Author Topic: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice  (Read 12339 times)

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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2017, 10:47:47 AM »

Offline Androslav

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IMO If you would vote for RW it basicaly means you agree that Kobe should have 3/4 MVP years due to his hero ball/teamate alienization. I don't share that assesment.
Simiarities: playstyle, heroball, 1st round bounce as a lone star. BTW the best teamate Kobe got in the free agency, after he banished Shaq (insert Durant if needed), was a past prime Ron Artest. That is in L.A. the free agent Mecca. Sure some trades worked, Gasol trade gave them 2 chips. On the other hand Howard ran away as fast as could. My explanation is that heroball playstyle works like that cream you put on your skin when you don't want mosquitos to bite you.
My prognosis - not a single meaningfull free agent will go to OKC to play with the "MVP" - and the is pretty weak superstar trait. Remains to be seen, but thats my take.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »

Offline wayupnorth

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
then you haven't been paying attention. The Thunder are awful when Westbrook isnt on the floor. Lebron is the only guy in the league with better on Court vs off Court splits than Westbrook this season.  The Rockets are basically the same team when Harden isn't in the game (they are slightly worse). In other words Harden adds almost no value to his team.

You don't really belive that, do you?

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2017, 11:45:04 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Westbrook should be the MVP after averaging a triple double.  Nuff said.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2017, 11:46:50 AM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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Westbrook should be the MVP after averaging a triple double.  Nuff said.


Then you would agree Oscar should have won it when he averaged that, but came in 3rd?

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2017, 11:59:07 AM »

Online Donoghus

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Westbrook should be the MVP after averaging a triple double.  Nuff said.


Then you would agree Oscar should have won it when he averaged that, but came in 3rd?

What happened 50+ years ago should be relevant & apply to this season because....?


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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2017, 12:00:06 PM »

Offline Moranis

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
then you haven't been paying attention. The Thunder are awful when Westbrook isnt on the floor. Lebron is the only guy in the league with better on Court vs off Court splits than Westbrook this season.  The Rockets are basically the same team when Harden isn't in the game (they are slightly worse). In other words Harden adds almost no value to his team.

You don't really belive that, do you?
the on off Court numbers show that. Now sure he is on the court a lot more than he is off and if he wasn't there at all I don't think the Rockets could maintain that high level of play all season long but I do think they show just how bad Harden is defensively and that his assists are inflated being surrounded by such great shooters.  The Rockets are a well constructed team for Dantonio's system.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2017, 12:06:00 PM »

Offline JohnBoy65

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Westbrook should be the MVP after averaging a triple double.  Nuff said.


Then you would agree Oscar should have won it when he averaged that, but came in 3rd?

What happened 50+ years ago should be relevant & apply to this season because....?

Because it's the only other time it has ever happened. Also, you could argue that MVP vote was more important because it was the players voting for MVP. The players that year thought stats on a 43 win team weren't as important as the contributions and stats of Bill Russell on a 60 win team.

Which you make the comparison to Harden's 'lesser stat's on a team with more wins.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2017, 12:09:54 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Thing is, people still remember Oscar's triple-double season 50+ years later, and Wilt's 50+ ppg,48+ mpg season the same year. Far fewer people remember Bill Russell's season that year, or that he won the MVP.

To an extent, it doesn't really matter much if Westbrook gets the MVP or not (I think he will, but would vote for Harden personally). There's an MVP every year, but a triple-double average has only happened twice. It's more historic and more memorable, and unless it somehow becomes commonplace fans will be talking about it a lot longer than the 2017 MVP.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2017, 12:19:55 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
then you haven't been paying attention. The Thunder are awful when Westbrook isnt on the floor. Lebron is the only guy in the league with better on Court vs off Court splits than Westbrook this season.  The Rockets are basically the same team when Harden isn't in the game (they are slightly worse). In other words Harden adds almost no value to his team.

Good Lord, Moranis.

I know you're smarter than that.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2017, 12:28:18 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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Swap Westbrook out for LeBron and OKC wins that series comfortably.

