Author Topic: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?  (Read 1842 times)

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Re: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2017, 12:14:51 PM »

Offline td450

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I'm encouraged by the fact that Ainge seems to value Bradley appropriately, even if many on this board do not.

Yeah, I feel the same way.

I get that Bradley has had a hard time staying healthy but he is hands down, far and away our best defensive player. Jae and Marcus are good defenders themselves, but they don't hold a candle to Bradley. And Bradley is also a clearly better offensive player as well.

If he has to be part of a trade package for a super star, I'm fine with that. Otherwise, I really hope he is going to be part of our long term plans. I realize he will be a free agent soon, but he deserves the payday he is likely to get, and I hope Ainge pays Bradley his due. Quite frankly, I'd much rather trade Smart or Crowder before I let Bradley go.
  Agree!!

It's not that simple.  You wouldn't get rid of Crowder before AB because Crowder makes like 7mm a year and Bradley is going to make 2.5-3x that amount.  And one reason people may not appreciate Bradley like they should (he is extremely good) and something I can't exactly figure out is that the team is just as effective without him as they are with him, at least regular season.

C's fans need to understand something about Crowder's great contract. It's only great if he plugs into a starter slot, so we get to avoid paying another starter big money because of it.

If he's just another guy on the team, and we are paying Gordon Hayward max or near max, it doesn't do us any good to speak of.

That is completely incorrect. Crowder's contract is great whether he starts or comes off the bench. The ~$7 million he's due for the next 3+ years is a tiny portion of the cap (even less than the mid level exception) and he by far outperforms it. Having a guy that can be your 6th man getting paid less than the MLE is huge for a team that will be over the cap/into the luxury tax.

Just look at what the Warriors have been paying their 6th man: iguadola gets $11 million a year. And the Cavs? $9.8 million for Shumpert and $7.8 million for Frye. Having a guy that's as good or better than the the 6th men for those teams getting payed less is a huge help to our future cap.
First off, the Crowder's current contract is two years longer than Bradley's. At the moment, Bradley's salary is at least as big a bargain as Crowder's. So this is about 2 years, not 3 1/2.

Second, no one cares about saving 3-4 million for a team that is shooting for 60+ wins, which we should be doing in 2018-19. We won't have cap space again after next year for many years.

And if we sign Hayward and keep Jaylen, he'll be in his 3rd year and should be a better player at that point. Crowder would not be our 6th man in two years. He might not crack the rotation.



Re: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2017, 12:44:56 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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No, we won't.  Presti took advantage of a unique situation with Rob Hennigan needing his team to perform to likely keep his job, and there are simpy less skilled 2-way 6'9" guys than 6'3" guys.  Also, if we are to believe DA (though who is to say if it's true), teams are lowballing us for our 'assets'.

That said, he's a first team all defender who can now rebound like a forward, hit 3's and create his own shot.  He's one of 3 guys on our team who can create his own shot, with IT and Jaylen (and maybe Rozier but he isn't too good at hitting the shots he creates).  I would hope we could get a solid return on him if we decide that Smart is the guy we want to hold onto long term.
That wasn't a unique situation. There will always be GMs looking to save their jobs. Dell Demps is one that springs to mind, the Phoenix guy may well be another soon. Danny took advantage of Billy King in the same way.

In this situation I don't think Danny has a desire to downgrade from Bradley to a rookie scale guy and a pick. Because that is what happened in OKC, they downgraded their roster in that trade. They decided they weren't going to pay Ibaka and got value while they could. It might have played into Durant's FA thinking as well, seeing his team be unwilling to commit to his teammates. Danny isn't downgrading this roster, he'll pay Bradley.

Besides a draft pick, who are Dell Demps and the Phoenix guy going to trade us that you would want?  You're not getting AD, Cousins, Booker, Chriss.  I agree there will be GMs looking to save their jobs but if AB had as much value as Ibaka, don't you think he's be viewed as more than a throw in on a deal for Jimmy Butler, who is barely leading him team to a playoff spot in the East?

