Author Topic: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...  (Read 3749 times)

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Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2017, 09:36:57 AM »

Offline chambers

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missed a bunch of games with knee soreness.

Isnt a wow-type athlete, so its possible that he struggles to get his shot in the NBA.

Not superlative as a defender.

Hes not a guy with many flaws. If you really wanted to make an argument against Fultz, you would focus more on the strengths of guys like Jackson Tatum and Ball than you would the weaknesses of Fultz.

Jackson is an elite athlete, who plays elite defense, is an elite passer, and is an elite competitor.

Ball is truly a gifted passer who has unlimited range.

Tatum is a gifted scorer.

If you pick dont pick Fultz it is because you believe one of those guys elite traits is transcendent in the order of Stephen Curry's shooting or something of the like.

This is my thinking as well.

I think you have to give Fultz more credit as an elite shot maker and distributor. He has a better assist:turnover ratio than ball too.

Ask yourself.
When have we seen anyone score the ball from 3, mid range and in the paint this well? He's a scoring machine.
That's what he's elite at.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2017, 10:40:51 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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missed a bunch of games with knee soreness.

Isnt a wow-type athlete, so its possible that he struggles to get his shot in the NBA.

Not superlative as a defender.

Hes not a guy with many flaws. If you really wanted to make an argument against Fultz, you would focus more on the strengths of guys like Jackson Tatum and Ball than you would the weaknesses of Fultz.

Jackson is an elite athlete, who plays elite defense, is an elite passer, and is an elite competitor.

Ball is truly a gifted passer who has unlimited range.

Tatum is a gifted scorer.

If you pick dont pick Fultz it is because you believe one of those guys elite traits is transcendent in the order of Stephen Curry's shooting or something of the like.

This is my thinking as well.

I think you have to give Fultz more credit as an elite shot maker and distributor. He has a better assist:turnover ratio than ball too.

Ask yourself.
When have we seen anyone score the ball from 3, mid range and in the paint this well? He's a scoring machine.
That's what he's elite at.

As long as he's matched up with inferior talent.  Struggled against the elite teams.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2017, 10:43:50 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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missed a bunch of games with knee soreness.

Isnt a wow-type athlete, so its possible that he struggles to get his shot in the NBA.

Not superlative as a defender.

Hes not a guy with many flaws. If you really wanted to make an argument against Fultz, you would focus more on the strengths of guys like Jackson Tatum and Ball than you would the weaknesses of Fultz.

Jackson is an elite athlete, who plays elite defense, is an elite passer, and is an elite competitor.

Ball is truly a gifted passer who has unlimited range.

Tatum is a gifted scorer.

If you pick dont pick Fultz it is because you believe one of those guys elite traits is transcendent in the order of Stephen Curry's shooting or something of the like.

This is my thinking as well.

I think you have to give Fultz more credit as an elite shot maker and distributor. He has a better assist:turnover ratio than ball too.

Ask yourself.
When have we seen anyone score the ball from 3, mid range and in the paint this well? He's a scoring machine.
That's what he's elite at.

As long as he's matched up with inferior talent.  Struggled against the elite teams.
hard to judge when hes facing double and triple teams all day.

Teams cant do that vs. Tatum or Jackson.

That said, Fultz is a star scorer for sure, but I dont think its at all unreasonable to project Tatum as a better one.

If you think Fultz is gonna be a low 20s ppg guy and Tatum is gonna be a potential scoring leader you can still take tatum over Fultz.

I wouldnt, but I think a rational person could do it.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2017, 10:44:58 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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missed a bunch of games with knee soreness.

Isnt a wow-type athlete, so its possible that he struggles to get his shot in the NBA.

Not superlative as a defender.

Hes not a guy with many flaws. If you really wanted to make an argument against Fultz, you would focus more on the strengths of guys like Jackson Tatum and Ball than you would the weaknesses of Fultz.

Jackson is an elite athlete, who plays elite defense, is an elite passer, and is an elite competitor.

