Poll

What To Do With Isaiah Thomas?

Keep Him (Just Pay Him Near Max/Max) - We NEED Him
26 (63.4%)
Trade Him Even If Not For Much (Don't Need Him And His Contract After 2018)
15 (36.6%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?  (Read 12363 times)

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Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2017, 02:09:13 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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I don't think there's much of a market for IT so I think if you're going to trade for him, it's going to be for a flawed young player that you think can develop. I think Aaron Gordon would fit this bill. I'm not saying I would do this trade, just saying this is the type of trade you would have to make.
Have to?  IT for Aaron Gordon?   ;D    ;D    ;D    ;D

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2017, 02:11:33 PM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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It's pretty easy to blame everything on Thomas - and avoid binkys like Smart, Crowder, The Legend of Jaylen Brown, etc. - as this board reminds me every day. Reminds me of someone on the East Coast who's in the news every day.

Thomas is the best player on this squad - and it isn't close. Once you realize that there isn't a player on this roster without "limitations," you'll get the point. Players you love have zero to do with anything.

He should be maxed, and he will be maxed. Anything less would be malfeasance on the part of Celtics management.
I'm going to keep harping on 3 things:

1. The cap is leveling off and fewer teams are going to have max cap room when IT is a FA.
2. All of the reservations that C's fans have about Thomas (size, age, etc.) are the same reservations other GM's are going to have about him when it comes time to hand out checks.
3. Point Guard is the deepest position in the league by far and there are likely 5 PG's going in the top 10 of this summer's draft. What team is going to need a PG let alone be willing to give Isaiah $40 million in year 4?

I remain unconvinced that IT is a lock to get a max deal, even as he's made his way into the MVP conversation this year.

I agree with all your post, but this. I read many basketball forums (English and Spanish language) and Celtic fans are the only ones giving IT presence in the MVP conversation.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2017, 05:15:49 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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I wouldn't trade IT for just picks (he is a top-3 scorer and drafting means unproven players), but a package of Saric + a high pick would be a tempting option, besides the Myles Turner one.

However, I think that IT's being traded depends strongly on two factors:
1. The lottery. If we have a top-2 pick and so the option to select Fultz or Ball, the trade can be closer.
2. Play-off performance. If we get into the NBA finals, for example, with a very good IT, the pressure for not trading IT would be gigantic. Anyway, we know Ainge and he could get the sell-high route.
If we go all the way to the Finals, I bet the farm that IT signs the max and goes nowhere. The whole idea behind trading him is that he can't make us true contenders. If we do become true contenders with him leading the way, why on earth would we trade him?

Having said that, I don't believe we are going to the Finals this year (or the year after that for that matter) :(
This.  I'm not enamored with IT's game but I'm not blind to the fact he's having a phenomenal year scoring.  I have no qualms with trading him for someone better --> better PG that is capable scorer/better passer/better defender.  I don't believe we will be contenders if he's our best player and I'm concerned his ego has grown where he cannot/will not play second fiddle to someone else.

Having said that, if the C's get to the ECF against Cleveland and make a series of it or better yet get to the finals, I'd happily reconsider my attitude towards IT and trading him vs signing him to a max deal.  I don't like signing a less-than-complete player to a deal of that high cost but if he shows he can put this team on his back and carry it through the playoffs then he is indeed the type of player you pay that kind of money to.
It's not just that. IT gives us 30 points and 6 assists per game. In order for him to score 30 points he has to take 20 shots per game. If we sign a second star via the free agency, it's only logical to assume that IT would take less shots (let's say 16-17 shots). If we had a legit big 3 he would take even less than that (let's say 12-13). Would you play him 35 minutes per game in order for him to take 12 shots and give us a few assists? Because that's pretty much everything he does. He is a score-first point guard, his defense is abysmal and he can't rebound the ball.

In other words, IT has to be the go-to guy otherwise he won't be a net positive any more. Problem is, with IT as our go-to guy we ll never win a championship. It's a vicious cycle. You can't win with him leading the way, you can't win with him as a 2nd-3rd option either. That's the number one reason I want him traded.

If we sign two other stars, most of their shots wont come from Thomas touches, but from guys like Smart, Crowder, Amir etc. Thomas would drop by around 6 shots at the most, most likely around 4.

