I did not watch the game - Smart and Olynyk

[The Oracle]

I already know how trash Olynyk is. I followed the game with the game thread to get a feel of the game and saw the play by play with it.

You would think Olynyk was 0-10 and completely destroyed the Celtics chances.

Meanwhile you would think Smart was scoring at will and dunking on people.

Final Stat Lines?

Olynyk 3-8 , 7 points, 1-4 three pointers, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks, 0 turnovers , -9 on the court


Smaht, 3-9 , 9 points, 3-7 three pointers , 2 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 0 blocks, 2 turnovers,
-13

Did Olynyk miss  couple easy layups? or not grab a rebound that was right there? Is that why he was getting blitzed?

On the other hand Smart hit's a couple of huge three pointers to get us back in the game...I guess Smart played as good as anybody can?

What is funny is I dont blame anybody on offense for this loss. It is again our trash defense and horrific rebounding that kills us again and will continue to do so

Classic C's blog tonight.  Overreaction and extremely poor analysis.  If you watch the game with any basketball knowledge and free of bias you will not find in any way that he played poorly!  I just re-watched every play he was on the floor and am very hard pressed to find all this horrible play that he supposedly had on display tonight.

Surely this is sarcasm, right? This might have been KO's worst game as a Celtic he was so bad, especially defensively and on the boards.

No it isn't.  He made one big mistake defensively, the missed box out on Lopez that resulted in a put back dunk.  Super savvy move by Lopez and it happens.  He also left his feet on a pump fake from Portis once resulting in a easy 8 footer over I.T, once again it happens and normally he is very good at not doing this.  There were truly very few rebounding opportunities on the defensive end and the ones he did have are excusable why he did not get them.  Every 2nd chance point scored by Chicago while K.O. was on the floor (10) was with K.O. defending the original shooter save for the Lopez spin move. 

He had 2 steals, 3 blocks, 3 Off. Reb., 5 deflections and 13 contested shots in just 23 minutes, all at or near team highs...

[celtics2030]

I'm surprised OP hasn't brought up Payton yet.

  I don't have to. Nobody else has, and we all know why.

no one has brought up Payton because he isnt in the playoffs and has no relevance to this discussion.

Of course, but if the discussion were about who has been a better player, Payton wins that discussion, especially after being the one who actually improved not regressed. Also given that he has been on a trash team , not a team with a superior coach and superior star.

[celtics2030]

I already know how trash Olynyk is. I followed the game with the game thread to get a feel of the game and saw the play by play with it.

You would think Olynyk was 0-10 and completely destroyed the Celtics chances.

Meanwhile you would think Smart was scoring at will and dunking on people.

Final Stat Lines?

Olynyk 3-8 , 7 points, 1-4 three pointers, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks, 0 turnovers , -9 on the court


Smaht, 3-9 , 9 points, 3-7 three pointers , 2 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 0 blocks, 2 turnovers,
-13

Did Olynyk miss  couple easy layups? or not grab a rebound that was right there? Is that why he was getting blitzed?

On the other hand Smart hit's a couple of huge three pointers to get us back in the game...I guess Smart played as good as anybody can?

What is funny is I dont blame anybody on offense for this loss. It is again our trash defense and horrific rebounding that kills us again and will continue to do so

Classic C's blog tonight.  Overreaction and extremely poor analysis.  If you watch the game with any basketball knowledge and free of bias you will not find in any way that he played poorly!  I just re-watched every play he was on the floor and am very hard pressed to find all this horrible play that he supposedly had on display tonight.

Surely this is sarcasm, right? This might have been KO's worst game as a Celtic he was so bad, especially defensively and on the boards.

No it isn't.  He made one big mistake defensively, the missed box out on Lopez that resulted in a put back dunk.  Super savvy move by Lopez and it happens.  He also left his feet on a pump fake from Portis once resulting in a easy 8 footer over I.T, once again it happens and normally he is very good at not doing this.  There were truly very few rebounding opportunities on the defensive end and the ones he did have are excusable why he did not get them.  Every 2nd chance point scored by Chicago while K.O. was on the floor (10) was with K.O. defending the original shooter save for the Lopez spin move. 