I'm not sure how you can be so confident we'll pay Bradley.  If we sign a big free agent this summer sure, because in that order we can go over the cap to keep our guys.  But if we don't and DA has to pay 60mm+ per year to keep IT/AB/Smart, I'm not sure how you know AB will be kept when yes, the team has done better without him.  As I said, he's a great player and I don't know how they've done better, but it's better to trade him than to let him walk.  And if you trade him, you might have to downgrade in the short term if that's the best offer, because the best offer is probably better than getting nothing unless you use the money saved on another guy or a FA.
Ok firstly let's get one thing clear, this team is better with Bradley. Stats don't tell everything, small sample sizes etc... We as a fanbase have spent most of the season begging for a consistent number 2 scorer to help IT, since coming back that has been Bradley. Again small sample size warning but we didn't do so well with Bradley out against the Hawks last year.

I wouldn't call him a throw in to the proposed Bradley trade. He was a key named piece along with the Nets pick and Smart/Crowder. A throw in would be James Young.. And there was strong belief that Ainge was unwilling to part with so much for Butler, suggesting he values Bradley highly.

I don't know who the GMs will be, they like to surprise us. My point is mainly that there are always bad GMs
- Renegotiate IT
- Draft Fultz
- Extend the life of this core until the young guys are ready

Re: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2017, 01:22:37 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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No, we won't.  Presti took advantage of a unique situation with Rob Hennigan needing his team to perform to likely keep his job, and there are simpy less skilled 2-way 6'9" guys than 6'3" guys.  Also, if we are to believe DA (though who is to say if it's true), teams are lowballing us for our 'assets'.

That said, he's a first team all defender who can now rebound like a forward, hit 3's and create his own shot.  He's one of 3 guys on our team who can create his own shot, with IT and Jaylen (and maybe Rozier but he isn't too good at hitting the shots he creates).  I would hope we could get a solid return on him if we decide that Smart is the guy we want to hold onto long term.
That wasn't a unique situation. There will always be GMs looking to save their jobs. Dell Demps is one that springs to mind, the Phoenix guy may well be another soon. Danny took advantage of Billy King in the same way.

In this situation I don't think Danny has a desire to downgrade from Bradley to a rookie scale guy and a pick. Because that is what happened in OKC, they downgraded their roster in that trade. They decided they weren't going to pay Ibaka and got value while they could. It might have played into Durant's FA thinking as well, seeing his team be unwilling to commit to his teammates. Danny isn't downgrading this roster, he'll pay Bradley.

Besides a draft pick, who are Dell Demps and the Phoenix guy going to trade us that you would want?  You're not getting AD, Cousins, Booker, Chriss.  I agree there will be GMs looking to save their jobs but if AB had as much value as Ibaka, don't you think he's be viewed as more than a throw in on a deal for Jimmy Butler, who is barely leading him team to a playoff spot in the East?

I'm not sure how you can be so confident we'll pay Bradley.  If we sign a big free agent this summer sure, because in that order we can go over the cap to keep our guys.  But if we don't and DA has to pay 60mm+ per year to keep IT/AB/Smart, I'm not sure how you know AB will be kept when yes, the team has done better without him.  As I said, he's a great player and I don't know how they've done better, but it's better to trade him than to let him walk.  And if you trade him, you might have to downgrade in the short term if that's the best offer, because the best offer is probably better than getting nothing unless you use the money saved on another guy or a FA.
Ok firstly let's get one thing clear, this team is better with Bradley. Stats don't tell everything, small sample sizes etc... We as a fanbase have spent most of the season begging for a consistent number 2 scorer to help IT, since coming back that has been Bradley. Again small sample size warning but we didn't do so well with Bradley out against the Hawks last year.

I wouldn't call him a throw in to the proposed Bradley trade. He was a key named piece along with the Nets pick and Smart/Crowder. A throw in would be James Young.. And there was strong belief that Ainge was unwilling to part with so much for Butler, suggesting he values Bradley highly.

