Author Topic: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice  (Read 2854 times)

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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2017, 03:21:20 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Rockets are a team led by an MVP caliber player.

The Thunder have an MVP caliber player with a collection of dudes playing beside him.

The distinction there is important, and we're seeing that in this series.

The Rockets have more offensive talent than the Thunder, but I do not believe that the Thunder are getting the most that they can from the offensive talent on their roster.

Of course, it's too late to change that now. You spend the regular season practicing the kinds of sets you want to run in the playoffs. The Thunder spent the regular season helping Westbrook get his instead of figuring out how to maximize guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Sabonis, etc.
Kanter is so bad defensively he has barely played in the series and Oladipo is 1 of 13 from three and 4 of 13 from two.  Those are the only two remotely credible offensive players for OKC.

Kanter got time against GSW last year, so I don't believe he's necessarily unplayable as long as his production while he's out there is enough to justify his presence on the floor.

As for Oladipo, it's not a surprise he's struggling.  He's never allowed an opportunity to get in rhythm.  He hasn't been given an opportunity pretty much all year.

I don't think you can point to the lack of production of Westbrook's teammates right now as proof that he doesn't have offensive help.  Building a balanced offense is something you have to do from the beginning of the year.  You can't just turn to your teammates who haven't gotten touches all season long and say, "Things are tough now, better start scoring buckets."
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2017, 04:25:41 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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The Rockets are a team led by an MVP caliber player.

The Thunder have an MVP caliber player with a collection of dudes playing beside him.

The distinction there is important, and we're seeing that in this series.

The Rockets have more offensive talent than the Thunder, but I do not believe that the Thunder are getting the most that they can from the offensive talent on their roster.

Of course, it's too late to change that now. You spend the regular season practicing the kinds of sets you want to run in the playoffs. The Thunder spent the regular season helping Westbrook get his instead of figuring out how to maximize guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Sabonis, etc.
Kanter is so bad defensively he has barely played in the series and Oladipo is 1 of 13 from three and 4 of 13 from two.  Those are the only two remotely credible offensive players for OKC.

Kanter got time against GSW last year, so I don't believe he's necessarily unplayable as long as his production while he's out there is enough to justify his presence on the floor.

As for Oladipo, it's not a surprise he's struggling.  He's never allowed an opportunity to get in rhythm.  He hasn't been given an opportunity pretty much all year.

I don't think you can point to the lack of production of Westbrook's teammates right now as proof that he doesn't have offensive help.  Building a balanced offense is something you have to do from the beginning of the year.  You can't just turn to your teammates who haven't gotten touches all season long and say, "Things are tough now, better start scoring buckets."

Great, great post.

I talk to so many people who say that Russ's teammates suck, and they never listen when I try and explain to them that Westbrooks style is a big part of the reason everyone else sucks....they get no opportunities to do anything but at and around and wait to see what russ does.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2017, 06:17:57 PM »

Offline Who

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It is hard to have good ball movement when you have no passers on your team.

OKC's big man passing is lousy. Kanter is a black hole. Adams is below average / barely adequate. Sabonis is the only plus passer on their team. Taj Gibson is a below average passer who only joined midseason. Jerami Grant is another non-passer. None of them are good ball-handlers.

Then their wing play. Andre Roberson is one of the worst offensive wings starting in the league who is lacking as a scorer, shooter, passer and ball-handler. Morrow is strictly a spot up shooter with limited handles / passing. Ditto for McDermott who only joined midseason. Of their wings, only Oladipo is the only one with plus skills as ball-handler and passer. And Oladipo while talented is a bad decision maker who frequently makes mistakes off the dribble in terms of shot-selection, over-dribbling and passing decisions.


How can you expect to have a team based on ball movement when so few of your players are below average passers and ball-handlers?

You can't.

It is not a Westbrook problem. It is a personnel problem. It is a badly built team that the GM is responsible for. Not Westbrook.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2017, 07:12:29 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The Rockets are a team led by an MVP caliber player.

The Thunder have an MVP caliber player with a collection of dudes playing beside him.

The distinction there is important, and we're seeing that in this series.

The Rockets have more offensive talent than the Thunder, but I do not believe that the Thunder are getting the most that they can from the offensive talent on their roster.

