Author Topic: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?  (Read 2900 times)

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Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2017, 02:44:36 AM »

Offline tankcity!

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What a difference a few months makes on this board?  Early this year, Saric was a C Level prospect at best, now people would give up Bradley in an instant for him.

And yet a few months of Noel getting traded for nothing and Okafor's value diminishing doesn't change anything from your perspective. It was like we never discussed those players value on this board
They didn't "lose" Teague -- they got rid of him because Schroder made him redundant. Other than that, they replaced Horford with Howard. Injuries or no injuries, our roster is not any more superior than it was last season. Probably less.

-Koz

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2017, 03:51:26 AM »

Offline Androslav

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this takes the cake
-insulting and embarrassing to celtic fans,

I think every single person on CB would keep AB if he would sign a team-friendly deal, it's just that many fear the $75M+/yr that he, IT, and Smart are proposed to make next summer. This is a pick 2 out 3 exercise.

By trading AB for a guy like Saric, you are able to comfortably sign a max FA like Hayward and maybe even conjure up enough money to keep KO. Three more years of solid production from a Brad-type guy for peanuts at a position of need is why people are even bringing up such a deal, not because we don't actually want AB on the team.

Frankly, it's the same reason Crowder is basically untouchable right now.

Just want to correct a few things. Trading AB for Saric would not free up enough cap space to sign Hayward. In that scenario you'd either have to trade away Rozier as well or not keep KO. That's without even considering the Nets pick being above #3.

Also it's a fallacy that we can't afford to keep all 3. There are so many things between now and then which could influence that. Not least what we do with our cap space this summer. Or that the guys might well take less than the market rate to play for a contender. Even if we pay them all market rate we can still keep them, it would just limit what we could spend on our big men.

Do you mind estimating the numbers for me on why we wouldn't be able to afford Hayward, Saric, KO, and the BKN pick if trading Bradley?

Avery's salary next year is approximately $8.8M.
KO's qualifying offer is $4.3M.
Saric's salary is $2.4M

KO and Saric seem to easily fit in Avery's at $6.7M. I was under the impression that we would be able to sign Hayward to a max contract (with Avery) if we got the #3 or #4 pick in the draft, but it got a little hazier if we got #1 or #2. I would think that $2M we are clearing from Avery's salary into KO/Saric would be enough to cover that(?)

Is KO's QO not correct? Is it listed at that amount, but actually a good deal greater?
The main point of confusion is the QO. You're right it is $4.3m, but the associated cap hold is actually $7.7m.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2017/1/15/14281028/celtics-salary-cap-update-new-cba-edition

Saltlover wrote an article on our cap space this summer, really good read to get the basics of it. In the article he assumes the Nets pick lands at #3, we would be $700k short of the space needed for Hayward if we waived all our FAs. If you add in KO we would be ~$8.4m short. Trading Bradley for draft considerations would clear the space but trading him for Saric would still leave us  ~$2m short of the needed cap space.

Even dropping to the 4th pick doesn't clear enough space on its own. If we are to sign Hayward this summer then it will likely need Rozier to be moved or Yab to remain overseas another year. It's going to be hard to make the room for a top tier FA, so much so that I'm questioning it a bit. If we instead renegotiate Isaiah using the cap space we could keep our current core together. It could also have the added benefit of increasing the trade value of some of our guys if we decided to hand the reins over to the young guys in a few years time

Sundance has the cap stuff figured out!  Nicely done!

I will say that if a Bradley-Saric swap were offered over the summer, and we had Hayward waiting to sign, I would be quite in favor of such a move, even if it meant letting Olynyk walk.  It would be a lot easier to afford maxing IT and keeping Smart in 2018 if the team were paying $2.5 and $3.5 million in the 2018 and 2019 seasons than Olynyk a good deal more ($10 mil a year? $12 mil? $15 mil?)  It would be nice to find a vet big (who could play the 4) at the room exception so that Saric didn't have too big a load, and while we wait for Zizic and Yab to germinate.

But the starting lineup could be IT/Hayward//Crowder/Saric/Horford, the closing lineup IT/Smart/Hayward/Crowder/Horford, with Brown, the Brooklyn pick, Rozier, Zizic, and ideally that vet big rounding out the rotation.  It'd be a taxpaying team in 2018, but the tax might be near the upper limit of what the team would be willing to pay.  Keeping Olynyk around could make affording Smart in 2018 difficult, so, yes, sign me up for a Bradley-Saric swap, even if it costs Olynyk next season.

Until Saltlover (our cap guy) confirms it, a lot of members act like it is blasphemous to discuss ABs future. Guys, you can think on your own. It is not that difficult to find a way to want a born winner that is outplaying his contract value by 10 times. I root for the Celtics, not just for a specific player. In Europe we have a say: "Club stays, players go".
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 04:07:12 AM by Androslav »

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2017, 07:47:22 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Thanks Sundance and SL for the clarification. I wish sites were more specific with QO and cap holds since the cap hold in this scenario is what really matters for KO.