I don't know who the GMs will be, they like to surprise us. My point is mainly that there are always bad GMs

I agree they're better with him, which is speculative in nature, but what I said is they've done better without him, which this season is a fact.  I'm less versed in the stats honestly and more versed in the eye test, and I agree we need a second shot creator.  But we can't keep all of IT/AB/Smart and expect to be a true contender unless we sign a max FA this summer before we have to resign AB, or get a near Towns-level impact rookie (obviously possible but not a given).

Danny has proven with his lack of moves that he's going title or bust.  He won't cap out a team that has a 3 year window and a peak of the ECF if that's his assessment.  I feel pretty confident about that.   If you think it's that easy to trade the exact player you want with bad GMs without possibly downgrading short term, that's your opinion.  I don't agree.  There have been bad GMs for the past 2 years and we haven't been able to make any deals.  What does that tell you?  We now have one year and one year only to trade AB. 

Throw in is semantics, and we don't know the exact offer, but the centerpiece of the deal was one Nets pick and could have been Brown and the other Nets pick.  It seems to me we have to include one of either AB, Smart or Crowder.  That makes one of those 3 guys the throw in.  You may think only a James Young type is a throw in but I think it's all relative and specific to the deal.  James Young was never in the equation in this deal and I think AB is a great player, not a throw in type of player, but in a deal to acquire a top 15-20 player, IMO he could be the 'throw in' piece.  But I can see how you wouldn't call him a throw in and I respect that.  I don't think it's likely we get as much as Ibaka fetched.  Possible, yes.  Likely, I doubt it, and I'd wager TPs on that. 

Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

Re: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2017, 01:33:17 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Also, to further speculate, I think teams are low balling us.  Yes Jimmy Butler is great and yes he basically is the whole Bulls team now, but you can make a case he's a great stats on a bad team guy and not a top 15 player on a contender.  His team is barely a playoff team in a terrible East, it's not like he's Anthony Davis in the West, he's in a much worse conference and had better guys around him than AD until the deadline, and Chicago demanded a king's ransom for him by all accounts, for two years.  PG13 publicly said he only wanted to play for Indy and LA, tanking his trade value, and Indy still wanted a boatload from us for him.  It seems obvious to me we are either overvaluing our assets (maybe) or we're getting low balled (probable). 

A year of Ibaka (who is a 6'9" 2-way player that can space the floor, shoot as well as Bradley as a power forward, and at least used to be as good on D as Bradley as a vitally important rim protector) for Oladipo a high potential #2 pick, a top 12 pick and more, is not a low ball offer.  What based on the past 2 years makes you think we could top that?  The Kings didn't even get a haul that good for Demarcus freakin Cousins.  Yeah, he has flaws, but so does AB.  It's really, really optimistic to think we're going to get more than the return on Ibaka.  DA's reputation for ripping people off makes that very, very difficult by itself.  It makes GMs look bad at their jobs.
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

Re: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2017, 03:18:02 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Also, to further speculate, I think teams are low balling us.  Yes Jimmy Butler is great and yes he basically is the whole Bulls team now, but you can make a case he's a great stats on a bad team guy and not a top 15 player on a contender.  His team is barely a playoff team in a terrible East, it's not like he's Anthony Davis in the West, he's in a much worse conference and had better guys around him than AD until the deadline, and Chicago demanded a king's ransom for him by all accounts, for two years.  PG13 publicly said he only wanted to play for Indy and LA, tanking his trade value, and Indy still wanted a boatload from us for him.  It seems obvious to me we are either overvaluing our assets (maybe) or we're getting low balled (probable). 

A year of Ibaka (who is a 6'9" 2-way player that can space the floor, shoot as well as Bradley as a power forward, and at least used to be as good on D as Bradley as a vitally important rim protector) for Oladipo a high potential #2 pick, a top 12 pick and more, is not a low ball offer.  What based on the past 2 years makes you think we could top that?  The Kings didn't even get a haul that good for Demarcus freakin Cousins.  Yeah, he has flaws, but so does AB.  It's really, really optimistic to think we're going to get more than the return on Ibaka.  DA's reputation for ripping people off makes that very, very difficult by itself.  It makes GMs look bad at their jobs.
The Pelicans are 5 games worse than the Bulls this year. Thats not because the East is weak.

