Author Topic: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice  (Read 4451 times)

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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2017, 07:59:52 AM »

Offline Androslav

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There is a reason why no one ever had Westbooks sky-high usage rate.
It is not productive.
Simple as that.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2017, 08:04:10 AM »

Offline moiso

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There is a reason why no one ever had Westbooks sky-high usage rate.
It is not productive.
Simple as that.
This is how how feel.  Loved your Zizic post too, by the way.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2017, 09:05:28 AM »

Offline Moranis

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There is a reason why no one ever had Westbooks sky-high usage rate.
It is not productive.
Simple as that.
Westbrook does not have the highest usage even since they started keeping the stat.  Kobe had the highest.  Westbrook is 2nd.  Both were above 38 and were joined in the 38 club by Michael Jordan.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2017, 09:23:27 AM »

Offline Androslav

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There is a reason why no one ever had Westbooks sky-high usage rate.
It is not productive.
Simple as that.
Westbrook does not have the highest usage even since they started keeping the stat.  Kobe had the highest.  Westbrook is 2nd.  Both were above 38 and were joined in the 38 club by Michael Jordan.

I disagree:
                                  USG%
Jordan       1986/87 - 38,3%
Iverson      2001/02 - 37,8%
Bryant       2005/06 - 38,7%
Westbrook 2016/17 - 41,7%

I am begging to fully understand his "My only friend is Spalding" quote.
So far in 2 playoff games he has (sit down and swallow if you are eating/drinking) - 52%!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 09:29:50 AM by Androslav »

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2017, 09:27:19 AM »

Offline Moranis

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There is a reason why no one ever had Westbooks sky-high usage rate.
It is not productive.
Simple as that.
Westbrook does not have the highest usage even since they started keeping the stat.  Kobe had the highest.  Westbrook is 2nd.  Both were above 38 and were joined in the 38 club by Michael Jordan.

I disagree:
                                  USG%
Jordan       1986/87 - 38,3%
Iverson      2001/02 - 37,8%
Bryant       2005/06 - 38,7%
Westbrook 2016/17 - 41,7%
you are right, the list I was looking at didn't have this year in it.  It had Westbrook's 14/15 season which is now 3rd. 
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2017, 09:49:15 AM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2017, 10:18:16 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game). 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2017, 10:50:09 AM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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I wonder if you can get a triple double in golf.

If you can I'm sure Westbrook will in the coming weeks.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2017, 11:39:23 AM »

Offline bdm860

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game).

I really like the +/- stat, but I think you're being too general with it right now, and that's one of the limitations of +/-.

In this game, the +/- for Harden/Westbrook is being driven by the good 1st quarter for Westbrook and a bad one for Harden as Westbrook was +12 in the 1st, while Harden was -9.  From the 2nd through 4th quarter though, Harden was +11 while Westbrook was -1.  Going into the 4th, OKC was up 3 and Westbrook played the entire 4th but was -7, while Harden was +3 (in about 7 mins).

Sure on average, it looks like OKC was gaining a point every 3.7 minutes Westbrook was on the floor, but then you got to explain how OKC was up going into the 4th and how Westbrook played the entire 4th but the team still lost, because it sounds like they should have added to their lead.  That per minute production doesn't actually translate that well here.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/plus-minus/201704190HOU.html



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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2017, 12:26:51 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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The Rockets are a team led by an MVP caliber player.

The Thunder have an MVP caliber player with a collection of dudes playing beside him.

The distinction there is important, and we're seeing that in this series.

The Rockets have more offensive talent than the Thunder, but I do not believe that the Thunder are getting the most that they can from the offensive talent on their roster.

Of course, it's too late to change that now. You spend the regular season practicing the kinds of sets you want to run in the playoffs. The Thunder spent the regular season helping Westbrook get his instead of figuring out how to maximize guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Sabonis, etc.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2017, 12:45:23 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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There is a reason why no one ever had Westbooks sky-high usage rate.
It is not productive.
Simple as that.

This is exactly what I've been saying. It leads to choppy team offense. The Thunder do not move the ball well at all and have one of the worst ast% in the league.

And these aren't minor differences we're talking about here. That Warriors team assists on 70.5% of its baskets. OKC is only at 53.2%

Thunder assist% ranking the last few years:

OKC 29th/24th/27th

compare that to the contenders:

Warriors 2nd/1st/1st
Spurs 6th/7th/9th
Cavs 17th/17th/20th

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2017, 12:53:19 PM »

Offline kraidstar

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A lot of the all-time usage rate leaders by season were relatively inefficient stars like Kobe, T-mac, Stackhouse, Cousins, Iverson, Melo, and Jermaine-freaking-O'neal.

All good players, but that style is a throwback to David Stern's late 1990's 1-on-1 basketball.

It won't work now, as thankfully the league (and the rules and officiating) have shifted away from that.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2017, 01:59:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The Rockets are a team led by an MVP caliber player.

The Thunder have an MVP caliber player with a collection of dudes playing beside him.

The distinction there is important, and we're seeing that in this series.

The Rockets have more offensive talent than the Thunder, but I do not believe that the Thunder are getting the most that they can from the offensive talent on their roster.

Of course, it's too late to change that now. You spend the regular season practicing the kinds of sets you want to run in the playoffs. The Thunder spent the regular season helping Westbrook get his instead of figuring out how to maximize guys like Oladipo, Kanter, Adams, Sabonis, etc.
Kanter is so bad defensively he has barely played in the series and Oladipo is 1 of 13 from three and 4 of 13 from two.  Those are the only two remotely credible offensive players for OKC. 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2017, 02:02:57 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

The guy who didn't miss 26 field goals en route to a loss.
and yet he was the guy whose team was better than the other team by 11 when he was on the floor.  Put it this way, Westbrook played 41 minutes and the Thunder were +11, in the 7 minutes he was on the bench the Thunder were -15.  In other words, the Thunder were losing more than 2 points per minute when Westbrook was resting and were gaining a point ever 3.7 minutes or so.  The Rockets on the other hand were +3 in Harden's 37 minutes and +1 in the other 11 minutes, which means they were actually increasing their lead at a better pace when Harden wasn't in the game (1 point per 11 minutes when he was on the bench, and only 1 point per every 12.3 minutes when he was in the game).

I really like the +/- stat, but I think you're being too general with it right now, and that's one of the limitations of +/-.

In this game, the +/- for Harden/Westbrook is being driven by the good 1st quarter for Westbrook and a bad one for Harden as Westbrook was +12 in the 1st, while Harden was -9.  From the 2nd through 4th quarter though, Harden was +11 while Westbrook was -1.  Going into the 4th, OKC was up 3 and Westbrook played the entire 4th but was -7, while Harden was +3 (in about 7 mins).

Sure on average, it looks like OKC was gaining a point every 3.7 minutes Westbrook was on the floor, but then you got to explain how OKC was up going into the 4th and how Westbrook played the entire 4th but the team still lost, because it sounds like they should have added to their lead.  That per minute production doesn't actually translate that well here.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/plus-minus/201704190HOU.html
this is a fair point and there is no question Westbrook had a bad 4th quarter but you can't just disregard the first 3 quarters either. 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2017, 02:05:45 PM »

Offline triboy16f

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Harden is the MVP

RW is such a hog... stat padder

Just watch what is going on with rockets vs okc

Harden elevates the Rockets...RW elevates himself
Westbrook was +11 last night. Harden was +3. Who was more valuable?

Harden...bc Rockets won

And he didnt miss 20 plus shots