Author Topic: So VP Mike Pence was using an AOL email for State business & was actually hacked  (Read 3007 times)

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Offline jpotter33

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But that fact doesn't make one any less of a hypocrite or a biased partisan if one also wasn't doing the same with Obama and the left, and with the same amount of passion and outrage, too.
That's not really true.

If a Democrat and a Republican do the same thing and I say the Democrat is good and the Republican is bad, then I'm a hypocrite. But if I say a Republican is bad without acknowledging the democrat at all, there's no hypocrisy there. I have simply given my opinion on a specific situation.

True, for a one time thing. But if one continually criticizes Democrats, hundreds of times, while defending and/or turning a blind eye to similar issues with Republicans, it's probably fair to draw some inferences about their motivations.

That applies to the media and our elected officials as much as it does to any particular hypocrite on a basketball blog.  It's all part of the same problem, though. Political partisans may as well be WWE fans. They hate Steve Austin when he's a heel, and cheer him when he's a hero, just like partisans make their decisions based upon who is in power.

To further this point, though the act itself may not be hypocritical, the motivation and preferences behind it are.

If you're more willing and likely to criticize Republicans over an issue than Democrats, though simply making a statement of criticism isn't hypocritical and inconsistent in itself, the motivations and preferences behind it are. And that's the problem I've been pointing out.

I don't think that even you, Big, can argue that those types of motivations and preferences are behind many of the posts here, both liberal and conservative.
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Offline jpotter33

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As for Trump's presidency so far, I can't really comment. After following the presidential race and aftermath pretty heavily, I had to have a break. Further, I've been pretty busy focusing on finishing my dissertation in time for my postdoc to follow things too closely. And that's been exacerbated by the fact that I can't find any real objective media source that presents an objective look at the issues without significant bias or ulterior motives, both for and against the current administration.
The issue is that this President and a good deal of his Administration have been an unmitigated disaster so far. Of course, many conservatives take this conclusion as an indication of "liberal bias". I'm afraid there's little to be done about that -- unless of course you don't mind dealing in "alternative facts". With this in mind, I find BBC and PBS are pretty good.

I recommend not compromising with the dissertation. I took a full-time job after my prospectus was approved, and thus spent two years trying to complete what should have been a three months' worth of work.

Like I said, I can't really say since I'm not really up to date on everything that has happened with say Flynn, the Russian stuff, and Sessions. There are certain things that I certainly agree have been terrible, such as the prohibiting of certain media organizations from coming to WH briefings and the numerous blatantly untrue/hyperbolic tweets and quotes from Trump.

However, I also feel like there have been many things that have been completely overblown or non-issues, too, like the immigration ban. Though there certainly were issues with it, I think much of the backlash was completely overblown over a temporary ban (that actually looks to be within his power) that aimed at making vetting techniques more efficient. Also, half of Twitter flipped out the other day because Conway sat on the WH couch with her knees, and several news organizations actually reported on this and made it "news." It's stuff like this that makes me really question the "outrage" of much of what you see out of the mainstream media, especially sources like The Huffington Post, Slate, Daily KOS, etc.

But surely you can't deny that quite a few of the major media sources have rather distinct liberal slants, especially with the current administration? And that's not to say that right-wing stuff like Fox News is any better, because you have to wade their conservative bias just as much, if not more, than many of the more left-leaning organizations.
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Offline Big333223

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But that fact doesn't make one any less of a hypocrite or a biased partisan if one also wasn't doing the same with Obama and the left, and with the same amount of passion and outrage, too.
That's not really true.

If a Democrat and a Republican do the same thing and I say the Democrat is good and the Republican is bad, then I'm a hypocrite. But if I say a Republican is bad without acknowledging the democrat at all, there's no hypocrisy there. I have simply given my opinion on a specific situation.

True, for a one time thing. But if one continually criticizes Democrats, hundreds of times, while defending and/or turning a blind eye to similar issues with Republicans, it's probably fair to draw some inferences about their motivations.

That applies to the media and our elected officials as much as it does to any particular hypocrite on a basketball blog.  It's all part of the same problem, though. Political partisans may as well be WWE fans. They hate Steve Austin when he's a heel, and cheer him when he's a hero, just like partisans make their decisions based upon who is in power.

To further this point, though the act itself may not be hypocritical, the motivation and preferences behind it are.

