Will Marcus Smart ever shoot 40%? Part 3

[celtics2030]

I watched both play too and have come up with an opposite opinion. Here is the statistical comparison for this year. It shows that Payton is a slightly better offensive player but overall, Payton isn't even a good offensive player, just better than a bad offensive player like Smart. But Smart is world's better as a defensive player. Smart will most likely be a multiple time NBA All-Defense member in his career. Payton will never make another All NBA team after his rookie recognition. Add that to your own admission that Smart is more versatile defensively, has more tenacity, more hustle and IMO more leadership and clutchness and it leads me to believe Smart has more talent and is a better all around basketball player. His basketball talent just happens to be on the defensive end, not offensive.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Marcus+Smart&player_id1_select=Marcus+Smart&y1=2017&player_id1=smartma01&player_id2_hint=Elfrid+Payton&player_id2_select=Elfrid+Payton&y2=2017&player_id2=paytoel01

Thats bafoonery, one guy cant even shoot 35% from the field.....

Elfrid Payton mind you just got his 5th triple double of the season with 20, 12, and 11

he had 15 assists last night and one rbeound shy of another triple double

it's not even close. Marcus is putrid as an offensive player.

You are grasping at straws now. He will not always be an elite player no defense, heneeds to learn offense much like Bradley , but I don't see it, his skill level is below par.

You are lying if you watch them both and cannot tell the difference on offense, one is a real point guard and one is an effort point guard.

At least Elfrid can get to the rim and finish anytime he wants.

[nickagneta]

I watched both play too and have come up with an opposite opinion. Here is the statistical comparison for this year. It shows that Payton is a slightly better offensive player but overall, Payton isn't even a good offensive player, just better than a bad offensive player like Smart. But Smart is world's better as a defensive player. Smart will most likely be a multiple time NBA All-Defense member in his career. Payton will never make another All NBA team after his rookie recognition. Add that to your own admission that Smart is more versatile defensively, has more tenacity, more hustle and IMO more leadership and clutchness and it leads me to believe Smart has more talent and is a better all around basketball player. His basketball talent just happens to be on the defensive end, not offensive.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Marcus+Smart&player_id1_select=Marcus+Smart&y1=2017&player_id1=smartma01&player_id2_hint=Elfrid+Payton&player_id2_select=Elfrid+Payton&y2=2017&player_id2=paytoel01

Thats bafoonery, one guy cant even shoot 35% from the field.....

Elfrid Payton mind you just got his 5th triple double of the season with 20, 12, and 11

he had 15 assists last night and one rbeound shy of another triple double

it's not even close. Marcus is putrid as an offensive player.

You are grasping at straws now. He will not always be an elite player no defense, heneeds to learn offense much like Bradley , but I don't see it, his skill level is below par.

You are lying if you watch them both and cannot tell the difference on offense, one is a real point guard and one is an effort point guard.

At least Elfrid can get to the rim and finish anytime he wants.

You know, no need for harsh words like buffoonery or questioning my ability to judge talent. People can see things differently. I happen to put a lot more stock in an overall game and ability to effect the game oconversation.I also belueve that part of talent is leadership and ability to be clutch, its an innate thing and hence, talent. You appear to put all your talent evaluation on the offensive end of things. So you see Payton as being more talented. That's cool. I respect that. I just see things differently.

We will just have to agree to disagree as your passion for your opinion appears to be getting the best of you and you're now resorting to taking this beyond polite conversation. Have a TP for your troubles,

[IDreamCeltics]

I watched both play too and have come up with an opposite opinion. Here is the statistical comparison for this year. It shows that Payton is a slightly better offensive player but overall, Payton isn't even a good offensive player, just better than a bad offensive player like Smart. But Smart is world's better as a defensive player. Smart will most likely be a multiple time NBA All-Defense member in his career. Payton will never make another All NBA team after his rookie recognition. Add that to your own admission that Smart is more versatile defensively, has more tenacity, more hustle and IMO more leadership and clutchness and it leads me to believe Smart has more talent and is a better all around basketball player. His basketball talent just happens to be on the defensive end, not offensive.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Marcus+Smart&player_id1_select=Marcus+Smart&y1=2017&player_id1=smartma01&player_id2_hint=Elfrid+Payton&player_id2_select=Elfrid+Payton&y2=2017&player_id2=paytoel01

Those numbers make a pretty compelling case that Payton is the superior player.  Look at the advanced numbers... Payton blows Smart away in every major category. The only stats where Smart has the advantage are defensive advanced stats that are actually MUCH closer than I would have thought.

I had no idea that .429 of all Smarts shots are three point attempts.  That's horrifying.  He's shooting .277 from 3 this season and almost half his shots are threes... 

Payton is better in PER, Offensive Box Plus Minus, Box Plus Minus, VORP, Win Shares, Win Shares/48, and Turnover%...

