mention that 6'9 Euro player that came out of nowhere. I don't know his name and I have never seen him play basketball before either.

[Phantom255x]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

That's true.

But who can you turn to especially on offense when IT is on the bench? No one.

No one is denying Isaiah's defensive defencies either, but what exactly are our other elite defenders doing? Bradley? Crowder? Smart is the only guy showing intensity but honestly even in Game 1 he wasn't that great.

I'll give IT a small pass because of his mental state, and it's not like he's been absent out there (averaging 26.5 PPG).

[Ilikesports17]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

Bradley and Crowder haven't been good on D as well. Lopez has been open most of the series? Yet IT is a major part of it?!?!?

IT has not been great defenisvely, but he is only part of the problem, not a major part. And Smart has played well on offense, but I've watched him get burned as well.

Remember when you thought we were one rim protector away and a Jimmy Butler from competing with Cleveland? Those were the days. Eh, I was wrong about Rozier this year so nobody is perfect.

you were wrong about Rozier, but after Marcus Smart he might have been our best player last night.

IT is a major part of the problem. Rondo is completely dominating him. He catches the ball wherever he wants and every time the Bulls run pick and roll and IT they get whatever they want. Couple this with Chicago's ability to really limit Thomas on offense and he was a huge negative last night.

I think a lot of it has to do with his mental state so Im not gonna jump down the guys throat, but he is a big reason we lost last night.

So a part of that in my opinion is caused by Brad Stevens. We're covering Rondo tightly when we should make him shoot off a pick honestly. Like go under the screen. Also, the help has been terrible. You can say Rondo was dominating, but so were Butler, Wade, and Lopez. I don't see How IT should be blamed for the majority when all those players played so well. Not to mention that 6'9 Euro player that came out of nowhere. I don't know his name and I have never seen him play basketball before either.

Lol, Zipser. I thought Wade and butler made some big shots, but Isaiah allowed Rondo to control the entire game.

that said, you are correct. Other guys deserve blame. Obviously this would be easier to fix if we didnt have miserable bigs getting owned by Robin Lopez. Brad deserves blame too.

I just think Isaiah's defense last night was the single biggest problem last night. Hard to blame the guy given what he is going through, but he was awful on that side of the ball.

[Phantom255x]

IT gets it way too easy on here. He's just as big of a reason why we're losing as anything. When you can't stop the first point of attack and allow Rondo to run wild offensively, then you're setting our defense up to fail.

He's not solely responsible for our defensive deficiencies, but he's a major part of it.

Bradley and Crowder haven't been good on D as well. Lopez has been open most of the series? Yet IT is a major part of it?!?!?

IT has not been great defenisvely, but he is only part of the problem, not a major part. And Smart has played well on offense, but I've watched him get burned as well.

Remember when you thought we were one rim protector away and a Jimmy Butler from competing with Cleveland? Those were the days. Eh, I was wrong about Rozier this year so nobody is perfect.

you were wrong about Rozier, but after Marcus Smart he might have been our best player last night.

IT is a major part of the problem. Rondo is completely dominating him. He catches the ball wherever he wants and every time the Bulls run pick and roll and IT they get whatever they want. Couple this with Chicago's ability to really limit Thomas on offense and he was a huge negative last night.

I think a lot of it has to do with his mental state so Im not gonna jump down the guys throat, but he is a big reason we lost last night.

So a part of that in my opinion is caused by Brad Stevens. We're covering Rondo tightly when we should make him shoot off a pick honestly. Like go under the screen. Also, the help has been terrible. You can say Rondo was dominating, but so were Butler, Wade, and Lopez. I don't see How IT should be blamed for the majority when all those players played so well. Not to mention that 6'9 Euro player that came out of nowhere. I don't know his name and I have never seen him play basketball before either.

Lol, Zipser. I thought Wade and butler made some big shots, but Isaiah allowed Rondo to control the entire game.

that said, you are correct. Other guys deserve blame. Obviously this would be easier to fix if we didnt have miserable bigs getting owned by Robin Lopez. Brad deserves blame too.

I just think Isaiah's defense last night was the single biggest problem last night. Hard to blame the guy given what he is going through, but he was awful on that side of the ball.

What about Game 1? I saw pretty much the same thing in Game 2 that I saw Game 1.

Lopez killing the team, their front court manhandling ours, and many of the C's missing open looks (even layups).

IT's defense wasn't great yesterday, but that wasn't the single biggest problem. Besides Smart, who exactly was playing defense yesterday anyways?

[BlackCeltic]

I agree totally that IT was the single biggest problem besides rebounding. When Smart and Rozier came in we went on runs , knees bent clapping on defense. I like IT offensively but what's the point if he is going to be a turnstile defensively. Then on top of it he yells at his teammates for not being alert enough to cover his mistakes. Let him come off the bench until he gets his mind right.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

- Celtics have a BRIGHT future

Do they?

I've thought so for a while, but now I'm questioning that.

It seems to me that Danny doesn't want to swing a trade unless he can totally fleece the trade partner, like he did with Billy King. Current GMs, understandably, don't want to be the next Billy King and are playing hardball with Ainge.

That leaves free agency and the draft.

Right now, the biggest free-agent acquisition in Celtics history is vastly underperforming and failing to step up and lead when the team needs it most. Danny might very well have saddled the organization with a significantly underperforming asset for the next several years.

The draft? Always a crapshoot. We could get the next Jordan; we could get the next Darko; we could get anywhere in between. In fact, the draft has the least amount of certainty when it comes to methods of player acquisition.

This series is the perfect opportunity for any of the current Celtics to step up and shine, help the team—heck, even make a name for themselves and help secure a big contract. Crowder. Bradley. Olynyk. Brown. Smart. Others. None is taking the bull by the horns (pardon the pun).

You can claim "a bright future" for only so long. At some point it has to translate into tangible results. At some point assets have to be cashed in. It's a big risk to pin everything (or mostly everything) on the '17 and '18 Nets picks; either (or both) of those might not pan out, and even if they do, it likely won't be until several years from now, by which time Horford and IT will likely be gone, our current "value deals" like Bradley and Crowder will be getting paid a lot more (likely by someone else), and the team will be no closer to a title than it is now. I certainly wouldn't bank on big-time free agents coming here after this debacle.