If you're more willing and likely to criticize Republicans over an issue than Democrats, though simply making a statement of criticism isn't hypocritical and inconsistent in itself, the motivations and preferences behind it are. And that's the problem I've been pointing out.

I don't think that even you, Big, can argue that those types of motivations and preferences are behind many of the posts here, both liberal and conservative.
I completely agree with both points.

I would also say, though, that all of this applies to accusations of hypocrisy themselves, or at least should. But it feels like those accusing others of something less than intellectual purity only do so when it serves their own "team's" ends. I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

Offline Roy H.

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.


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Offline nickagneta

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I think this whole Pence email whatever is a bunch of nothing, probably promoted to the hilt by the DNC and left leaning media. But I also though the whole Hillary email fiasco was a bunch of nothing promoted by the RNC and right leaning media and was made into a gigantic deal during the election to sway massive amounts of voters.

Well what was good for the goose is good for the gander. Republicans shouldn't really get angry when Dems and left leaning media turn this issue into a circus after what they did to Hillary.

Honestly, I think it distracts from the more important issue of exactly what did or did not happen between the Russians and the Trump campaign. There is a lot of smoke there and an independent investigation should really be started. To much coincidental occurances are starting to add up that should be worrisome to ALL Americans. Red or blue.

Offline Big333223

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.
Lovely, but that misses the point I was making.

You consistently try to bend conversations criticizing Trump toward Democrats who you think have done similar things in the past and you do so in the name of calling out hypocrisy. But I've never seen you divert a conversation criticizing Democrats no matter how hypocritical the criticism.

Offline Roy H.

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.
Lovely, but that misses the point I was making.

You consistently try to bend conversations criticizing Trump toward Democrats who you think have done similar things in the past and you do so in the name of calling out hypocrisy. But I've never seen you divert a conversation criticizing Democrats no matter how hypocritical the criticism.

No, I point out silly, blatantly partisan, unwarranted criticism of Trump when there were similar issues that others remained silent on.

If the less than a handful of conservatives on here behave in a blatantly hypocritical manner, I'll be happy to point that out. I already do that when conservatives go against their values, such as spending like drunken sailors under GWB. The fact is that we've been under Democrat control for eight years, so most examples in the recent past will be a compare / contrast between the two most recent administrations.


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Offline Roy H.

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Here's an article that captures my POV: What Pence did was sketchy (if legal), but it's different in kind from the Clinton scandal.

http://hotair.com/archives/2017/03/03/just-a-reminder-mike-pence-using-private-email-as-governor-doesnt-make-him-hillary-clinton/


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Offline jpotter33

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But that fact doesn't make one any less of a hypocrite or a biased partisan if one also wasn't doing the same with Obama and the left, and with the same amount of passion and outrage, too.
That's not really true.

If a Democrat and a Republican do the same thing and I say the Democrat is good and the Republican is bad, then I'm a hypocrite. But if I say a Republican is bad without acknowledging the democrat at all, there's no hypocrisy there. I have simply given my opinion on a specific situation.

True, for a one time thing. But if one continually criticizes Democrats, hundreds of times, while defending and/or turning a blind eye to similar issues with Republicans, it's probably fair to draw some inferences about their motivations.

That applies to the media and our elected officials as much as it does to any particular hypocrite on a basketball blog.  It's all part of the same problem, though. Political partisans may as well be WWE fans. They hate Steve Austin when he's a heel, and cheer him when he's a hero, just like partisans make their decisions based upon who is in power.

To further this point, though the act itself may not be hypocritical, the motivation and preferences behind it are.

If you're more willing and likely to criticize Republicans over an issue than Democrats, though simply making a statement of criticism isn't hypocritical and inconsistent in itself, the motivations and preferences behind it are. And that's the problem I've been pointing out.

I don't think that even you, Big, can argue that those types of motivations and preferences are behind many of the posts here, both liberal and conservative.
I completely agree with both points.

I would also say, though, that all of this applies to accusations of hypocrisy themselves, or at least should. But it feels like those accusing others of something less than intellectual purity only do so when it serves their own "team's" ends. I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

Oh, for sure. But if you notice, I've been fairly consistent in my rants today in arguing that this hypocrisy applies both toward the left and right. Hell, in a post to Koz I even said that Fox News is just as biased, if not more, than the other major media routes. So I've been pretty fair in my criticism toward both sides.

Furthermore, I know for a fact that I've called out several more conservative posters a time or two for hypocrisy, specifically on the issues of Islam versus Christianity (I think it dealt with the proposed Muslim Ban when Trump was campaigning) and Trump's authoritarian nature versus Obama's executive overreach.