Ball is truly a gifted passer who has unlimited range.

Tatum is a gifted scorer.

If you pick dont pick Fultz it is because you believe one of those guys elite traits is transcendent in the order of Stephen Curry's shooting or something of the like.

This is my thinking as well.

I think you have to give Fultz more credit as an elite shot maker and distributor. He has a better assist:turnover ratio than ball too.

Ask yourself.
When have we seen anyone score the ball from 3, mid range and in the paint this well? He's a scoring machine.
That's what he's elite at.
I did not know he had a better a/to ratio than Ball. That is impressive.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2017, 01:59:30 AM »

Offline jakeopp

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missed a bunch of games with knee soreness.

Isnt a wow-type athlete, so its possible that he struggles to get his shot in the NBA.

Not superlative as a defender.

Hes not a guy with many flaws. If you really wanted to make an argument against Fultz, you would focus more on the strengths of guys like Jackson Tatum and Ball than you would the weaknesses of Fultz.

Jackson is an elite athlete, who plays elite defense, is an elite passer, and is an elite competitor.

Ball is truly a gifted passer who has unlimited range.

Tatum is a gifted scorer.

If you pick dont pick Fultz it is because you believe one of those guys elite traits is transcendent in the order of Stephen Curry's shooting or something of the like.

This is my thinking as well.

I think you have to give Fultz more credit as an elite shot maker and distributor. He has a better assist:turnover ratio than ball too.

Ask yourself.
When have we seen anyone score the ball from 3, mid range and in the paint this well? He's a scoring machine.
That's what he's elite at.

As long as he's matched up with inferior talent.  Struggled against the elite teams.
hard to judge when hes facing double and triple teams all day.

Teams cant do that vs. Tatum or Jackson.

That said, Fultz is a star scorer for sure, but I dont think its at all unreasonable to project Tatum as a better one.

If you think Fultz is gonna be a low 20s ppg guy and Tatum is gonna be a potential scoring leader you can still take tatum over Fultz.

I wouldnt, but I think a rational person could do it.

If Tatum had Fultz's athleticism i'd agree with you, or if he was a Klay Thompson type knock-down shooter. I have a hard time envisioning him as a top-tier SF with his athleticism.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2017, 04:49:34 AM »

Offline jyyzzoel

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missed a bunch of games with knee soreness.

Isnt a wow-type athlete, so its possible that he struggles to get his shot in the NBA.

Not superlative as a defender.

Hes not a guy with many flaws. If you really wanted to make an argument against Fultz, you would focus more on the strengths of guys like Jackson Tatum and Ball than you would the weaknesses of Fultz.

Jackson is an elite athlete, who plays elite defense, is an elite passer, and is an elite competitor.

Ball is truly a gifted passer who has unlimited range.

Tatum is a gifted scorer.

If you pick dont pick Fultz it is because you believe one of those guys elite traits is transcendent in the order of Stephen Curry's shooting or something of the like.

This is my thinking as well.

I think you have to give Fultz more credit as an elite shot maker and distributor. He has a better assist:turnover ratio than ball too.

Ask yourself.
When have we seen anyone score the ball from 3, mid range and in the paint this well? He's a scoring machine.
That's what he's elite at.

As long as he's matched up with inferior talent.  Struggled against the elite teams.
hard to judge when hes facing double and triple teams all day.

Teams cant do that vs. Tatum or Jackson.

That said, Fultz is a star scorer for sure, but I dont think its at all unreasonable to project Tatum as a better one.

If you think Fultz is gonna be a low 20s ppg guy and Tatum is gonna be a potential scoring leader you can still take tatum over Fultz.

I wouldnt, but I think a rational person could do it.

If Tatum had Fultz's athleticism i'd agree with you, or if he was a Klay Thompson type knock-down shooter. I have a hard time envisioning him as a top-tier SF with his athleticism.

