Author Topic: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice  (Read 4050 times)

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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2017, 02:38:00 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Who is the Thunder's best player in WB's absence? Oladipo? Taj Gibson?

The Thunder are a poorly constructed team.


Answer: Steven Adams


Are they "poorly constructed"?  Or are they actually quite well constructed?

I would argue they are built pretty much in an ideal fashion to play the way they've played this year, which is to let Westbrook do whatever he wants while the players around him defend their butts off and rebound all the misses.

Steven Adams - by point of reference, averages 11 points and 7 rebounds per game. He is about as good as Greg Monroe. And neither Adams nor Monroe are leading anyone to the playoffs.

I think you can make the argument that they were constructed for his benefit - but were they? Seems like they are lacking a small forward (KNOW WHAT I MEAN?). After Durant left, they signed Enes Kanter. Not exactly a comparable replacement. Did the Taj Gibson trade really put them over the top [?].

I think WB has done his best with the flotsam that was left after Durant's departure.

That said - accepting your premise as true. ...isn't it also true that no player is more valuable to his team than WB is to the Thunder? I don't give an F about the triple double season. I just think he is irreplaceable, as far as what he brings to their team. K. Leonard is awesome, no doubt. ...but he's playing with Danny Green, Aldridge, Gasol, Parker, Ginobli - a core of professionals who make his life easier.

While there is no doubt that Nazr Mohammed is a professional - I don't think he has the same skill set he had, oh, I don't know 2005/2006 when he was playing for the Spurs. Mohammed came into the league in 1998.

I think the only other real contender for MVP is Harden - so answer me this: who would be worse without their respective MVP Candidate: the Rockets? or the Thunder? I think if your answer is the Thunder, WB is the MVP. (Anderson and Trevor Ariza are, 11th and 14th on the present 3Pfg% chart for all players). Eric Gordon, his other teammate - is 4th, tied with IT.
This logic isnt good.

Harden's rockets have won 8 more games than Westbrook's Thunder.

Also, Adams is way better than Monroe. Not even close really.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2017, 02:43:14 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think the only other real contender for MVP is Harden - so answer me this: who would be worse without their respective MVP Candidate: the Rockets? or the Thunder? I think if your answer is the Thunder, WB is the MVP. (Anderson and Trevor Ariza are, 11th and 14th on the present 3Pfg% chart for all players). Eric Gordon, his other teammate - is 4th, tied with IT.


I'm going to modify your question slightly -- which team would be better with an average starter in place of their superstar?

The reason I do that is because I think it makes more sense to think that way.  Most teams are going to look desperately flawed if you just remove their central piece and don't replace him with anybody.  Realistically, the question of how much a star improves his team is not how bad his team would be without him, but rather how bad his team would be if they had somebody entirely ordinary in his place.


With that in mind, here's how I think about it.

A league average starter at the "lead guard / offensive creator" spot is probably somebody like Jrue Holiday or Dennis Schroder.


So, which team would be worse off with Schroder or Holiday in place of their superstar?

Well, I think both teams would be bad, but not horrendous.  Both teams have good coaches and the infrastructure to play a certain way.

Still, I think the Rockets would be worse because without Harden, they would probably be a middle of the road offensive team at best.  Their defense would become a much bigger issue in that case.

My guess is they'd be something like a 30-35 win team.


The Thunder with a Schroder / Holiday type would be toward the bottom of the league offensively, but they might also move the ball more and involve talented players like Oladipo, Kanter, and Adams more heavily.

At the same time, they would likely be at least as good defensively as they are now, which is to say a top 10 defensive squad. 

Given that, I think they'd be in the mix with teams just outside of the playoff picture.  Certainly not a bottom feeder.


Overall, I think the rosters around Westbrook and Harden are comparable; the Thunder are more oriented toward defense and rebounding, while the Rockets are oriented toward shooting and offense.

Given that when you look at both teams with their stars, the Rockets are a considerably more dangerous team than the Thunder, I think the argument is weighted in Harden's favor.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2017, 05:29:24 PM »

Online jaketwice

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https://www.theplayerstribune.com/matt-bonner-nba-mvp-2017-kawhi-leonard/

This article ends in a really odd way, but I think it brings some interesting flavour to the discussion.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2017, 06:34:41 PM »

Online Roy H.

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https://www.theplayerstribune.com/matt-bonner-nba-mvp-2017-kawhi-leonard/

This article ends in a really odd way, but I think it brings some interesting flavour to the discussion.