And similarly, I think Roy does a fairly good job of being objective, even if he is unequivocally the most vocal conservative on the forum. I think the fact that you see more claims of hypocrisy toward the left than the right on here is due solely to the fact that there's a great deal more arguments from the left than the right on here. If there were more conservative arguments on here, I'm positive there would be more bouts of hypocrisy and illogical reasoning, especially due to the fact that posters have various differing levels of analytical and reasoning skills and might not recognize certain fallacies in their logic.

EDIT: And to be honest without trying to call anyone out, I think some of the partisan conservative posters with bad arguments that would be subject to hypocrisy claims have moved on from posting on the forum and/or have been banned from the current events section.
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Offline blink

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.
Lovely, but that misses the point I was making.

You consistently try to bend conversations criticizing Trump toward Democrats who you think have done similar things in the past and you do so in the name of calling out hypocrisy. But I've never seen you divert a conversation criticizing Democrats no matter how hypocritical the criticism.

No, I point out silly, blatantly partisan, unwarranted criticism of Trump when there were similar issues that others remained silent on.

If the less than a handful of conservatives on here behave in a blatantly hypocritical manner, I'll be happy to point that out. I already do that when conservatives go against their values, such as spending like drunken sailors under GWB. The fact is that we've been under Democrat control for eight years, so most examples in the recent past will be a compare / contrast between the two most recent administrations.

I agree with Big.  You may think you are the champion against hypocrisy but I think that you are just as much of a knee jerk reactionary as the people you and jpotter are complaining about.

Offline Vermont Green

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I think some perspective is being lost here.  Hilary Clinton had a private email account and server to allow her to keep her private emails separate from government business emails.  Over the course of 4 years and who knows how many emails, investigations revealed that a few emails did have what turned out to be ambiguous markings making them confidential.  I don't see a big problem with this.  My man Bernie Sanders had the guts to say who cares about the dam emails.

Now we find out that Mr. Religious Right Pence had a personal email account but it is completely different than Hilary's private email account according to Mr. RR Pence.  The existence of a private email account does not bother me but I feel the statement that it is completely different than Hilary's email to be very disingenuous.

In his first speech as a VP candidate, he said "I am a Christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third".  I guess he is an american no higher than fourth.  Would a Christian really spend all that time criticizing someone about having a private email account while all along having a private email account?  Did he ever say, "look, I have a private email account too but mine is totally different..."  No.

And another thing that bugs me about Pence when he says "I am a Christian first", how would it have been received if Mitt Romney said "I am a Mormon first" or if Bernie said "I am a Jew first", or heaven forbid if some candidate said "I am a Muslim first"?  Why is it OK to any elected official to put their religion above all else?  Some how it is admired when a Christian says this (even though anyone who would say this almost by definition probably doesn't have truly Christian intentions) but if someone from another religion said it it would be political suicide. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:59:33 PM by Vermont Green »

Offline Roy H.

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.
Lovely, but that misses the point I was making.

You consistently try to bend conversations criticizing Trump toward Democrats who you think have done similar things in the past and you do so in the name of calling out hypocrisy. But I've never seen you divert a conversation criticizing Democrats no matter how hypocritical the criticism.

No, I point out silly, blatantly partisan, unwarranted criticism of Trump when there were similar issues that others remained silent on.

If the less than a handful of conservatives on here behave in a blatantly hypocritical manner, I'll be happy to point that out. I already do that when conservatives go against their values, such as spending like drunken sailors under GWB. The fact is that we've been under Democrat control for eight years, so most examples in the recent past will be a compare / contrast between the two most recent administrations.

I agree with Big.  You may think you are the champion against hypocrisy but I think that you are just as much of a knee jerk reactionary as the people you and jpotter are complaining about.

Lol. The knee jerk reactionary that calls out both sides.

Perhaps the truth just hurts.


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Offline blink

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.
Lovely, but that misses the point I was making.

You consistently try to bend conversations criticizing Trump toward Democrats who you think have done similar things in the past and you do so in the name of calling out hypocrisy. But I've never seen you divert a conversation criticizing Democrats no matter how hypocritical the criticism.

No, I point out silly, blatantly partisan, unwarranted criticism of Trump when there were similar issues that others remained silent on.