Athleticism? Paul Pierce says hi

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2017, 05:39:46 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I really wouldn't put Fultz behind anyone but you could argue that the team needs more size therefore drafting Jackson or Tatum may be the preferred player. But going off BPA it's got to be Fultz.
My Top 5
Trade targets.      Draft.                     FAs
1. Davis              1.Fultz              1. Griffin*
2. Cousins          2. Tatum          2. Hayward
3. Butler              3. Jackson       3. Millsap
4. George            4. Ball               4. Lowry
5. Favors             5. Isaac            5. Gali

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2017, 07:25:08 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
I just cant agree that Jackson has more potential than Fultz.

I know but you have a man crush on Fultz.   I was addressing the original poster and playing devil's advocate.

But quite a few folks  think he has the most potential.

Quote
Jackson has arguably the most potential out of all the prospects due to his crazy athleticism and his ability to be an impact player in virtually all facets of the game

http://hardwoodhoudini.com/2017/02/09/hh-draft-profile-josh-jackson/

Quote
Josh Jackson is a high level prospect with a lot of potential in the NBA ... He has the size and athletic ability to play two positions in the NBA on both sides of the ball ... Hes a competitor with a great motor, and the rare type of guy who can create offensive out of defense ... Hell need to work on his shot to take his game to the next level, but Jackson appears to have a high floor, as well as the ceiling of an All-Star level player.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/josh-jackson

Here are some ratings of the top players in the 2016 class.  He is ahead of Fultz this list is based on play and potential.   One list had him at one, most do, and the bottom one at two.  Fultz was four.

http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/RecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=highschool

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/news/_/id/170377/josh-jackson


I also think Ainge will look past his character issues because they are competitive in nature.   Who else played that way?   Ainge himself.   

Quote
Through four games, Jackson's reputation has proved true in this regard: His competitive nature. He hates losing in every facet, be it a possession, a series, a battle for a ball, anything. This competitiveness also forms a certain aggressiveness, and because of that, the one issue plaguing Jackson early into his college career is foul trouble. In the Jayhawks' 83-63 victory vs. UAB in the CBE Classic on Monday, Jackson picked up his second whistle midway through the first half.
 

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/what-weve-seen-so-far-from-kansas-josh-jackson-the-potential-no-1-nba-pick/

Now if Fultz comes in and has a better workout and we are lucky enough to pick first then you have to take him. 

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2017, 01:27:38 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/04/boston_celtics_draft_2017_mark_1.html

Quote
(Fultz has) been close with Isaiah Thomas since their workouts at Washington this summer. "I've talked to him a lot," Fultz says. And yes, the family is well aware that Boston currently has the best odds at the No. 1 pick. "We always talk about the opportunity. That would be the craziest backcourt. The way he scores, the way I can pass, and the way I can score... we can switch between the one and two."

So it's official. IT and Fultz have been talking about playing together. Gotta say think this is the first draft where I'm going to be absolutley crushed if we miss out on a prospect. The added value to bringing in a cost controlled, top flight stud into our backcourt is borderline immeasurable.

Stylistically it would probably look something like Lillard McCollum but FWIW I do think we would need some legit size in the middle for it to work to it's full capability. The Blazers looked like a new team when they added Nurkic mainly because of the defensive attention he pulls in around the basket. Maybe Zizic is that guy but if he's not we would really need a new option next to Horford to get the most out of Fultz/IT.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2017, 01:39:37 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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according to what scal says, the celtics love fultz as the number one pick. i would not mind that in the least. as much as i like jackson, i think fultz will be the better nba player eventually.
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Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2017, 02:09:46 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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I hope if we do land the #1 pick, Danny Ainge doesn't go ape nuts and draft Lonzo Ball or some nobody.

And if the Lakers somehow land the #1 pick, I hope they get Lonzo Ball.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2017, 02:19:40 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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according to what scal says, the celtics love fultz as the number one pick. i would not mind that in the least. as much as i like jackson, i think fultz will be the better nba player eventually.

