Author Topic: Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays  (Read 818 times)

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Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays
« on: March 18, 2017, 06:43:09 AM »

Offline Rhyso

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Watching the Nets game it seems clear that aside from IT, nobody else on roster can really create their own shot consistently or get into the paint of the dribble through isolation, instead we just jack bad 3's. Stevens system has several options for every play which generates great ball movement, space, and a free flowing offense, but once a play breaks down we don't have many options left (ie IT time, or Al in the post).

Is this a result of just not having natural offensive talent on the roster, or the system hindering player development of shot creation and isolation dribble drives? While the latter generally creates a lower percentage shot, is ignoring this part of the game (when plays break down) the best approach for player development?

For the most part I like what Brad has implemented, however I feel running A FEW individual plays like posting up Smart more, or getting Brown some Iso plays to open up some Mid range game would help long term with aiding our offensive production and development. Would rather see that then just bombing bad 3 pointers all game anyway. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 11:17:44 AM by Rhyso »

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2017, 06:48:57 AM »

Offline nebist

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So you want more isolation play that will lead to contested dribble pull ups rather than statistically higher efficiency catch and shoot 3s after ball movement?  Not understanding that. Celtics have one of the best offenses in the league with only one big time scorer.  I don't think it's a system problem if it's a problem at all.

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2017, 07:06:37 AM »

Offline Rhyso

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So you want more isolation play that will lead to contested dribble pull ups rather than statistically higher efficiency catch and shoot 3s after ball movement?  Not understanding that. Celtics have one of the best offenses in the league with only one big time scorer.  I don't think it's a system problem if it's a problem at all.

No like I said I like the System for the most part, but what happens when either IT is out, or a playoff team just decides to completely ice him and make other players make plays?

Shooting 3's doesn't draw fouls or collapse defenses, and I also don't think shooting bail out 3's at the end of a shot clock consistently is a higher percentage shot than a dribble pull up mid range or drive (this is the development I was refering to).

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2017, 07:32:48 AM »

Offline PAOBoston

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This has always been a massive issue for this team and why a player like Jimmy Butler or Gordon Hayward makes perfect sense. Spreading and movement is perfectly fine but you still need players who have the ability to just give them the ball and create, especially when it comes to the playoffs where teams are better and play better defense.

Having a player who can drive and score or create foul opportunities is big and the C's only have IT who can really do it.

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2017, 09:07:42 AM »

Offline nebist

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Fair enough.  I just think it's more personnel than system related.  Stevens has no problem with IT creating his own shot.  Stands to reason he'd be fine with others doing so as well we just need the personnel.

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2017, 10:30:27 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Watching the Nets game it seems clear that aside from IT, nobody else on roster can really create their own shot consistently or get into the paint of the dribble through isolation

 Takes guts to say what is sometimes and in the face of blatant homerism that pervades here.  TP

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2017, 10:43:33 AM »

Offline nebist

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Fultz or Tatum would seem to be a big help with this shot creation issue.  Jackson would double down on our toughness and versatility.  Ball is kind of his own unique thing. 

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2017, 10:58:41 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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hmmm? something I've said for a while - either the personnel is wrong or the coach's system doesn't fit.

imo what makes a great coach is a coach that looks at his roster and says "what do these players do well?" and designs the system around the players. it's a whole lot easier for a coach to adjust than players.

every player on this roster is limited offensively. early in the season I started a thread hinting at what the issue with this team was/is and no one really got it. and the real main issue this team has is there's not a single player on the roster that is a threat to drive and actually finish, on the rare occasions that we do drive there's a better than good chance we aren't going to finish. every player on this team takes 2-3 dribbles to the basket and looks to pass. this was highly noticeable early in the season, teams were playing us for the pass. need evidence of this? go back and watch the 1st game against Golden State. the whole stretch leading into that game that's what most of the teams were doing.

I know everyone will read this and say "IT, IT... he drives". and he does but he's limited by his size, teams corral him and take passing lanes away and force him into horrible turnovers. this will be prevalent in the playoffs.

so what we're left with is a buncha guys that take horrible jump shots that are contested most of the time. sometimes we make 'em sometimes we don't, the inconsistency comes from taking bad shots. this will be accentuated in the playoffs.

what it boils down to is we need better players, stevens hands are tied as there really isn't another option to turn to.

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2017, 11:14:51 AM »

Offline td450

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I just said this in another thread, but the problem is Smart and Rozier. Everyone else can play their role just fine, but our backup point guards are horrendous offensive players. It doesn't look quite so bad when they are playing backup roles, but as starters, it can be pretty ugly

Re: Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2017, 11:48:50 AM »

Offline CelticGuardian

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Maybe what Browm told Smart was that he couldn't wait until next year when his PG's defender doesn' t see the need to sag off of him all the time.

What we have here is quite simple.

The product on the floor last night was the C's core minus the only player that can collapse the paint and we have a guard in his third year who can't keep defenders glued to him as they leave to take away his teammates drives. The system is effective towards the common goal of winning evident by our record and Brad Stevens' reputation around the NBA.

A system built around an offensive prodigy in Isaiah Thomas... But Smart is no IT. Only other players that can possibly make other defenders look towards a baseline or the paint is Jaylen Brown. This is a personnel issue with a hint of Stevens quite possibly getting lazy with there seemingly being no appearance of attempting to run Jaylen as primary ballhandler plays due to what I just mentioned with his ability to initiate strong drives and get the ball closer to the basket.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 12:02:51 PM by CelticGuardian »

Re: Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2017, 11:51:42 AM »

Online Phantom255x

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That's where we also miss Turner. He had that ability.

Not saying we should have payed him that ridiculous contract, but we didn't really replace him and in games without IT, it's showing.

Turner was like our 2nd/3rd best scorer in the Hawks series last year because of that ability. Once they contained IT, it was Turner (and Smart that Game 4).

Re: Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2017, 12:44:49 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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Yes... the C's have one of the better offenses in the league WITH IT on the floor.

Double IT, get the ball out of his hands, or be physical with him, and challenge others to score, and we have a problem.

Too many players that are inconsistent in the way they score, and can't find their own shot. Too many players that score 23 one game and 5 the next two.

Re: Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2017, 01:07:38 PM »

Offline nebist

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Yeah, so I'm not understanding the complaint.  We have a remarkably efficient offense considering our lack of true shot creators.  Once we add a few more shot creators in the draft or free agency or trade our offense will be even better and our catch and shoot guys will be even more effective. 

Re: Creating shots of the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 01:57:36 PM »

Offline footey

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Fultz or Tatum would seem to be a big help with this shot creation issue.  Jackson would double down on our toughness and versatility.  Ball is kind of his own unique thing.

Agree. TP.

Re: Creating shots off the dribble vs System plays
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2017, 02:54:09 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

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That's where we also miss Turner. He had that ability.

Not saying we should have payed him that ridiculous contract, but we didn't really replace him and in games without IT, it's showing.

Turner was like our 2nd/3rd best scorer in the Hawks series last year because of that ability. Once they contained IT, it was Turner (and Smart that Game 4).
Yep. I think expectation wad Rozier would make a jump this year but that never happened. Miss Turner. He was clutch for the Cs. I can't fault him for taking that deal though.