He's completely right. Why do so many ignore 50% of the game? 60 wins + elite offense + DPOY level defense equals MVP to me.


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DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2017, 07:04:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Matt Moore made a pretty good case for each of the candidates, and ultimately chose Harden.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/even-in-maybe-the-tightest-nba-mvp-race-ever-one-man-does-stand-out-from-the-rest/
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2017, 08:53:45 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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Interesting debate this year. I'd probably go with either Harden or Kawai. It's interesting that, regardless of who wins the MVP, I do think '16-'17 will be the "Westbrook triple double" year, even though it's pretty arbitrary. I mean, it stands out because we have 10 fingers. If we used base 8, it would be different and more common; if we used base 12 it wouldn't have happened yet. And, as many point out, is 18-10-10 really better than 28-9-8? I try not to buy into uniqueness for the sake of uniqueness, similar to why I would be more impressed by a baseball player hitting 2 doubles and 2 homers than by the more neat sounding "hitting for the cycle."

It's always interesting to think about what people consider the definition of MVP. But one interesting exercise is what if you could re-draft everyone who was in the playoffs, with the goal of winning the title. Where would Westbrook go? I'd probably have him 6th, behind Kawai, Lebron, Harden, Curry, Durant. Now, I wouldn't give MVP to Durant due to missed time, but Curry has played 78 games, putting up a 25/4.5/6.6 with 47/41/90 splits in just 33 minutes for a 66 win team, and he isn't even in the MVP conversation!

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2017, 10:21:28 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think it's very likely that Curry is going to spend the next month and a half making us feel a little bit silly for focusing so much on these other dudes without once really talking about how he's still the best player on the best team in the league.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2017, 10:26:29 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Russell Westbrook should be MVP.  Help make it happen by posting support here.

if enough fans support him around the league I thought it might help to keep voters from
flubbing an easy call.

This is the most obvious and clear cut decision in recent MVP history.

No player has averaged a triple double since Oscar Robinson several decades ago.

I don't believe any player in NBA history has ever averaged a triple double while also leading the league in scoring.

That is absolutely ridiculous, the man is not human. 

He's also led a genuinely hot garbage Thunder team to a 6th seed in a very tough Western Conference, and lets be honest - without Westbrook that Thunder team would be fighting for a bottom 5 spot. 

Lebron James plays with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving, and has the most stacked supporting cast in the NBA.  Curry and Durant combine to form the most loaded starting lineup possibly in NBA history.  Kawhi Leonard has LaMarcus Aldridge, Pau Gasol, Tony Parker and one of the top 5 coaches in NBA history. 

James Harden's next best player is Eric Gordon - he's not by any means a superstar, but he's been playing very well this year and has been a key reason for the Rocket's success.  Harden's ability to lead the Rockets to such a good record is still very impressive though.

But Westbrook, his next best player is...Steven Adams?  Or would it be Victor Oladipo? Those guys are nowhere near stars and would probably come off the bench for several NBA teams.  That he has even led this team to the playoffs in mind boggling, and that he's put up the type of numbers he has - as a 6'3" guard - is mind boggling. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 10:31:32 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2017, 10:30:26 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Russell Westbrook should be MVP.  Help make it happen by posting support here.

if enough fans support him around the league I thought it might help to keep voters from
flubbing an easy call.

This is the most obvious and clear cut decision in recent MVP history.

No player has averaged a triple double since Oscar Robinson several decades ago.

I don't believe any player in NBA history has ever averaged a triple double while also leading the league in scoring.

That is absolutely ridiculous, the man is not human. 

He's also led a genuinely hot garbage Thunder team to a 6th seed in a very tough Western Conference, and lets be honest - without Westbrook that Thunder team would be fighting for a bottom 5 spot.


There's no question that it's an impressive statistical feat.

I don't agree that the Thunder are nearly as bad as you say apart from Russ.

Honestly, what Russ has done this season is impressive but I've also found it kind of off-putting, in that I feel like Russ and the franchise as a whole has been focused primarily on helping Russ achieve this milestone, rather than focusing on playing the best basketball and winning as many games as they can.

That they accomplished the project of getting their star to achieve the milestone is really cool, and will rightfully be the thing that this regular season is remembered for, first and foremost.

It doesn't, in my view, make Russ the MVP of the league.  MVP is about more than individual statistical achievement, I think,
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2017, 10:40:18 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Russell Westbrook should be MVP.  Help make it happen by posting support here.

if enough fans support him around the league I thought it might help to keep voters from
flubbing an easy call.