Of course, it's too late to change that now. You spend the regular season practicing the kinds of sets you want to run in the playoffs. The Thunder spent the regular season helping Westbrook get his instead of figuring out how to maximize guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Sabonis, etc.
Kanter is so bad defensively he has barely played in the series and Oladipo is 1 of 13 from three and 4 of 13 from two.  Those are the only two remotely credible offensive players for OKC.

Kanter got time against GSW last year, so I don't believe he's necessarily unplayable as long as his production while he's out there is enough to justify his presence on the floor.

As for Oladipo, it's not a surprise he's struggling.  He's never allowed an opportunity to get in rhythm.  He hasn't been given an opportunity pretty much all year.

I don't think you can point to the lack of production of Westbrook's teammates right now as proof that he doesn't have offensive help.  Building a balanced offense is something you have to do from the beginning of the year.  You can't just turn to your teammates who haven't gotten touches all season long and say, "Things are tough now, better start scoring buckets."
You can say whatever you want about Kanter, but Donovan was shown telling his assistants he can't play Kanter and Kanter has barely played in the Houston series (played less than 8 minutes last night despite the team needing his offense).  Kanter is the 2nd best offensive player on OKC and he can't even get in the game.

Oladipo had by far the most efficient season of his career during the regular season.  Set career highs in both two point and three point shooting by wide margins.  He averaged 13.9 shots during the regular season, he is averaging 13 in the playoffs and is shooting 19.2%.

No other player on the Thunder is an above average offensive player.  Adams is ok on the block as is Gibson, but they aren't guys that can create their own shot or score high volumes.  Without Kanter on the bench, the bench is worthless offensively and as we saw in the 7 minutes Westbrook didn't play last night, the entire team is lost without him. 
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2017, 09:49:43 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game).

That's because in those 7 minutes the Rockets went ballistic from the field including the 3 point line.

And considering that Russ is an awful defensive player assigning credit to him for statistical noise in the shooting samples seem absurd. What I do know though, is that he took 18 of the Thunders 30 FGA in the 4th, and shot them out of the game laying bricks like a mason.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2017, 08:40:20 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game).

That's because in those 7 minutes the Rockets went ballistic from the field including the 3 point line.

And considering that Russ is an awful defensive player assigning credit to him for statistical noise in the shooting samples seem absurd. What I do know though, is that he took 18 of the Thunders 30 FGA in the 4th, and shot them out of the game laying bricks like a mason.
and what did the rest of the Thunder shoot in that quarter? 
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2017, 11:32:05 AM »

Offline bdm860

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According to the guys over at The Dream Shake (Rockets SB Nation site), Westbrook will win MVP.


Quote
Our crowd-sourcing and canvassing has found 62 of the NBA’s 100 first place votes for 2017 MVP. There was no announced list, so we identified the votes and that a voter had a ballot using Twitter, interviews, podcasts, articles and TV broadcasts.

And Westbrook will edge Harden.

And right now we estimate the MVP race, after 62 first place votes, to be at:

Russell Westbrook: 522

James Harden: 456

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2017, 12:44:53 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'd still have Lebron James as my MVP bUT really have no issue with Westbrook winning
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2017, 03:54:31 AM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game).

That's because in those 7 minutes the Rockets went ballistic from the field including the 3 point line.

And considering that Russ is an awful defensive player assigning credit to him for statistical noise in the shooting samples seem absurd. What I do know though, is that he took 18 of the Thunders 30 FGA in the 4th, and shot them out of the game laying bricks like a mason.
and what did the rest of the Thunder shoot in that quarter?

 ::)

They built that lead because of bad Rockets shooting and lost it for the same reason. Once Russ came back in he bricked them out of the game.

It's like, Russ fans literally won't look at the stats or the tape. The dude hogs the ball, and chucks awful shots. Statistically he scores inefficiently. And guess what? His team not knowing what to do without him has a lot to do with him using 5000% of their possessions when they are in the game.

I'm not even sure why Billy Donovan bothered to put in offensive or defensive systems. The entire team exists to pad his stats because he got his feelings hurt when the 2nd best player in the NBA left because of his hero ball BS.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2017, 04:01:28 AM »

Online ederson

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Well i don"t see stats here too ....
He is not efficient .. Known fact.

Are the rest efficient ? And if they are what part of theit made shots came from Westbrook's assists?


Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2017, 04:49:03 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game).

That's because in those 7 minutes the Rockets went ballistic from the field including the 3 point line.

And considering that Russ is an awful defensive player assigning credit to him for statistical noise in the shooting samples seem absurd. What I do know though, is that he took 18 of the Thunders 30 FGA in the 4th, and shot them out of the game laying bricks like a mason.
and what did the rest of the Thunder shoot in that quarter?

 ::)

They built that lead because of bad Rockets shooting and lost it for the same reason. Once Russ came back in he bricked them out of the game.

It's like, Russ fans literally won't look at the stats or the tape. The dude hogs the ball, and chucks awful shots. Statistically he scores inefficiently. And guess what? His team not knowing what to do without him has a lot to do with him using 5000% of their possessions when they are in the game.

I'm not even sure why Billy Donovan bothered to put in offensive or defensive systems. The entire team exists to pad his stats because he got his feelings hurt when the 2nd best player in the NBA left because of his hero ball BS.
he played the entire quarter we were discussing. Sure he should take some crap for going 4 of 18 but the rest of the team was 3 for 12 I believe. That is the point I was making.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2017, 05:07:17 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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At this point, I've accepted that Westbrook will win MVP.  He worked very hard this season and did many amazing things on the floor, so I can't say he doesn't deserve it.  I just think there were guys who did more to help their teams win games this season.

I'm going to paraphrase what Zach Lowe said on his podcast with Kevin Arnovitz this week.

Basically, Russ was not playing basketball so much as he was playing Russ-ball each night.  It's a different sport.  Very very impressive, but not the same thing as being a great basketball player, because basketball is a team sport.

What this comes down to is belief in a fundamental element of the sport that we love.

Either you believe that there is a cost to Westbrook dominating the ball and taking a million shots every game, or you don't.  Either you think this sport is about individual brilliance and Westbrook is doing everything he can to help his team, or you believe that part of being a great player is lifting the players around you by involving them in the action. 

I believe that Westbrook's play style has had a negative effect of the development of his teammates, individually and as a unit.  But I can't "prove" it exactly, so I don't expect anybody who doesn't share that basic belief about the game to change to my way of thinking.



Something Kevin Arnovitz said was a pretty valuable point as well:

One way to evaluate the value of players would be to look at the value of their median or most average possession, as opposed to just thinking of their most spectacular plays.

That tends to favor a guy like Kawhi Leonard or Harden, as opposed to Westbrook.  Westbrook has many great plays, but I think what sticks out for people is the absolutely unbelievable force-of-nature plays he makes, as opposed to the ho-hum offensive and defensive possessions that make up the bulk of his time on the floor.  For Westbrook, that's a lot of lackadaisical play on the defense end, and a lot of pull-up mid-range jumpers on the offensive end. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #102 on: Yesterday at 08:16:29 AM »

Online ederson

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Quote
When Westbrook was on the floor (for 39 minutes per game), the Thunder outscored Houston by 4.9

Quote
The Thunder were outscored by 51.3 points per 100 possessions while Westbrook watched from the bench

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/4/26/15431112/russell-westbrook-rockets-thunder-lineups-2017


You may argue that this is not basketball , that he is not the most efficient player , that he is a ballhog , that there are better and more complete players. And you'd be possibly right

But this season he was the player who added the greatest value to his team.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #103 on: Yesterday at 08:32:01 AM »

Offline mgent

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #104 on: Yesterday at 10:41:34 AM »

Offline Moranis

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While I'll agree Westbrook has more value to his team than LeBron or Leonard (despite them being better players) I don't agree he has more value than Harden.

I can't seem to figure out why a couple rebounds makes Westbrook some beast nobody has ever seen before.

I mean, half of this guy's rebounds are just defensive rebounds anybody on his team can get, but instead they clear out and let him have it.

Harden on the other hand is better at making his teammates better, a more efficient high volume score, and led his team to more success than Westbrook.

The only argument I've ever heard for Westbrook has been those arbitrary double digit rebounds.
then you haven't been paying attention. The Thunder are awful when Westbrook isnt on the floor. Lebron is the only guy in the league with better on Court vs off Court splits than Westbrook this season.  The Rockets are basically the same team when Harden isn't in the game (they are slightly worse). In other words Harden adds almost no value to his team.
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