Yeah, the cap sites are imprecise with this, although to be fair, it's difficult to display both relevant numbers in a single table.  And if they made it too easy to figure out, no one would care what I had to say!  8)

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2017, 08:33:37 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Androslav that does a disservice to a lot of European clubs. Not sure if you meant Basketball clubs specifically, in which case I wouldn't know, but football clubs and rugby clubs around the continent regularly herald players who transcend the club.

Being a Newcastle United fan we have Jackie Milburn and Alan Shearer who both have statues outside the club, their are immortal in folk lore, essentially part of the fabric of the club. Sir Alex Ferguson at Man Utd is another example, or Buffon for Juventus.

I understand that Bradley is not at that kind of status but it's fair to say that he is underrated by many. He is also a locker room leader which is important, just look at Philly to tell you why...
"My bold prediction for this year is that Rozier averages less than 15 mins per game, doesn't play the point primarily in that time and gets traded before the year is over"
-TheSundanceKid October 14, 2016, 07:01:02 AM

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2017, 08:38:18 AM »

Offline Moranis

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What a difference a few months makes on this board?  Early this year, Saric was a C Level prospect at best, now people would give up Bradley in an instant for him.

And yet a few months of Noel getting traded for nothing and Okafor's value diminishing doesn't change anything from your perspective. It was like we never discussed those players value on this board
Noel never had much value in a trade given he is was an impending restricted free agent who many believed was going to be seeking (and might very well get) a contract in the 20 million a year range.  I've been pretty consistent on that position. 

Okafor wasn't traded so no one has any idea what his value actually is.  Supposedly Chicago tried to trade Mirotic for him which Philly rebuked, Mirotic is a quality NBA player, not a world beater or anything but, but not a bum either. 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2017, 06:48:05 AM »

Offline jay

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So the trade would need to be AB, KO, and Rozier for Saric and Henderson?  Henderson's final year is non guarenteed like Zeller.

Waive/renounce Zeller, Amir, Jerebko, Henderson, Young, Green.


Saric is basically the replacement for KO. The thought is to go after a free agent (Hayward) for max money instead of giving AB a big contract next offseason. Also, would not have to pay KO big money or watch him walk for nothing.

How soon would we have to pay Saric big money and how much would he cost?

I like the trade even if we have to throw in a 2019 pick or our own 2018. There's just not going to be money or minutes for all of these guys. Bradley is great but Fultz/Ball have the potential to be even better and Hayward would bring that second elite scoring option that we really need.
@bigjasonjones

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2017, 07:37:54 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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So the trade would need to be AB, KO, and Rozier for Saric and Henderson?  Henderson's final year is non guarenteed like Zeller.

Waive/renounce Zeller, Amir, Jerebko, Henderson, Young, Green.


Saric is basically the replacement for KO. The thought is to go after a free agent (Hayward) for max money instead of giving AB a big contract next offseason. Also, would not have to pay KO big money or watch him walk for nothing.

How soon would we have to pay Saric big money and how much would he cost?

I like the trade even if we have to throw in a 2019 pick or our own 2018. There's just not going to be money or minutes for all of these guys. Bradley is great but Fultz/Ball have the potential to be even better and Hayward would bring that second elite scoring option that we really need.
Saric is on the 1st year of his rookie contract so he's got 3 more cheap years.  In 9 of his last 10 games, he's scored at least 18pts and had at least 10 rebs in 5 of them.  Maybe the best thing for the Sixers is that he's played in all 61 games so no health worries.  So there's no way the Sixers would trade Saric for a 1 year rental of AB. 

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2017, 07:48:45 AM »

Offline timpiker

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Why the need to trade Bradley?  The only reason I can think of is what he might command on his next salary.  But, think about it.  Bradley has turned into an amazing player.  He's a Celtic.  He's perfect.  Trade him for a bona fide star, maybe.  But if not, sign him.  I am confident Wyc and the owners will pay luxury taxes IF we are a contender.

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2017, 08:25:50 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Thanks Sundance and SL for the clarification. I wish sites were more specific with QO and cap holds since the cap hold in this scenario is what really matters for KO.

Yeah, the cap sites are imprecise with this, although to be fair, it's difficult to display both relevant numbers in a single table.  And if they made it too easy to figure out, no one would care what I had to say!  8)

Yeah, I am not sure why you with your vast knowledge of the CBA and salary cap (among many other things) and foulweatherfan with his political cognition even put up with us underlings here at CB; but we are grateful. Please keep up the good work, but we understand if you decide to move on to a bigger and brighter future  ;D

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2017, 09:24:02 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
So there's no way the Sixers would trade Saric for a 1 year rental of AB.