This is the most obvious and clear cut decision in recent MVP history.

No player has averaged a triple double since Oscar Robinson several decades ago.

I don't believe any player in NBA history has ever averaged a triple double while also leading the league in scoring.

That is absolutely ridiculous, the man is not human. 

He's also led a genuinely hot garbage Thunder team to a 6th seed in a very tough Western Conference, and lets be honest - without Westbrook that Thunder team would be fighting for a bottom 5 spot.


There's no question that it's an impressive statistical feat.

I don't agree that the Thunder are nearly as bad as you say apart from Russ.

Honestly, what Russ has done this season is impressive but I've also found it kind of off-putting, in that I feel like Russ and the franchise as a whole has been focused primarily on helping Russ achieve this milestone, rather than focusing on playing the best basketball and winning as many games as they can.

That they accomplished the project of getting their star to achieve the milestone is really cool, and will rightfully be the thing that this regular season is remembered for, first and foremost.

It doesn't, in my view, make Russ the MVP of the league.  MVP is about more than individual statistical achievement, I think,

The Thunder have 47 wins for a 58% win record.  Please tell me how many games you expect the Thunder to win if he was not on the team?  Steven Adams and Victor Oladipo are both fringe starters. Enes Kanter might be the worst defensive player of this decade - scratch that, this generation.  For that team to win 47 games in that western conference is quite an achievement - and how many of those wins have come on the back of Russell Westbrook's heroics?

I've been saying for the past few years that Westbrook, not Durant, was the best player in OKC. Now he's proving that to be true.

Yes, Harden has been amazing.  His production on paper has been almost as impressive as Westbrook's, and his team has won more games.  But everybody on this planet knows that James Harden is an absolutely pathetic defensive player who shows no interest or effort whatsoever on that end of the court. 

Westbrook is not only the NBA scoring leader, and putting up double figures in three categories - he's also been one of the better defensive PG's in the league over the past 5+ seasons.  He's a complete player who does everything, and that deserves to be recognized.

What he has achieved this season is a feat that we may never see again - and if we do, it may not be for another 40 years.  There have been so many guys how have come CLOSE to averaging a triple double while also leading their teams to good records.  Only two players in the history of the NBA have averaged a triple double for a whole season - that has got to say something about how incredible an achievement that is, no matter what the context.
   
This decision should be a no brainer.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2017, 12:10:17 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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As I explained above, I think the Thunder would be a slightly below average kind of team if you replace Westbrook with an average starting caliber point guard.

I think the Rockets would be in a similar range with an average starting caliber point guard in place of Harden.


Yet with their stars, the Rockets are significantly better than the Thunder.


Also, I really don't see what you see with Westbrook's defense.  He seems mostly indifferent to me.  Harden at least tries more frequently.
You値l have to excuse my lengthiness葉he reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2017, 03:25:42 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Harden deserves the award with Kawhi a close 2nd. He already got ripped off once two years ago and it looks like it's going to happen again...and I'm not even a big Harden fan, just think he deserves the award. Fans on ESPN voting have Westbrook at 63% (in a five man race) so not looking good.

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2017, 03:26:26 AM »

Offline Somebody

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As I explained above, I think the Thunder would be a slightly below average kind of team if you replace Westbrook with an average starting caliber point guard.

I think the Rockets would be in a similar range with an average starting caliber point guard in place of Harden.


Yet with their stars, the Rockets are significantly better than the Thunder.


Also, I really don't see what you see with Westbrook's defense.  He seems mostly indifferent to me.  Harden at least tries more frequently.
You are underrating the Rockets' supporting cast too much, they would be a borderline playoff team with an average PG (eg. Jeremy Lin)replacing Harden while the Thunder would be a kings type of team if that happened with Westbrook

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2017, 05:21:47 AM »

Offline ederson

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OKC without RW a slightly below average kind of team ? seriously????

Anyway for me is more important that Harden has around him players that fit his game That is not the case with Westbrook

Re: help prevent a crime: post here to support correct MVP choice
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2017, 06:23:38 AM »

Offline Androslav

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I see a lot of guys trying to adjust their MVP criteria to satisfy the media led RW case. Try to use the WB criteria (amazing season, mediocre supporting cast, probable 1st round bounce) and you will realise that MJ, Grant Hill, T-Mac etc. had those and walked away without the award.
Kawhi is the more complete, more succesful and just plain better player this year. He is in that Nowitzki, MJ, Barkley etc. MVP tier. I don't change my case from year to year, that is silly.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 07:28:53 AM by Androslav »