Curry became a secondary option after acquiring Durant, yet his shot attempts only dropped by 2, factoring in Durant's absence isnt enough to lower that significantly. Durant's attempts were reduced by 3. This is arguably the two best offensive players of the league mind you. The players we would be able to add are nowhere near the scoring capability of Kevin Durant. Certainly none of them is a better scorer than Thomas. So unless the guys coming here would be Russel Westbrook, James Harden, Kawhi Leonard and Lebron James, I dont think Thomas tocuhes would lower significantly.
Sure, but that's not the same thing. The Warriors already had Klay (and to a lesser extent Green) to take shots away from Curry. IT is hands down the focal point of our offense. The whole team is built around him. If we sign a second star, his shots per game will take a major fall.

Since you are mentioning Durant, the Thunder would be a more suitable example. Last year Westbrook was taking 18 shots per game. This year he is taking almost 24 shots!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 05:43:39 PM by Jvalin »

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2017, 06:19:11 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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It's pretty easy to blame everything on Thomas - and avoid binkys like Smart, Crowder, The Legend of Jaylen Brown, etc. - as this board reminds me every day. Reminds me of someone on the East Coast who's in the news every day.

Thomas is the best player on this squad - and it isn't close. Once you realize that there isn't a player on this roster without "limitations," you'll get the point. Players you love have zero to do with anything.

He should be maxed, and he will be maxed. Anything less would be malfeasance on the part of Celtics management.
I'm going to keep harping on 3 things:

1. The cap is leveling off and fewer teams are going to have max cap room when IT is a FA.
2. All of the reservations that C's fans have about Thomas (size, age, etc.) are the same reservations other GM's are going to have about him when it comes time to hand out checks.
3. Point Guard is the deepest position in the league by far and there are likely 5 PG's going in the top 10 of this summer's draft. What team is going to need a PG let alone be willing to give Isaiah $40 million in year 4?

I remain unconvinced that IT is a lock to get a max deal, even as he's made his way into the MVP conversation this year.

I agree with all your post, but this. I read many basketball forums (English and Spanish language) and Celtic fans are the only ones giving IT presence in the MVP conversation.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Quote
5. Isaiah Thomas, Boston Celtics
Last week: No. 5

The Celtics received a solid reminder in their past two games (back-to-back wins over Washington and Indiana) about just how valuable Thomas is to the cause. And he’s right, things are just “clicking” for the Celtics right now, which is a great sign as they battle for that No. 2 spot in the Eastern Conference playoff chase. Thomas followed up his two-game absence with that knee injury with back-to-back 25-point games (24.0 points, 4.0 assists, 2.0 rebounds in his last five games).
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2017, 06:46:58 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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It's pretty easy to blame everything on Thomas - and avoid binkys like Smart, Crowder, The Legend of Jaylen Brown, etc. - as this board reminds me every day. Reminds me of someone on the East Coast who's in the news every day.

Thomas is the best player on this squad - and it isn't close. Once you realize that there isn't a player on this roster without "limitations," you'll get the point. Players you love have zero to do with anything.

He should be maxed, and he will be maxed. Anything less would be malfeasance on the part of Celtics management.
I'm going to keep harping on 3 things:

1. The cap is leveling off and fewer teams are going to have max cap room when IT is a FA.
2. All of the reservations that C's fans have about Thomas (size, age, etc.) are the same reservations other GM's are going to have about him when it comes time to hand out checks.
3. Point Guard is the deepest position in the league by far and there are likely 5 PG's going in the top 10 of this summer's draft. What team is going to need a PG let alone be willing to give Isaiah $40 million in year 4?

I remain unconvinced that IT is a lock to get a max deal, even as he's made his way into the MVP conversation this year.

I agree with all your post, but this. I read many basketball forums (English and Spanish language) and Celtic fans are the only ones giving IT presence in the MVP conversation.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Quote
5. Isaiah Thomas, Boston Celtics
Last week: No. 5

The Celtics received a solid reminder in their past two games (back-to-back wins over Washington and Indiana) about just how valuable Thomas is to the cause. And he’s right, things are just “clicking” for the Celtics right now, which is a great sign as they battle for that No. 2 spot in the Eastern Conference playoff chase. Thomas followed up his two-game absence with that knee injury with back-to-back 25-point games (24.0 points, 4.0 assists, 2.0 rebounds in his last five games).