 

[Moranis]

What makes the winshare advantage even more surprising is the one with better winshares plays on a team with half as many wins. That shouldn't happen when comparing "equal" players.

[celtics2030]

We love Smart ,  trust me I really do.

My infatuation for Payton is because I like him coming into the draft, I also like how he cares more about getting players involved than making himself look good.

I am an old school head. I love pure point guards.

I actually like Smart too , but I think he shoots too much , maybe that is on him, maybe on the coaching staff..

but skills wise im telling everybody, Payton is a very very very good pure point. He just cannot shoot well at all. Although he is a very good finisher and can penetrate very well.

[celtics2030]

I watched both play too and have come up with an opposite opinion. Here is the statistical comparison for this year. It shows that Payton is a slightly better offensive player but overall, Payton isn't even a good offensive player, just better than a bad offensive player like Smart. But Smart is world's better as a defensive player. Smart will most likely be a multiple time NBA All-Defense member in his career. Payton will never make another All NBA team after his rookie recognition. Add that to your own admission that Smart is more versatile defensively, has more tenacity, more hustle and IMO more leadership and clutchness and it leads me to believe Smart has more talent and is a better all around basketball player. His basketball talent just happens to be on the defensive end, not offensive.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Marcus+Smart&player_id1_select=Marcus+Smart&y1=2017&player_id1=smartma01&player_id2_hint=Elfrid+Payton&player_id2_select=Elfrid+Payton&y2=2017&player_id2=paytoel01

Thats bafoonery, one guy cant even shoot 35% from the field.....

Elfrid Payton mind you just got his 5th triple double of the season with 20, 12, and 11

he had 15 assists last night and one rbeound shy of another triple double

it's not even close. Marcus is putrid as an offensive player.

You are grasping at straws now. He will not always be an elite player no defense, heneeds to learn offense much like Bradley , but I don't see it, his skill level is below par.

You are lying if you watch them both and cannot tell the difference on offense, one is a real point guard and one is an effort point guard.

At least Elfrid can get to the rim and finish anytime he wants.

You know, no need for harsh words like buffoonery or questioning my ability to judge talent. People can see things differently. I happen to put a lot more stock in an overall game and ability to effect the game oconversation.I also belueve that part of talent is leadership and ability to be clutch, its an innate thing and hence, talent. You appear to put all your talent evaluation on the offensive end of things. So you see Payton as being more talented. That's cool. I respect that. I just see things differently.

We will just have to agree to disagree as your passion for your opinion appears to be getting the best of you and you're now resorting to taking this beyond polite conversation. Have a TP for your troubles,

I didn't mean that to be harsch, i just feel like that is what that is.

I am not saying you cannot judge, but in this case I feel like you have green colored glasses on.

Payton has been amazing since the all star break. When I had this argument with others they pointed towards numbers.

Now what will be the excuse? That his team stinks and he gets all the numbers?

He is the franchise leader now in triple doubles, his PER is good, he is averaging 8 rebounds and 8 asissts since the break on this crappy team. The guy has been very very good , and he is shooting 47% from the field.

[Dino Pitino]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

[celtics2030]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

[Dino Pitino]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

[celtics2030]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

Take out those heaves and you are telling me he will be shooting over 40% from the field? and 35% from 3?

[Dino Pitino]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

Take out those heaves and you are telling me he will be shooting over 40% from the field? and 35% from 3?

Not just halfcourt-or-longer heaves, but also forced threes as the clock expires, combined, and if it turns out he's literally averaging 1 per game, then yes, 40 overall and 35 from three would literally be his percentages otherwise. Averaging one desperation shot per game is not implausible, since there have been individual games I and others remember when he took 2 or 3. Hell, it almost seems like he is the Designated Halfcourt Heaver, like, most players might care about their percentages and be averse to taking them, but Marcus might have an explicit greenlight, as if the team has reassured him that they will account for them in their internal stats for him.

[celtics2030]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

Take out those heaves and you are telling me he will be shooting over 40% from the field? and 35% from 3?

Not just halfcourt-or-longer heaves, but also forced threes as the clock expires, combined, and if it turns out he's literally averaging 1 per game, then yes, 40 overall and 35 from three would literally be his percentages otherwise. Averaging one desperation shot per game is not implausible, since there have been individual games I and others remember when he took 2 or 3. Hell, it almost seems like he is the Designated Halfcourt Heaver, like, most players might care about their percentages and be averse to taking them, but Marcus might have an explicit greenlight, as if the team has reassured him that they will account for them in their internal stats for him.

He is 12 for his last 63, he is shooting 18 percent from 3 the last 25 games or so , and you want to tell me that his last second and heaves are the problem?

How about he just sucks at shooting?

Even if we were to substitute what you say are heaves and last second shots with regular 3 point shots from Smart, i doubt he still would make them more as he sucks as it is in shooting regular shots.

[Dino Pitino]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

Take out those heaves and you are telling me he will be shooting over 40% from the field? and 35% from 3?