I'm not even convinced Jackson would be the pick at 2 or 3. I've got Fultz ahead of the pack by a mile but there are some legitimate concerns with Jackson that have to be considered.

Jackson was recently arraigned for a vandalism incident.

Jackson's jump shot is streaky at best, broken at worst.

I think there's a fair bit of skillset redundancy with Jaylen when considering Jackson.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still advocating BPA but Jayson Tatum is already so close to Jackson without most of the warts that IMO you can consider the level below BPA and ask yourself if Taytum is 2B to Jackson's 2A do you take Jackson or the guy with a hair less potential but way closer to being complete in Taytum.

For transparency sake my Celtics Draft Board goes...
1. Markelle Fultz
2. Jason Tatum
3. Josh Jackson
4. Malik Monk
5. De'Aaron Fox
6. Jonathan Issac
7. Dennis Smith Jr.
8. Lonzo Ball
9. Lauri Markanen
10. Zach Collins

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2017, 02:21:57 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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I hope if we do land the #1 pick, Danny Ainge doesn't go ape nuts and draft Lonzo Ball or some nobody.

And if the Lakers somehow land the #1 pick, I hope they get Lonzo Ball.

I'm absolutely hoping for a world where L.A. gets Ball, we get Fultz and every game for the next 10 years is a classic.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2017, 03:27:26 PM »

Offline clevelandceltic

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I think Fultz is the clear #1 because I think his offensive game is so well rounded and high level. I dont have any questions about his offense in the pros. I think his D will be fine. I have very few questions about him.

With Jackson I question his handle and his shot.
With Tatum its his east - west movement and his high handle.

I think both will be fine with more space in the NBA. Tatum moreso than Jackson with the space.

With Ball I have a host of questions. Is he coachable? Can he be more than a one dimensional scorer? What is he in HC with the ball in his hands? These are major concerns that I have about him.

Re: Convince Me Markelle Fultz isn't #1 Pick...
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2017, 03:33:23 PM »

Offline clevelandceltic

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Quote
I just cant agree that Jackson has more potential than Fultz.

I know but you have a man crush on Fultz.   I was addressing the original poster and playing devil's advocate.

But quite a few folks  think he has the most potential.

Quote
Jackson has arguably the most potential out of all the prospects due to his crazy athleticism and his ability to be an impact player in virtually all facets of the game

http://hardwoodhoudini.com/2017/02/09/hh-draft-profile-josh-jackson/

Quote
Josh Jackson is a high level prospect with a lot of potential in the NBA ... He has the size and athletic ability to play two positions in the NBA on both sides of the ball ... Hes a competitor with a great motor, and the rare type of guy who can create offensive out of defense ... Hell need to work on his shot to take his game to the next level, but Jackson appears to have a high floor, as well as the ceiling of an All-Star level player.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/josh-jackson

Here are some ratings of the top players in the 2016 class.  He is ahead of Fultz this list is based on play and potential.   One list had him at one, most do, and the bottom one at two.  Fultz was four.

http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/RecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=highschool

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/news/_/id/170377/josh-jackson


I also think Ainge will look past his character issues because they are competitive in nature.   Who else played that way?   Ainge himself.   

Quote
Through four games, Jackson's reputation has proved true in this regard: His competitive nature. He hates losing in every facet, be it a possession, a series, a battle for a ball, anything. This competitiveness also forms a certain aggressiveness, and because of that, the one issue plaguing Jackson early into his college career is foul trouble. In the Jayhawks' 83-63 victory vs. UAB in the CBE Classic on Monday, Jackson picked up his second whistle midway through the first half.
 

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/what-weve-seen-so-far-from-kansas-josh-jackson-the-potential-no-1-nba-pick/

Now if Fultz comes in and has a better workout and we are lucky enough to pick first then you have to take him.


Lets not bring HS ranking into this. Towns was 9th in his class and everytime I watched him he was far ahead of Alexander and Turner as far as NBA prospects. It wasnt close.