If the less than a handful of conservatives on here behave in a blatantly hypocritical manner, I'll be happy to point that out. I already do that when conservatives go against their values, such as spending like drunken sailors under GWB. The fact is that we've been under Democrat control for eight years, so most examples in the recent past will be a compare / contrast between the two most recent administrations.

I agree with Big.  You may think you are the champion against hypocrisy but I think that you are just as much of a knee jerk reactionary as the people you and jpotter are complaining about.

Lol. The knee jerk reactionary that calls out both sides.

Perhaps the truth just hurts.

You aren't the leader in calling out Trump for anything.  It is almost the exact opposite since the presidential campaign started. 

Offline jpotter33

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I think some perspective is being lost here.  Hilary Clinton had a private email account and server to allow her to keep her private emails separate from government business emails.  Over the course of 4 years and who knows how many emails, investigations revealed that a few emails did have what turned out to be ambiguous markings making them confidential.  I don't see a big problem with this.  My man Bernie Sanders had the guts to say who care about the dam emails.

Now we find out that Mr. Religious Right Pence had a personal email account but it is completely different than Hilary's private email account according to Mr. RR Pence.  The existence of a private email account does not bother me but I feel the statement that it is completely different than Hilary's email to be very disingenuous.

In his first speech as a VP candidate, he said "I am a Christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third".  I guess he is an american no higher than fourth.  Would a Christian really spend all that time criticizing someone about having a private email account while all along having a private email account?  Did he ever say, "look, I have a private email account too but mine is totally different..."  No.

And another think that bugs me about Pence when he says "I am a Christian first", how would it have been received if Mitt Romney said "I am a Mormon first" or if Bernie said "I am a Jew first", or heaven forbid if some candidate said "I am a Muslim first"?  Why is it OK to any elected official to put their religion above all else?  Some how it is admired when a Christian says this (even though anyone who would say this almost by definition probably doesn't have truly Christian intentions) but if someone from another religion said it it would be political suicide.


I'm in complete agreement with this, even being someone who identifies himself as being a part of the Christian faith.

Advocating for Christianity in this way is contrary to the liberal roots that our country was founded on. There certainly are Judeo-Christian values that are part of the very basis of our country, but honestly they largely fail in comparison to the values of classical liberalism and pluralism that also underlie our country's foundation. By saying this, he ultimately is saying that his faith will get in the way of him serving his country appropriately, but like you said, since it's Christianity it's tolerated.

What's more, most of the people that identify as "Christians" today are hardly true followers of Christ. I can't tell you how many of my  more conservative friends vehemently defend religious (read: Christian) rights, yet they're xenophobic alcoholics that are a far cry from the principle of "brotherly love" that categorizes Christianity.
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Offline Roy H.

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I'd be pretty shocked if someone complaining about the Clinton Foundation was met with a response from Roy about Trump's foundation's corruption.

You haven't read enough of my posts if you think I'm shy about criticizing Trump. Since being elected, I've criticized him and his Cabinet numerous times. I'm glad he's President over Hillary Clinton, but that like saying I'd rather be shot in the groin rather than the head.

About the only times I think I've praised him are for the Nikki Haley and Neil Gorsuch nominations. I really liked his speech the other night, too. Overall, though, I would prefer most Republicans to Trump. I'd take him over perhaps Susan Collins, but that's about it.
Lovely, but that misses the point I was making.

You consistently try to bend conversations criticizing Trump toward Democrats who you think have done similar things in the past and you do so in the name of calling out hypocrisy. But I've never seen you divert a conversation criticizing Democrats no matter how hypocritical the criticism.

No, I point out silly, blatantly partisan, unwarranted criticism of Trump when there were similar issues that others remained silent on.

If the less than a handful of conservatives on here behave in a blatantly hypocritical manner, I'll be happy to point that out. I already do that when conservatives go against their values, such as spending like drunken sailors under GWB. The fact is that we've been under Democrat control for eight years, so most examples in the recent past will be a compare / contrast between the two most recent administrations.

I agree with Big.  You may think you are the champion against hypocrisy but I think that you are just as much of a knee jerk reactionary as the people you and jpotter are complaining about.

Lol. The knee jerk reactionary that calls out both sides.

Perhaps the truth just hurts.

You aren't the leader in calling out Trump for anything.  It is almost the exact opposite since the presidential campaign started.

You have no idea what you're talking about. People can be critical of Trump without 1) being unfair, 2) being blatant hypocrites, or 3) being part of the lunatic left wing fringe.


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