He had 2 steals, 3 blocks, 3 Off. Reb., 5 deflections and 13 contested shots in just 23 minutes, all at or near team highs...

Amazingly you were spot on because I posted these videos in my GIF thread , check it out, but it seems you have already seen this with your own viewing.

[Ilikesports17]

I'm surprised OP hasn't brought up Payton yet.

  I don't have to. Nobody else has, and we all know why.

no one has brought up Payton because he isnt in the playoffs and has no relevance to this discussion.

Of course, but if the discussion were about who has been a better player, Payton wins that discussion, especially after being the one who actually improved not regressed. Also given that he has been on a trash team , not a team with a superior coach and superior star.

Payton doesnt win that discussion. That discussion goes nowhere. We have had it countless times and plenty of completely reasonable people take Smart all day long.

That will continue to be the case until one of these guys actually distances themselves from the other.

and no, putting up 13/7/5 for the 5th worst team in the league doesnt count as distancing yourself.

now, if you think Marcus Smart having one mediocre playoff game (and he was indeed dissapointing last night) changes that debate then I think thats a bit ridiculous. Especially because he hit 2 big threes, did a solid job when asked to gaurd Butler and drew a few offensive fouls if my memory serves.

He needs to be better, but its not like he laid an egg out there. Plus, if we are gonna start putting a ton of stock into performances in the playoffs, the Smart vs. Payton discussion gets real easy.

Payton has yet to play in a single meaningful game over the course of his career.

[celtics2030]

I'm surprised OP hasn't brought up Payton yet.

  I don't have to. Nobody else has, and we all know why.

no one has brought up Payton because he isnt in the playoffs and has no relevance to this discussion.

Of course, but if the discussion were about who has been a better player, Payton wins that discussion, especially after being the one who actually improved not regressed. Also given that he has been on a trash team , not a team with a superior coach and superior star.

Payton doesnt win that discussion. That discussion goes nowhere. We have had it countless times and plenty of completely reasonable people take Smart all day long.

That will continue to be the case until one of these guys actually distances themselves from the other.

and no, putting up 13/7/5 for the 5th worst team in the league doesnt count as distancing yourself.

Who are reasonable people to you ? Celtic fans? LOL

Elfrid Payton eats Smart up in almost every category, which includes win shares.

Smart has never come close to putting up the numbers Elfrid put up in the 2nd half this year.

Ridiculous numbers which include 4 triple doubles.

You lose this conversation over and over, because when numbers mattered they were used in Smart's case

now they no longer can be used because Smart's number's are complete trash in terms of offensive arsenal aside from his passing ability, which Elfrid is an elite player in that spectrum.

Payton had 15 assists 9 rebounds and 12 points against the Celtics , what did Smart do?

Yea,

Why has one guy increased his FG percentage to 47 percent while the other continues to lower it?

You know why ? Because like I said before one of them is an actually skilled offensive player who can get to the rim and finish, but of course ignore this and keep telling me you are right with literally 0 facts to back the points you don't even make lol.


The only excuse you have is that Payton has not played a single meaningful game. Which is pretty desperate since his team and organization sucks compared to where Smart is at.
take the green goggles off your head brother.


Do me a favor and look at the last 3 months of the season

look at the assists, the averages the shooting...

The guy was grabbing down 10+ rebounds 4 out of every 6 games.... Nevermind his insane assists numbers. His FG % was always 50%.

Remarkable numbers


Smart cannot even touch him in terms of offensive capability which has been my point all along......

Not that Smart sucks, but that he is offensively challenged as to which Elfrid is a student of the game who even at his young age is a player who plays the way every point guard should, to get his teammates opportunities. Which is why I love his style of play , because it is a throwback to the Stocktons, Chris Paul , Steve Nash, and for a player to do it at such a young age is amazing. He just needs players around him much like Rondo had. Nobody is saying this guy is a superstar offensive monster, but he is a very good point guard.

[celtics2030]

I'm surprised OP hasn't brought up Payton yet.

  I don't have to. Nobody else has, and we all know why.

no one has brought up Payton because he isnt in the playoffs and has no relevance to this discussion.