Seems to me there's a huge gap between the top 4 and Thomas, Wall or DeRozan.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2017, 07:56:21 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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It's pretty easy to blame everything on Thomas - and avoid binkys like Smart, Crowder, The Legend of Jaylen Brown, etc. - as this board reminds me every day. Reminds me of someone on the East Coast who's in the news every day.

Thomas is the best player on this squad - and it isn't close. Once you realize that there isn't a player on this roster without "limitations," you'll get the point. Players you love have zero to do with anything.

He should be maxed, and he will be maxed. Anything less would be malfeasance on the part of Celtics management.
I'm going to keep harping on 3 things:

1. The cap is leveling off and fewer teams are going to have max cap room when IT is a FA.
2. All of the reservations that C's fans have about Thomas (size, age, etc.) are the same reservations other GM's are going to have about him when it comes time to hand out checks.
3. Point Guard is the deepest position in the league by far and there are likely 5 PG's going in the top 10 of this summer's draft. What team is going to need a PG let alone be willing to give Isaiah $40 million in year 4?

I remain unconvinced that IT is a lock to get a max deal, even as he's made his way into the MVP conversation this year.

I agree with all your post, but this. I read many basketball forums (English and Spanish language) and Celtic fans are the only ones giving IT presence in the MVP conversation.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Quote
5. Isaiah Thomas, Boston Celtics
Last week: No. 5

The Celtics received a solid reminder in their past two games (back-to-back wins over Washington and Indiana) about just how valuable Thomas is to the cause. And he’s right, things are just “clicking” for the Celtics right now, which is a great sign as they battle for that No. 2 spot in the Eastern Conference playoff chase. Thomas followed up his two-game absence with that knee injury with back-to-back 25-point games (24.0 points, 4.0 assists, 2.0 rebounds in his last five games).

Seems to me there's a huge gap between the top 4 and Thomas, Wall or DeRozan.
There probably is, but the Celtics move into virtual 1st place should revive some consideration for IT. I'd like to see him get a few 3rd place votes perhaps. 

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2017, 08:30:25 PM »

Offline SuddenFame

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Trade IT NOW while his stock is high.  Send him packing for a lotto pick!

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2017, 08:52:15 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Trade IT NOW while his stock is high.  Send him packing for a lotto pick!
I'm not sure if you're being serious. Trade a 30ppg game guy for a LOTTERY pick??
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2017, 09:01:27 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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You'd be surprised that the value of IT isn't what you think it would be. He happens to be a perfect fit for the needs of the Celtics, we need a scorer badly. Honestly, he's more an undersized shooting guard than point guard, (that's why Horford is getting more and more touches lately, we need a facilitator) plus as the NBA knows, he's a major defensive liability. (he now come's out of the game in close games in the 4th quarter)

IT needs to get his arms around the idea that he has star 6th man potential... that's where his value is, then every team in the NBA would love to have him on the roster. In a future perfect world for the C's, Fultz or Ball play the point, with IT coming off the bench.

If he asks for superstar money, as a starter, on par with Harden, Westbrook, Curry etc. it's a no go for me.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2017, 09:39:35 PM »

Offline More Banners

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You'd be surprised that the value of IT isn't what you think it would be. He happens to be a perfect fit for the needs of the Celtics, we need a scorer badly. Honestly, he's more an undersized shooting guard than point guard, (that's why Horford is getting more and more touches lately, we need a facilitator) plus as the NBA knows, he's a major defensive liability. (he now come's out of the game in close games in the 4th quarter)

IT needs to get his arms around the idea that he has star 6th man potential... that's where his value is, then every team in the NBA would love to have him on the roster. In a future perfect world for the C's, Fultz or Ball play the point, with IT coming off the bench.

If he asks for superstar money, as a starter, on par with Harden, Westbrook, Curry etc. it's a no go for me.

Right on.

But he won't "settle" for Jamal Crawford's best years as his career. He has that chip on his shoulder. Dude averages 30 for a reason.