He should not be the MVP.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2017, 01:29:32 PM »

Offline johnnygreen

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I'm very surprised that Isaiah Thomas hasn't received much MVP love in this discussion. Has there been anybody better in the fourth quarter in closing out games this season? And he also helped lead the Celtics to the #1 seed in the East. For the regular season, I think he is deserving of being in the top 3 discussion, alongside Westbrook and Harden. Believe me, I'm not trying to be a homer when bringing up IT. The last time I thought a Celtics player deserved to win the MVP was Garnett in 2008, but the voters decided to give Kobe the lifetime achievement MVP award.

As for the debate between Westbrook and Harden, I have to go with Westbrook. The debate for Harden seems to rest on team success versus Westbrook and his team. If that's the case, then shouldn't we also look at the teams offseason changes? I think too many people are overlooking the addition of head coach Mike D'Antoni and the offensive philosophy he brought to that team. I know D'Antoni gets a lot of credit for making Harden the point guard, but Harden was a ball hogging player long before the position change. The only difference seems to be D'Antoni convincing Harden to pass the [dang] ball. On the other hand, OKC simply couldn't recover from the offseason shock of losing a top 3 player in the world, and properly rebuilding the team on the fly. OKC replaced a reliable 28-30 ppg scorer in Durant with Andre Roberson's 6.6 ppg (who may also be the worst free throw shooter I have ever seen). The fact that OKC only won 8 games fewer than last season, seems pretty amazing to me given the circumstances.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2017, 02:17:02 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
then you haven't been paying attention. The Thunder are awful when Westbrook isnt on the floor. Lebron is the only guy in the league with better on Court vs off Court splits than Westbrook this season.  The Rockets are basically the same team when Harden isn't in the game (they are slightly worse). In other words Harden adds almost no value to his team.

Good Lord, Moranis.

I know you're smarter than that.

Meh he has said a bunch of times he would vote for a guy that couldn't get his team the number 1 seed in a very week conference despite leading the league in minutes and playing aside two all stars and a bevy of respect role players. It is obviously not an unbiased take from a guy in Cleveland.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2017, 02:20:03 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Swap Westbrook out for LeBron and OKC wins that series comfortably.

He should not be the MVP.

I wouldn't be so sure. Lebron playing alongside two all stars and a large group of accomplished role players won by 1, 6, 5 and 4 points over a team much worse than the Rockets. He would have needed to play MUCH better to beat the Rockets with Oladipo, Adams and Taj Gibson as his teammates. The second best player is probably Oladipo who may very well be the 5th best player on the Cavs team. Will be interesting to see if they can take it up a notch next series if they play the Raptors. The kind of defensive effort against George and scrubs would not get it done against Lowry, Ibaka and Derozen.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #118 on: April 26, 2017, 02:56:33 PM »

Offline Moranis

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
then you haven't been paying attention. The Thunder are awful when Westbrook isnt on the floor. Lebron is the only guy in the league with better on Court vs off Court splits than Westbrook this season.  The Rockets are basically the same team when Harden isn't in the game (they are slightly worse). In other words Harden adds almost no value to his team.

Good Lord, Moranis.

I know you're smarter than that.
are you suggesting that on Court vs off Court numbers shouldn't be used when discussing ones value to the team.  The reality is Harden is an absolutely atrocious defender.  By far the worst defender of the 4 main mvp candidates and it isn't close.  That is why when he sits the Rockets are only nominally worse but when James,
Leonard, and even Westbrook sit their teams are much worse.  I mean take the Rockets/Thunder series. Over the final 4 games Harden was -3 despite Houston going 3 and 1 and overall outscoring the Thunder by 12.  So Houston was 15 points better with Harden on the bench in the final 4 games of the series and that is with Harden averaging 38 mpg (so only 10 mpg without him in the game).  Game 1 Harden was +22 in 34 minutes of course the rest of the team was +9 in 14 minutes which is still a better performance.

Funny I thought value was measured by how much you mean to your team winning.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #119 on: April 26, 2017, 03:17:57 PM »

Offline Who

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Lou Williams, Eric Gordon and Nene were the difference in that series.

Not Harden vs Westbrook.