Of course, but if the discussion were about who has been a better player, Payton wins that discussion, especially after being the one who actually improved not regressed. Also given that he has been on a trash team , not a team with a superior coach and superior star.

Payton doesnt win that discussion. That discussion goes nowhere. We have had it countless times and plenty of completely reasonable people take Smart all day long.

That will continue to be the case until one of these guys actually distances themselves from the other.

and no, putting up 13/7/5 for the 5th worst team in the league doesnt count as distancing yourself.

now, if you think Marcus Smart having one mediocre playoff game (and he was indeed dissapointing last night) changes that debate then I think thats a bit ridiculous. Especially because he hit 2 big threes, did a solid job when asked to gaurd Butler and drew a few offensive fouls if my memory serves.

He needs to be better, but its not like he laid an egg out there. Plus, if we are gonna start putting a ton of stock into performances in the playoffs, the Smart vs. Payton discussion gets real easy.

Payton has yet to play in a single meaningful game over the course of his career.

2 big threes lol.

I mean see this is where we are with Smart. 2 big threes lol.

I love Smart but the guy has to become a better scorer or else is he is just a bench role player.

[celtics2030]

 I don't even care anymore. WE need a win tonight.

[Eddie20]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

[Ilikesports17]

I'm surprised OP hasn't brought up Payton yet.

  I don't have to. Nobody else has, and we all know why.

no one has brought up Payton because he isnt in the playoffs and has no relevance to this discussion.

Of course, but if the discussion were about who has been a better player, Payton wins that discussion, especially after being the one who actually improved not regressed. Also given that he has been on a trash team , not a team with a superior coach and superior star.

Payton doesnt win that discussion. That discussion goes nowhere. We have had it countless times and plenty of completely reasonable people take Smart all day long.

That will continue to be the case until one of these guys actually distances themselves from the other.

and no, putting up 13/7/5 for the 5th worst team in the league doesnt count as distancing yourself.

now, if you think Marcus Smart having one mediocre playoff game (and he was indeed dissapointing last night) changes that debate then I think thats a bit ridiculous. Especially because he hit 2 big threes, did a solid job when asked to gaurd Butler and drew a few offensive fouls if my memory serves.

He needs to be better, but its not like he laid an egg out there. Plus, if we are gonna start putting a ton of stock into performances in the playoffs, the Smart vs. Payton discussion gets real easy.

Payton has yet to play in a single meaningful game over the course of his career.

2 big threes lol.

I mean see this is where we are with Smart. 2 big threes lol.

I love Smart but the guy has to become a better scorer or else is he is just a bench role player.

He was 5th in minutes on our 53 win team. He already is a very high level role-player who should get some votes for 6moty and could well end up on an all-defense team.

I dont understand why 2 big threes in as lol. Im not saying Smart did well yesterday. I thought he was mediocre, but he did contribute on some level and part of that was through hitting 2 important threes. He missed some big ones too.

Im not too too interested in comparing the stats of these players over the last three months of the season while one player played for a tanking Orlando Magic team, second half stats for trash teams are close to useless.

I dont need to look at those stats to know Payton is the more talented scorer. Payton can finish inside and has the quickness and explosion to get easy shots off at the basket. Marcus lacks these important skills. Payton is a better passer, but not by a huge margin. Smart still averaged 4.5 assists despite being far from the teams primary ball handler.

I think Payton is a better offensive player by a decent margin.

I think Marcus is a better defensive player by a decent margin.

I think Marcus has shown a tendency to make big plays in the clutch.

I think they are very close and the kicker is that Smart's skillset better translates as a role-player and Payton's as a primary ballhandler.

Problem is, in my mind, neither will ever be good enough to be the primary ballhandler for a contending team, thus the guy who can provide more value as a secondary ball handler and role player is more valuable. That guy is Marcus Smart because he is:
a) a better and more versatile defender
b) a (shockingly) better floor spacer
c) a stud intangibles grit-n-grind guy with a history of clutch plays

you can act like its not a debate, but it is one until Elfrid payton does something more than put up nice (but by no means great) numbers for a trash team.

[celtics2030]

I'm surprised OP hasn't brought up Payton yet.