 It truly, props to coach Stevens for finally gathering the stones to pull IT and go offense/defense when possessions count.

IT could be a historic 6th man though.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2017, 11:02:50 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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IT is a dreadful defender. DREADFUL. We'll see if he's exposed again via the pick n roll like he was last year against ATL in the playoffs. Last year though he didn't have our 2nd best scorer and defensive security blanket in AB. This year that should be different. Should be enough to win at least a round but we'll see if Boston can hide him against better opponents as the playoffs go on. We're definitely not gonna move him unless we get proper value back but that is a separate argument from whether or not he is worth maxing out. Just because our better defenders occasionally have off days though, does not mean IT is not a galactically bad defender. It really does speak to the defensive talent around him and Stevens defensive schemes that they have been able to hide him this well.

Danny and Wyc are definitely after a long championship contention window and they would have ZERO problem taking a step back record-wise and playing some younger players if it meant long term games. We're all fans and this is a fun, likeable team so it's understandable that so many are emotionally invested in seeing this group succeed and go far. But Danny is a GM. His job is to look at the situation dispassionately. I don't for one second think he's emotionally invested in the results of this years team. I think he is more fixated on the moves and the overhaul that's likely going to come after this season ends. I suspect no fewer than 4-5 new players will be on this roster next year (most of them young) and a few of our older players will be shuffled out, headlined likely by Jonas and Amir. In other words, we are likely to get even younger next year.

If we keep IT, don't you have to resign AB for the roughly 20 million that will be his asking price to remain IT's body guard? Do you really want to go into an ECF with IT trying to check Kyrie Irving for 7 games? How about John Wall? And at 29, when his extension kicks in, isn't he going to be worse defensively than he is now? Isn't he gonna be even more battered from relentlessly slamming into picks and hitting the deck 4-5 times a game on drives to the hole? Sure he's strong. Sure he has will. But at some point, physics catches up.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #101 on: March 28, 2017, 06:54:54 AM »

Offline SuddenFame

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I don't care what we get for him --just get rid of him!!  He's not a foundational piece at all, just Spud Webb on steroids.  I would take Frank Ntilikina over him ANY day of the week even at the expense of seeding and some wins.  The Celtics best hope moving forward is a youth movement and searching for a legit superstar in the draft, oversees or free agency.  Maxing-out a guy who is 5 foot six on a good day is flat-out retarded.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2017, 07:22:13 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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It's pretty easy to blame everything on Thomas - and avoid binkys like Smart, Crowder, The Legend of Jaylen Brown, etc. - as this board reminds me every day. Reminds me of someone on the East Coast who's in the news every day.

Thomas is the best player on this squad - and it isn't close. Once you realize that there isn't a player on this roster without "limitations," you'll get the point. Players you love have zero to do with anything.

He should be maxed, and he will be maxed. Anything less would be malfeasance on the part of Celtics management.
I'm going to keep harping on 3 things:

1. The cap is leveling off and fewer teams are going to have max cap room when IT is a FA.
2. All of the reservations that C's fans have about Thomas (size, age, etc.) are the same reservations other GM's are going to have about him when it comes time to hand out checks.
3. Point Guard is the deepest position in the league by far and there are likely 5 PG's going in the top 10 of this summer's draft. What team is going to need a PG let alone be willing to give Isaiah $40 million in year 4?

I remain unconvinced that IT is a lock to get a max deal, even as he's made his way into the MVP conversation this year.

I agree with all your post, but this. I read many basketball forums (English and Spanish language) and Celtic fans are the only ones giving IT presence in the MVP conversation.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Quote
5. Isaiah Thomas, Boston Celtics
Last week: No. 5

The Celtics received a solid reminder in their past two games (back-to-back wins over Washington and Indiana) about just how valuable Thomas is to the cause. And he’s right, things are just “clicking” for the Celtics right now, which is a great sign as they battle for that No. 2 spot in the Eastern Conference playoff chase. Thomas followed up his two-game absence with that knee injury with back-to-back 25-point games (24.0 points, 4.0 assists, 2.0 rebounds in his last five games).