Not just halfcourt-or-longer heaves, but also forced threes as the clock expires, combined, and if it turns out he's literally averaging 1 per game, then yes, 40 overall and 35 from three would literally be his percentages otherwise. Averaging one desperation shot per game is not implausible, since there have been individual games I and others remember when he took 2 or 3. Hell, it almost seems like he is the Designated Halfcourt Heaver, like, most players might care about their percentages and be averse to taking them, but Marcus might have an explicit greenlight, as if the team has reassured him that they will account for them in their internal stats for him.

He is 12 for his last 63, he is shooting 18 percent from 3 the last 25 games or so , and you want to tell me that his last second and heaves are the problem?

How about he just sucks at shooting?

Even if we were to substitute what you say are heaves and last second shots with regular 3 point shots from Smart, i doubt he still would make them more as he sucks as it is in shooting regular shots.

Why are you substituting the desperation threes with regular threes, instead of just subtracting them? Because...it wouldn't allow you the joy of continuing to crap on him?

[Ilikesports17]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

Take out those heaves and you are telling me he will be shooting over 40% from the field? and 35% from 3?

Not just halfcourt-or-longer heaves, but also forced threes as the clock expires, combined, and if it turns out he's literally averaging 1 per game, then yes, 40 overall and 35 from three would literally be his percentages otherwise. Averaging one desperation shot per game is not implausible, since there have been individual games I and others remember when he took 2 or 3. Hell, it almost seems like he is the Designated Halfcourt Heaver, like, most players might care about their percentages and be averse to taking them, but Marcus might have an explicit greenlight, as if the team has reassured him that they will account for them in their internal stats for him.

He is 12 for his last 63, he is shooting 18 percent from 3 the last 25 games or so , and you want to tell me that his last second and heaves are the problem?

How about he just sucks at shooting?

Even if we were to substitute what you say are heaves and last second shots with regular 3 point shots from Smart, i doubt he still would make them more as he sucks as it is in shooting regular shots.

Why are you substituting the desperation threes with regular threes, instead of just subtracting them? Because...it wouldn't allow you the joy of continuing to crap on him?

you cant remove desperation shots and heaves.

Everyone takes them. Smart might take more than others(he definitely takes more heaves) but the ball doesnt just gravitate to Marcus at the end of the shot clock.

He is a horrible shooter. I think the numbers exaggerate his horriblenes a tiny bit and if he didnt force so many shots his percentages would be better, but dont get it twisted, he is an awful awful scorer.

[celtics2030]

Mentioned briefly upthread, but I would like to know more about the number of hopeless heaves and shot clock ending desperation shots Marcus puts up. I think it's at least 1 per game. Doesn't a site like Synergy track things like that? I bet the Celtics front office knows exactly how many shots he takes which should be discountes from his total and I bet they have an idea of what his REAL shooting percentages are without such shots. Any fan who hasn't been watching games and only looks at box scores is going to have a falsely horrible view of Smart's shooting.

This is the biggest excuse for his putrid shooting. Let's blame heaves. I am not saying he doesn't shoot a lot of them but shall we substitute them for regular three point misses he throws up? Or the countless layups he is blocked or misses?

If he is literally averaging one desperation shot per game, then his 3% becomes 35% and his overall FG% becomes a touch above 40. That matches the eye test of his form and selection-in-non-desperation-situations being better, which is further backed up by his continually improving FT%.

Take out those heaves and you are telling me he will be shooting over 40% from the field? and 35% from 3?

Not just halfcourt-or-longer heaves, but also forced threes as the clock expires, combined, and if it turns out he's literally averaging 1 per game, then yes, 40 overall and 35 from three would literally be his percentages otherwise. Averaging one desperation shot per game is not implausible, since there have been individual games I and others remember when he took 2 or 3. Hell, it almost seems like he is the Designated Halfcourt Heaver, like, most players might care about their percentages and be averse to taking them, but Marcus might have an explicit greenlight, as if the team has reassured him that they will account for them in their internal stats for him.

He is 12 for his last 63, he is shooting 18 percent from 3 the last 25 games or so , and you want to tell me that his last second and heaves are the problem?

How about he just sucks at shooting?

Even if we were to substitute what you say are heaves and last second shots with regular 3 point shots from Smart, i doubt he still would make them more as he sucks as it is in shooting regular shots.

Why are you substituting the desperation threes with regular threes, instead of just subtracting them? Because...it wouldn't allow you the joy of continuing to crap on him?

Crap on him? I am not , he is what he is, and he is perfect for this team right now. He plays 30 minutes, for him to do that he is doing something right, but offensively he stinks, he is outright putrid, nasty disgusting

You only have the excuse of heaves and last second shots. The proof is in front of the eyes. He just is not talented enough to be a good offensive player right now.

He is a solid playmaker though , and he has improved his ft % but he is a terrible shooter.