  I don't have to. Nobody else has, and we all know why.

no one has brought up Payton because he isnt in the playoffs and has no relevance to this discussion.

Of course, but if the discussion were about who has been a better player, Payton wins that discussion, especially after being the one who actually improved not regressed. Also given that he has been on a trash team , not a team with a superior coach and superior star.

Payton doesnt win that discussion. That discussion goes nowhere. We have had it countless times and plenty of completely reasonable people take Smart all day long.

That will continue to be the case until one of these guys actually distances themselves from the other.

and no, putting up 13/7/5 for the 5th worst team in the league doesnt count as distancing yourself.

now, if you think Marcus Smart having one mediocre playoff game (and he was indeed dissapointing last night) changes that debate then I think thats a bit ridiculous. Especially because he hit 2 big threes, did a solid job when asked to gaurd Butler and drew a few offensive fouls if my memory serves.

He needs to be better, but its not like he laid an egg out there. Plus, if we are gonna start putting a ton of stock into performances in the playoffs, the Smart vs. Payton discussion gets real easy.

Payton has yet to play in a single meaningful game over the course of his career.

2 big threes lol.

I mean see this is where we are with Smart. 2 big threes lol.

I love Smart but the guy has to become a better scorer or else is he is just a bench role player.

He was 5th in minutes on our 53 win team. He already is a very high level role-player who should get some votes for 6moty and could well end up on an all-defense team.

I dont understand why 2 big threes in as lol. Im not saying Smart did well yesterday. I thought he was mediocre, but he did contribute on some level and part of that was through hitting 2 important threes. He missed some big ones too.

Im not too too interested in comparing the stats of these players over the last three months of the season while one player played for a tanking Orlando Magic team, second half stats for trash teams are close to useless.

I dont need to look at those stats to know Payton is the more talented scorer. Payton can finish inside and has the quickness and explosion to get easy shots off at the basket. Marcus lacks these important skills. Payton is a better passer, but not by a huge margin. Smart still averaged 4.5 assists despite being far from the teams primary ball handler.

I think Payton is a better offensive player by a decent margin.

I think Marcus is a better defensive player by a decent margin.

I think Marcus has shown a tendency to make big plays in the clutch.

I think they are very close and the kicker is that Smart's skillset better translates as a role-player and Payton's as a primary ballhandler.

Problem is, in my mind, neither will ever be good enough to be the primary ballhandler for a contending team, thus the guy who can provide more value as a secondary ball handler and role player is more valuable. That guy is Marcus Smart because he is:
a) a better and more versatile defender
b) a (shockingly) better floor spacer
c) a stud intangibles grit-n-grind guy with a history of clutch plays

you can act like its not a debate, but it is one until Elfrid payton does something more than put up nice (but by no means great) numbers for a trash team.

No question in my mind he is the better passer because he is dangerous in everyway possible , he can drive, he can run the break , I'm telling you right now he is an amazing point guard, passing wise he is already elite. All those numbers are indicative of how he looks for the simple play to set up his teammates who are mostly trash.

The problem is he can't shoot from the outside, which hinders his game, but other than that he can do a lot.

As of this moment he would need a decent team around him to be special, much like Rondo, but he doesn't have that, and in turn people will crap on him because he doesn't throw up 25 shots a game and get 45 points. It's not him, he wants to be a team player, and that is what I like about him since day 1. Smart is the same way , but my entire point is that Marcus Smart lacks whatever tools needed to become a player that can do offensive things on the court. Look at the splits , it gets even more ugly......Smart is almost doubled on drives to the basket, and he is so bad from close it's not even funny. The guy just isn't capable with his skillset, maybe its his body , or maybe the lack of athleticism.

Value wise, yea they both don't seem to out due one another, but that is because the value to the team. Smart has big value on this team, which is why he gets 30 minutes a game.

But his offense sucks. He has shown good poise at PG, but he is not something special. He is solid. Elfrid passing game is incredible.