He is a product the NBA wants to sell badly, it's logical to get him so high. Celtics on the rise, a historic team with a huge fan base, a guy with whom people can identify themselves due to his common height, etc. We'll see when journalists vote if he is even All-NBA second team

Bradley needs to defend one and a half guy to keep him fresh, and as I have reminded people many times, basketball is a two-sided sport. I can't think of IT as the most valuable player in the league, not even close.

Having said that, for our style of team defense, switches and lack of a scorer, he is a tremendous fit. It may change if we draft Fultz and a change of scenery will be on the table, though. Getting 65 million per year for Isaiah Thomas and Horford will be hard to contend if we want to keep other players and have a realiable bench.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2017, 04:13:35 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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It's pretty easy to blame everything on Thomas - and avoid binkys like Smart, Crowder, The Legend of Jaylen Brown, etc. - as this board reminds me every day. Reminds me of someone on the East Coast who's in the news every day.

Thomas is the best player on this squad - and it isn't close. Once you realize that there isn't a player on this roster without "limitations," you'll get the point. Players you love have zero to do with anything.

He should be maxed, and he will be maxed. Anything less would be malfeasance on the part of Celtics management.
I'm going to keep harping on 3 things:

1. The cap is leveling off and fewer teams are going to have max cap room when IT is a FA.
2. All of the reservations that C's fans have about Thomas (size, age, etc.) are the same reservations other GM's are going to have about him when it comes time to hand out checks.
3. Point Guard is the deepest position in the league by far and there are likely 5 PG's going in the top 10 of this summer's draft. What team is going to need a PG let alone be willing to give Isaiah $40 million in year 4?

I remain unconvinced that IT is a lock to get a max deal, even as he's made his way into the MVP conversation this year.

I agree with all your post, but this. I read many basketball forums (English and Spanish language) and Celtic fans are the only ones giving IT presence in the MVP conversation.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder

Quote
5. Isaiah Thomas, Boston Celtics
Last week: No. 5

The Celtics received a solid reminder in their past two games (back-to-back wins over Washington and Indiana) about just how valuable Thomas is to the cause. And he’s right, things are just “clicking” for the Celtics right now, which is a great sign as they battle for that No. 2 spot in the Eastern Conference playoff chase. Thomas followed up his two-game absence with that knee injury with back-to-back 25-point games (24.0 points, 4.0 assists, 2.0 rebounds in his last five games).

He is a product the NBA wants to sell badly, it's logical to get him so high. Celtics on the rise, a historic team with a huge fan base, a guy with whom people can identify themselves due to his common height, etc. We'll see when journalists vote if he is even All-NBA second team

Bradley needs to defend one and a half guy to keep him fresh, and as I have reminded people many times, basketball is a two-sided sport. I can't think of IT as the most valuable player in the league, not even close.

Having said that, for our style of team defense, switches and lack of a scorer, he is a tremendous fit. It may change if we draft Fultz and a change of scenery will be on the table, though. Getting 65 million per year for Isaiah Thomas and Horford will be hard to contend if we want to keep other players and have a realiable bench.

So he went from someone only Celtic fans discuss to being a product the NBA wants to push? Talk about moving goalposts when someone showed you that you weren't totally correct.

Here's another source from a few weeks ago:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/mvp-rankings-finally-the-nbas-best-player-reaches-no-1-with-kawhi-leonard-close/amp/

Celtic fans aren't the only one putting him up there. This is pretty much Harden's award to lose, but Thomas has been brought up a lot by the media. If the Celtics hold the first seed, I'd be pretty shocked if IT didn't make an all NBA team, and if he didn't, it would just expose how biased the media is against shorter players who struggle on defense (no one is docking Harden or players like Irving for their junky defense).

I don't really agree with the media pushing this as a 4 man race in general anyway. Harden and Leonard are far and away my leading candidates. Westbrook is getting overrated because of triple doubles, and Lebron is up there because of historical bias, IMO. Cleveland has played like junk for a few months now, meh.

Re: To The "Trade IT" Crowd. What Are We Trading Him FOR?
« Reply #104 on: March 28, 2017, 04:13:37 PM »

Offline Big333223

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At best IT is the 5th man in a 4 man race for MVP. But that he's played his way into the conversation at all is incredibly impressive.
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