I did not watch the game - Smart and Olynyk

[Ilikesports17]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

stats do lie.

they absolutely do.

especially when you are using them to compare a player who has had this said about him countless times.
"sometimes those go in a box score, sometimes they don't. But he does them every game. That's why I don't get too caught up in the box score stuff with him. He impacts winning"-Brad Stevens
"That's what Marcus Smart does," Thomas said in a postgame interview with Comcast SportsNet. "That's the definition of what he does. I don't know how he gets those rebounds, how he gets those loose balls. But he always finds a way.""-Isaiah Thomas
 and a guy who is playing for a bottom feeder.

TJ Mcconnell put up more apg with less turnovers in fewer mpg than Elfrid Payton on a similarly horrible team. Are those numbers lying? you bet they are.

LOL TJ Mconnel.

TJ is nowhere as dynamic as Payton.

TJ also has better stats than Marcus.

I really don't know who is better offensively , TJ might get the nod over Marcus lol.

Which is why you are missing the point.

Marcus is historically terrible as an offensive player. I mean horrible.


Payton is way better than Mcconnel , I laugh that you had to bring him in to the convo. Even for the reason of trying to prove that stats lie.


Just admit that Marcus Smart's reason for playing time is because he hustles and plays hard on defense.

wont admit the italicized because it implies anyone could be Marcus Smart if they tried hard which is patently absurd.

the bolded is why no one wants to have this argument with you again for the 500th time.

I mention TJ McConnell because he had better passing numbers than Elfrid Payton (who youve now compared to Rondo, Stockton, Nash and Chris Paul) as evidence that stats do lie, especially down the stretch for a bottom feeding team.

I literally was writing that Payton is better than McConnell and you "lol"d and wrote that Payton was better than McConnell.

point Celtics2030 I suppose?

this argument is old and tired. Ill take Marcus and until Payton does anything to prove he isnt a solid stats bad team case, Ill continue to take Marcus.

[Eddie20]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

You may not know what a broken shot means, but it refers to the the form a player has. Smart's isn't perfect, but it surely isn't broken.

If he can address the one major weakness in his game – his wonky shooting mechanics – the Magic could have themselves one heck of a backcourt between Payton and Victor Oladipo.

According to new Magic head coach Scott Skiles, Payton is already working out the kinks for his sophomore campaign.

"He's in here, he has made a commitment this summer to correct some technical issues with his shots – not get it behind his ear, get it out in front of him," Skiles told Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix.

[mahcus smaht]

spoiler alert: Ill take Smart over Payton

he was disappointing last night.

defense has to be better and hes got to make those wide open threes.

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

You may not know what a broken shot means, but it refers to the the form a player has. Smart's isn't perfect, but it surely isn't broken.

If he can address the one major weakness in his game – his wonky shooting mechanics – the Magic could have themselves one heck of a backcourt between Payton and Victor Oladipo.

According to new Magic head coach Scott Skiles, Payton is already working out the kinks for his sophomore campaign.

"He's in here, he has made a commitment this summer to correct some technical issues with his shots – not get it behind his ear, get it out in front of him," Skiles told Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix.

Deandre Jordan's shot looks good as well, too bad he shoots like 20 percent

Smart can have Ray Allen's form for all I'd care , the guy still can't shoot for anything.

[byennie]

It's a perfectly good comparison and absurd to think one is head-and-shoulders above the other.

Elfrid looks better offensively, but even Smart is a better free throw shooter (on more attempts), and the TS% is only 52 vs 49. Payton has slight edges in rebounds and assists, but they are pretty comparable considering different teams and different roles.

Smart is pretty widely regarded as the superior defender.

So there you go- shocking revelation- they are similarly talented point guards of the same age with subjective value. Payton wins on WS. Smart wins on WARP. Hard to say.

Heck, if you look at 3 years cumulative, we're talking 49 to 48 in TS% and 8.9 to 9.0 in win shares. Doubt either one can really claim the throne over the other, yet.

[mahcus smaht]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

You may not know what a broken shot means, but it refers to the the form a player has. Smart's isn't perfect, but it surely isn't broken.

If he can address the one major weakness in his game – his wonky shooting mechanics – the Magic could have themselves one heck of a backcourt between Payton and Victor Oladipo.

According to new Magic head coach Scott Skiles, Payton is already working out the kinks for his sophomore campaign.

"He's in here, he has made a commitment this summer to correct some technical issues with his shots – not get it behind his ear, get it out in front of him," Skiles told Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix.

Deandre Jordan's shot looks good as well, too bad he shoots like 20 percent

Smart can have Ray Allen's form for all I'd care , the guy still can't shoot for anything.

Smart has salvagable form and a 81% ft%.

his shot is decidedly less broken than Payton. Both are miserable shooters.

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

You may not know what a broken shot means, but it refers to the the form a player has. Smart's isn't perfect, but it surely isn't broken.

If he can address the one major weakness in his game – his wonky shooting mechanics – the Magic could have themselves one heck of a backcourt between Payton and Victor Oladipo.