I agree TP,

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2017, 03:46:49 PM »

Offline RAAAAAAAANDY

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Those questioning Saric couldn't have been watching him much, especially since they traded Ilyasova, giving Saric big minutes.  Since that trade Saric has been averaging close to 20/10/5, and he along with Embid, Simmons, and another top pick this year, give 6'ers a great future....IMO, probably much better than our future core!  Along with Pels and Lakers, they'll be one of our future nemesis, besides the already dominant Warriors, Spurs, and Cavs.
Would quickly do the AB for Saric trade, but 6'ers laugh at that one!

One question though.   When do you predict Philly turns the corner and sneaks into the playoffs?   They still feel at least 2-3 years away from that.     

Wut? If they move Okafor to the back of the rotation they'll probably make it next year.

3 of their projected starters have played something like 35 games combined this year and they are a whopping 6 games out.

I don't think penciling in Embiid impact for more than half a season is really something you can count on at this point. But Simmons and Bayless are more likely than not to play and bump out the Sergio Rodriguez types of the world from the rotation.

Not to mention possibly two top 5 picks, minimum on one in/around the top 7. And a ton of cap space.

And the teams above them aren't exactly juggernauts.

Their 1st, probably 2nd, 5th and maybe 7th or 8th (Bayless) best players are all injured right now. They traded their 3rd best guy for peanuts at the deadline. And they're still 5-5 and in their last 10.

You pretty clearlydon't really have an informed opinion on the matter.

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2017, 04:21:06 PM »

Offline bogg

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Those questioning Saric couldn't have been watching him much, especially since they traded Ilyasova, giving Saric big minutes.  Since that trade Saric has been averaging close to 20/10/5, and he along with Embid, Simmons, and another top pick this year, give 6'ers a great future....IMO, probably much better than our future core!  Along with Pels and Lakers, they'll be one of our future nemesis, besides the already dominant Warriors, Spurs, and Cavs.
Would quickly do the AB for Saric trade, but 6'ers laugh at that one!

One question though.   When do you predict Philly turns the corner and sneaks into the playoffs?   They still feel at least 2-3 years away from that.     

Wut? If they move Okafor to the back of the rotation they'll probably make it next year.

3 of their projected starters have played something like 35 games combined this year and they are a whopping 6 games out.

I don't think penciling in Embiid impact for more than half a season is really something you can count on at this point. But Simmons and Bayless are more likely than not to play and bump out the Sergio Rodriguez types of the world from the rotation.

Not to mention possibly two top 5 picks, minimum on one in/around the top 7. And a ton of cap space.

And the teams above them aren't exactly juggernauts.

Their 1st, probably 2nd, 5th and maybe 7th or 8th (Bayless) best players are all injured right now. They traded their 3rd best guy for peanuts at the deadline. And they're still 5-5 and in their last 10.

You pretty clearlydon't really have an informed opinion on the matter.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they're a lock for the postseason next year. There's still a lot for them to figure out rotation-wise and they'll probably be leaning pretty heavily on rookies next season as well. If everything breaks right they could wind up in the conversation, especially with a sub-.500 record getting you the 8 seed as often as not, but someone thinking they're 2-3 years away (keep in mind, two years away is season after next) is far from being wildly outlandish.

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2017, 04:46:33 PM »

Offline jay

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What about a similar trade to Phoenix?


Bradley/Olynyk/2019 pick for:

Marquise Chriss and the non-guaranteed contract of Barbosa?

I know Booker plays SG, but Bradley and Booker could coexist in a small ball lineup.  I like Chriss's defensive potential better than Saric anyway. Would Phoenix go for something like that?
@bigjasonjones

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2017, 05:10:01 PM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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What about a similar trade to Phoenix?


Bradley/Olynyk/2019 pick for:

Marquise Chriss and the non-guaranteed contract of Barbosa?

I know Booker plays SG, but Bradley and Booker could coexist in a small ball lineup.  I like Chriss's defensive potential better than Saric anyway. Would Phoenix go for something like that?

They wouldn't. They are very high on Chriss, and I understand why.

Re: Bradley for Saric this Offseason?
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2017, 05:26:26 PM »

Offline jambr380

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What about a similar trade to Phoenix?


Bradley/Olynyk/2019 pick for:

Marquise Chriss and the non-guaranteed contract of Barbosa?

I know Booker plays SG, but Bradley and Booker could coexist in a small ball lineup.  I like Chriss's defensive potential better than Saric anyway. Would Phoenix go for something like that?

These are the types of options Danny will be exploring this summer (minus KO since he is a RFA) as to not lose Bradley for nothing.

AB should absolutely be worth a mid-lottery level pick to the team trading for him as they should feel quite comfortable paying for his next contract.

TP for an AB trade idea I haven't heard or thought about before.