[Eddie20]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

[Ilikesports17]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

stats do lie.

they absolutely do.

especially when you are using them to compare a player who has had this said about him countless times.
"sometimes those go in a box score, sometimes they don't. But he does them every game. That's why I don't get too caught up in the box score stuff with him. He impacts winning"-Brad Stevens
"That's what Marcus Smart does," Thomas said in a postgame interview with Comcast SportsNet. "That's the definition of what he does. I don't know how he gets those rebounds, how he gets those loose balls. But he always finds a way.""-Isaiah Thomas
 and a guy who is playing for a bottom feeder.

TJ Mcconnell put up more apg with less turnovers in fewer mpg than Elfrid Payton on a similarly horrible team. Are those numbers lying? you bet they are.

[celtics2030]

Payton lost his job to Augustin for a bit and his defense, which was once heralded, has been bad since his rookie year.

In his rookie season, Payton showed a lot of promise defensively. He pressured ball handlers, forced turnovers and routinely competed well against the deepest spot in the league nightly. To top it off, that defensive potential shined through while playing in a horrendous scheme under Jacque Vaughn.

Fast Forward to the 2016 season, Payton’s defense fell off a cliff.

Payton was routinely blown up by screens that left the defense in shambles. The pressure that Payton placed on ball handlers became far too rare of a sight and Payton was routinely beaten by opposing point guards. His defensive win shares dropped from 2.3 to 1.7 and his defensive box plus-minus dipped from 0.8 to -0.5. Quite literally, Payton went from a positive defensive impact to a negative one.

One focus for Payton needs to be adding some more strength to his frame. Payton has certainly added some strength since entering the NBA, but he is still very wiry. He needs to become thicker so he can fight through screens better and put up more resistance against stronger guards like John Wall and Russell Westbrook.

True , and it was a problem in 2017 portion as well, he was very lazy , and the style of play they changed did not help. His defense was pretty bad no doubt.

The team though stinks. They need an overhaul/

So then you have two players, both of similar age, both who have offensively flawed games (Payton's shot is broken, Smart's is not). One shoots free throws at a high percentage (Smart 81.2 this year), the other does not (Payton career is 61.1). One has the ability to cover players 1-4, while you admittedly state that the other's defense has been pretty bad. So removing raw numbers, where putting up these numbers on a bad team is hardly an accomplishment, why is it exactly that you have Payton ahead of Smart?

If Smart shot is not broken ? What is it? Maybe his driving ability is broken lol. All parts of his offense is broken besides his passing.

Why do I have Elfrid in front? Easy. Skill set.

One is driven by effort hustle and big plays.

One guy has the potential and has the skills. Stats do not lie. Getting 3 triple doubles in 5 games is not a mistake. Grabbing 10+ rebounds in 4 out of 5 games is not lucky.

Scoring double digits in 30 out of last 35 is not bogus.

The guy average 9 rebounds and 9 assists at one point for an entire month.

Like I said the talent level is on Elfrid's side.

The numbers prove it.

Elfrid FG % was nearly 50% and 51% for nearly 3 months, his FG% was 47 percent this year. Why ? because he can score in the way he can score.

Smart ? You tell me how his shot isn't broken lol.

JOKES!

stats do lie.

they absolutely do.

especially when you are using them to compare a player who has had this said about him countless times.
"sometimes those go in a box score, sometimes they don't. But he does them every game. That's why I don't get too caught up in the box score stuff with him. He impacts winning"-Brad Stevens
"That's what Marcus Smart does," Thomas said in a postgame interview with Comcast SportsNet. "That's the definition of what he does. I don't know how he gets those rebounds, how he gets those loose balls. But he always finds a way.""-Isaiah Thomas
 and a guy who is playing for a bottom feeder.

TJ Mcconnell put up more apg with less turnovers in fewer mpg than Elfrid Payton on a similarly horrible team. Are those numbers lying? you bet they are.

LOL TJ Mconnel.

TJ is nowhere as dynamic as Payton.

TJ also has better stats than Marcus.

I really don't know who is better offensively , TJ might get the nod over Marcus lol.

Which is why you are missing the point.

Marcus is historically terrible as an offensive player. I mean horrible.


Payton is way better than Mcconnel , I laugh that you had to bring him in to the convo. Even for the reason of trying to prove that stats lie.


Just admit that Marcus Smart's reason for playing time is because he hustles and plays hard on defense.