According to new Magic head coach Scott Skiles, Payton is already working out the kinks for his sophomore campaign.

"He's in here, he has made a commitment this summer to correct some technical issues with his shots – not get it behind his ear, get it out in front of him," Skiles told Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix.

Deandre Jordan's shot looks good as well, too bad he shoots like 20 percent

Smart can have Ray Allen's form for all I'd care , the guy still can't shoot for anything.

Smart has salvagable form and a 81% ft%.

his shot is decidedly less broken than Payton. Both are miserable shooters.

Yea one can still field a 47 percent FG percentage because he has actual skills , the other just shoots prayers.



I love how the only thing you have for Marcus is his FT %

NVM that Elfrid improved as well to 69.7% , and improved literally every single month in the season

71% 75% 73% and 82%


Elfird improved in almost every facet for offense.

Smart still can't get abover the 30%'s in FG

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

stats do lie.

they absolutely do.

especially when you are using them to compare a player who has had this said about him countless times.
"sometimes those go in a box score, sometimes they don't. But he does them every game. That's why I don't get too caught up in the box score stuff with him. He impacts winning"-Brad Stevens
"That's what Marcus Smart does," Thomas said in a postgame interview with Comcast SportsNet. "That's the definition of what he does. I don't know how he gets those rebounds, how he gets those loose balls. But he always finds a way.""-Isaiah Thomas
 and a guy who is playing for a bottom feeder.

TJ Mcconnell put up more apg with less turnovers in fewer mpg than Elfrid Payton on a similarly horrible team. Are those numbers lying? you bet they are.

LOL TJ Mconnel.

TJ is nowhere as dynamic as Payton.

TJ also has better stats than Marcus.

I really don't know who is better offensively , TJ might get the nod over Marcus lol.

Which is why you are missing the point.

Marcus is historically terrible as an offensive player. I mean horrible.


Payton is way better than Mcconnel , I laugh that you had to bring him in to the convo. Even for the reason of trying to prove that stats lie.


Just admit that Marcus Smart's reason for playing time is because he hustles and plays hard on defense.

wont admit the italicized because it implies anyone could be Marcus Smart if they tried hard which is patently absurd.

the bolded is why no one wants to have this argument with you again for the 500th time.

I mention TJ McConnell because he had better passing numbers than Elfrid Payton (who youve now compared to Rondo, Stockton, Nash and Chris Paul) as evidence that stats do lie, especially down the stretch for a bottom feeding team.

I literally was writing that Payton is better than McConnell and you "lol"d and wrote that Payton was better than McConnell.

point Celtics2030 I suppose?

this argument is old and tired. Ill take Marcus and until Payton does anything to prove he isnt a solid stats bad team case, Ill continue to take Marcus.

Lol you would take Payton IF he was in Green

and you would rip apart Smart If he was Orlando with the same stats he has as a Celtic.


So of course you would take Marcus. Which is fine.

My entire point is that Elfrid is just more gifted as a basketball player.

Marcus is not. He needs to play defense, make plays to be an effective player (which he does) , but in no way shape or form does he have the skill set.

Something that I think you know is true but under that green mask you are in denial.

[Ilikesports17]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

stats do lie.

they absolutely do.

especially when you are using them to compare a player who has had this said about him countless times.
"sometimes those go in a box score, sometimes they don't. But he does them every game. That's why I don't get too caught up in the box score stuff with him. He impacts winning"-Brad Stevens
"That's what Marcus Smart does," Thomas said in a postgame interview with Comcast SportsNet. "That's the definition of what he does. I don't know how he gets those rebounds, how he gets those loose balls. But he always finds a way.""-Isaiah Thomas
 and a guy who is playing for a bottom feeder.

TJ Mcconnell put up more apg with less turnovers in fewer mpg than Elfrid Payton on a similarly horrible team. Are those numbers lying? you bet they are.

LOL TJ Mconnel.

TJ is nowhere as dynamic as Payton.

TJ also has better stats than Marcus.

I really don't know who is better offensively , TJ might get the nod over Marcus lol.

Which is why you are missing the point.

Marcus is historically terrible as an offensive player. I mean horrible.


Payton is way better than Mcconnel , I laugh that you had to bring him in to the convo. Even for the reason of trying to prove that stats lie.


Just admit that Marcus Smart's reason for playing time is because he hustles and plays hard on defense.

wont admit the italicized because it implies anyone could be Marcus Smart if they tried hard which is patently absurd.

the bolded is why no one wants to have this argument with you again for the 500th time.

I mention TJ McConnell because he had better passing numbers than Elfrid Payton (who youve now compared to Rondo, Stockton, Nash and Chris Paul) as evidence that stats do lie, especially down the stretch for a bottom feeding team.

I literally was writing that Payton is better than McConnell and you "lol"d and wrote that Payton was better than McConnell.

point Celtics2030 I suppose?

this argument is old and tired. Ill take Marcus and until Payton does anything to prove he isnt a solid stats bad team case, Ill continue to take Marcus.

Lol you would take Payton IF he was in Green

and you would rip apart Smart If he was Orlando with the same stats he has as a Celtic.