2 years ago, Butler was the best player on a really good Bulls team that won 50 games and put a bit of a fright into Lebron and the Cavs. This year he started the all-star game. you can make the case that [dang] near anybody isnt a top 15 player. Butler is still a stud.

Paul George did not publicly state that he only would sign with LA or Indiana.

 "Yeah, [Cousins] has flaws, but so does AB" really?
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Could the C's get as much for Bradley as OKC got for Ibaka?
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2017, 04:51:38 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Also, to further speculate, I think teams are low balling us.  Yes Jimmy Butler is great and yes he basically is the whole Bulls team now, but you can make a case he's a great stats on a bad team guy and not a top 15 player on a contender.  His team is barely a playoff team in a terrible East, it's not like he's Anthony Davis in the West, he's in a much worse conference and had better guys around him than AD until the deadline, and Chicago demanded a king's ransom for him by all accounts, for two years.  PG13 publicly said he only wanted to play for Indy and LA, tanking his trade value, and Indy still wanted a boatload from us for him.  It seems obvious to me we are either overvaluing our assets (maybe) or we're getting low balled (probable). 

A year of Ibaka (who is a 6'9" 2-way player that can space the floor, shoot as well as Bradley as a power forward, and at least used to be as good on D as Bradley as a vitally important rim protector) for Oladipo a high potential #2 pick, a top 12 pick and more, is not a low ball offer.  What based on the past 2 years makes you think we could top that?  The Kings didn't even get a haul that good for Demarcus freakin Cousins.  Yeah, he has flaws, but so does AB.  It's really, really optimistic to think we're going to get more than the return on Ibaka.  DA's reputation for ripping people off makes that very, very difficult by itself.  It makes GMs look bad at their jobs.
The Pelicans are 5 games worse than the Bulls this year. Thats not because the East is weak.

2 years ago, Butler was the best player on a really good Bulls team that won 50 games and put a bit of a fright into Lebron and the Cavs. This year he started the all-star game. you can make the case that [dang] near anybody isnt a top 15 player. Butler is still a stud.

Paul George did not publicly state that he only would sign with LA or Indiana.

 "Yeah, [Cousins] has flaws, but so does AB" really?

1) Yes, really.  Every player has flaws.  Bradley is routinely injured and is undersized for a 2 guard.  Those are flaws.  Demarcus Cousins had to play for the Kings and he didn't like it, I can forgive that, I doubt you would want to work for a terrible company for 4-7 years.  He's a 3 time All Star averaging 28 points, 11 rebounds and 4.5 assists a game.  His talent blows AB away.  Do you think AB or Ibaka is more of an asset than DMC?

2) Re-read my post.  I said PG13 wanted to play for LA or Indy, you're the one who said 'only sign with'.  Do you dispute that Indy demanded a boatload for him?  Because that was my main point about him, you're arguing a tangent. 

3) Being in the West absolutely matters, AD plays the West teams 4 times a year and the East teams twice, Jimmy Butler gets to feast on the far inferior from top to bottom East.  That obviously affects win loss records, to say nothing of JB's superior team roster prior to the trade deadline.  You're arguing that playing tough teams more often is the same as playing them less?

4) Butler was the best player on the Bulls team but he hardly carried them.  You mentioned the Cavs series: in that series Rose outscored Butler, his assist ratio was more than triple Butler's, his defensive rating was higher, and his rebounding percentage was higher.  So if you have a sidekick whose performance is on par with a top 15 player like Butler, it makes sense you'd be a good team.  We have one top 15 player with no D, and it looks like we'll eclipse their win total.  And you still didn't address my main point there, that the Bulls asked for just a ton for JB.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2015-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-cavaliers.html

So in summary, you avoided my central thesis, that we won't get more than Ibaka if we traded AB, and instead picked out minor tangential stuff.  What is your opinion about the main point?
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

 

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