So of course you would take Marcus. Which is fine.

My entire point is that Elfrid is just more gifted as a basketball player.

Marcus is not. He needs to play defense, make plays to be an effective player (which he does) , but in no way shape or form does he have the skill set.

Something that I think you know is true but under that green mask you are in denial.

Im under a green mask? youve compared Payton to Chris Paul John Stockton Steve Nash and Rajon Rondo. Who is blinded bias?

I wont classify Payton as more gifted because Marcus has gifts too. Marcus is a brilliant defender. he reads players and offenses incredibly well. That is a gift. Marcus is a very strong player. That strength is a gift. Smart has a knack for coming up with loose balls and making winning plays. That is also a gift.

Smart is a very gifted player. He is just gifted in different ways from payton. Payton has much more offensive talent and skill. Ive been of that opinion this entire debate.

Marcus's hustle and intangibles are just as much gifts as Paytons quickness and finishing ability is.

If Marcus was on Orlando it is unlikely that I would like him nearly as much because so much of his impact can only be understood by watching nearly every game and seeing all the looseballs and the little things he does to impact winning. Brad Stevens understands that.


summary:
yes, Smart is only succesful because he competes harder than [dang] near anyone in the league. That is a gift in itself. Most guys dont have that type of drive.

Elfrid is more physically gifted than Marcus Smart. Smart's greatest gifts are in his brain and in his heart.

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

stats do lie.

they absolutely do.

especially when you are using them to compare a player who has had this said about him countless times.
"sometimes those go in a box score, sometimes they don't. But he does them every game. That's why I don't get too caught up in the box score stuff with him. He impacts winning"-Brad Stevens
"That's what Marcus Smart does," Thomas said in a postgame interview with Comcast SportsNet. "That's the definition of what he does. I don't know how he gets those rebounds, how he gets those loose balls. But he always finds a way.""-Isaiah Thomas
 and a guy who is playing for a bottom feeder.

TJ Mcconnell put up more apg with less turnovers in fewer mpg than Elfrid Payton on a similarly horrible team. Are those numbers lying? you bet they are.

LOL TJ Mconnel.

TJ is nowhere as dynamic as Payton.

TJ also has better stats than Marcus.

I really don't know who is better offensively , TJ might get the nod over Marcus lol.

Which is why you are missing the point.

Marcus is historically terrible as an offensive player. I mean horrible.


Payton is way better than Mcconnel , I laugh that you had to bring him in to the convo. Even for the reason of trying to prove that stats lie.


Just admit that Marcus Smart's reason for playing time is because he hustles and plays hard on defense.

wont admit the italicized because it implies anyone could be Marcus Smart if they tried hard which is patently absurd.

the bolded is why no one wants to have this argument with you again for the 500th time.

I mention TJ McConnell because he had better passing numbers than Elfrid Payton (who youve now compared to Rondo, Stockton, Nash and Chris Paul) as evidence that stats do lie, especially down the stretch for a bottom feeding team.

I literally was writing that Payton is better than McConnell and you "lol"d and wrote that Payton was better than McConnell.

point Celtics2030 I suppose?

this argument is old and tired. Ill take Marcus and until Payton does anything to prove he isnt a solid stats bad team case, Ill continue to take Marcus.

Lol you would take Payton IF he was in Green

and you would rip apart Smart If he was Orlando with the same stats he has as a Celtic.


So of course you would take Marcus. Which is fine.

My entire point is that Elfrid is just more gifted as a basketball player.

Marcus is not. He needs to play defense, make plays to be an effective player (which he does) , but in no way shape or form does he have the skill set.

Something that I think you know is true but under that green mask you are in denial.

Im under a green mask? youve compared Payton to Chris Paul John Stockton Steve Nash and Rajon Rondo. Who is blinded bias?

I wont classify Payton as more gifted because Marcus has gifts too. Marcus is a brilliant defender. he reads players and offenses incredibly well. That is a gift. Marcus is a very strong player. That strength is a gift. Smart has a knack for coming up with loose balls and making winning plays. That is also a gift.

Smart is a very gifted player. He is just gifted in different ways from payton. Payton has much more offensive talent and skill. Ive been of that opinion this entire debate.

Marcus's hustle and intangibles are just as much gifts as Paytons quickness and finishing ability is.

If Marcus was on Orlando it is unlikely that I would like him nearly as much because so much of his impact can only be understood by watching nearly every game and seeing all the looseballs and the little things he does to impact winning. Brad Stevens understands that.


summary:
yes, Smart is only succesful because he competes harder than [dang] near anyone in the league. That is a gift in itself. Most guys dont have that type of drive.

Elfrid is more physically gifted than Marcus Smart. Smart's greatest gifts are in his brain and in his heart.

You are digging a grave for yourself big time.

Marcus Smart does not make smart decisions.

Elfrid Payton is a great decision maker. His passes are old school, simple and gets the guys in position to score.

Marcus does that as well, but because of his lack of offensive game , he makes stupid decisions.

I like how he is playing tonight though . ... some bad decisions but tough game and some strong buckets