Bradley for Saric this Offseason?

[jambr380]

this takes the cake
-insulting and embarrassing to celtic fans,

I think every single person on CB would keep AB if he would sign a team-friendly deal, it's just that many fear the $75M+/yr that he, IT, and Smart are proposed to make next summer. This is a pick 2 out 3 exercise.

By trading AB for a guy like Saric, you are able to comfortably sign a max FA like Hayward and maybe even conjure up enough money to keep KO. Three more years of solid production from a Brad-type guy for peanuts at a position of need is why people are even bringing up such a deal, not because we don't actually want AB on the team.

Frankly, it's the same reason Crowder is basically untouchable right now.

Just want to correct a few things. Trading AB for Saric would not free up enough cap space to sign Hayward. In that scenario you'd either have to trade away Rozier as well or not keep KO. That's without even considering the Nets pick being above #3.

Also it's a fallacy that we can't afford to keep all 3. There are so many things between now and then which could influence that. Not least what we do with our cap space this summer. Or that the guys might well take less than the market rate to play for a contender. Even if we pay them all market rate we can still keep them, it would just limit what we could spend on our big men.

Do you mind estimating the numbers for me on why we wouldn't be able to afford Hayward, Saric, KO, and the BKN pick if trading Bradley?

Avery's salary next year is approximately $8.8M.
KO's qualifying offer is $4.3M.
Saric's salary is $2.4M

KO and Saric seem to easily fit in Avery's at $6.7M. I was under the impression that we would be able to sign Hayward to a max contract (with Avery) if we got the #3 or #4 pick in the draft, but it got a little hazier if we got #1 or #2. I would think that $2M we are clearing from Avery's salary into KO/Saric would be enough to cover that(?)

Is KO's QO not correct? Is it listed at that amount, but actually a good deal greater?

[Ilikesports17]

this takes the cake
-insulting and embarrassing to celtic fans,

Please.

It's an idea that makes plenty of sense. You have 3 guards up for extensions in a year and there's a very good chance your top 3 pick is gonna be a guard in June. Add to that the fact that ainge for some reason loves Rozier and it is very reasonable to think about trading one of those guards.

AB is gonna want to get paid and Dario is young, cheap, on an extended deal and he fits our culture perfectly.

More likely we draft Jackson, Tatum or Isaac than Ball or Fultz. This is why I find your case unpursuasive.

OK, so you will grant that in the scenario where we draft Bal or Fultz, this trade makes sense?

Do you really believe Ainge will be willing to pay his backcourt 70 million a year when he likes Rozier and has a gaping hole at the power forward position?

I dont see it.

Also, Ive got no problem with people who disagree with the trade or my logic. I completely see where the other side comes from. I completely get the logic behind wanting to keep a guy who shoots 40% from deep can defend Kyrie and Steph as well as anyone on earth and is a consummate professional.

I do mind, when people call the idea insulting and embarassing.

[jmen788]

1000% no.   

AB is the heart and soul of a very solid Celtics team.    Look at the league these days.  Never had there been so many elite pg's.   Can't ascend anywhere without going thru a Kyrie, Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Wall type killer. 

No one is even close to AB with ability to defend small/quicks.  I love smart, but he's more of a wing specialist, while AB time and time again proves his worth against the best of the best. 

I just don't get the apathy towards competing around here.  Every idea I see proposed is a 'let's punt in first down' kind of move.   

We already outsourced the tank.    Appreciate what you have!   What Ainge is doing, this incremental improvement plan, is fairly unprecedented.    AB is the core of that, the guy setting the example for Smart, Brown and whomever BK drafts for us next.   

Absolutely cannnot overlook the human element of team building.  Video game trades don't work in real life.

Bradley is hurt half the time! You gotta send him out while his value is high. He can't guard a chair if he can't play. I get that he had a great game defensively last night, but he will cost 25 million per year and is hurt half the time. It's too much of a gamble.

[jmen788]

A guy like Bradley makes you win titles. He is the best player in the whole NBA to stop the Curries, Hardens or Irvings out there. I wouldn't trade him for Saric, as much as I like the Croatian.

Some of you are going to tell me some bad things  , but I think he may be more important than Isaiah in a close, hard, even dirty, playoff series. Defense gets more prominence from April onwards.

Again, he can't win titles with his D if he is hurt. He just has a good game so the green kool aid homerism is pretty intense right now, but let's just hope he stays health the rest of the year. If we end up drafting Fultz that makes Bradley that much more expendable. Even if we don't, we have Rozier, Marcus, IT... we have to think long term. I see no reason why Bradley for Saric would make us less of a contender, that kid is a stud.

[Celtics4ever]

Again, he can't win titles with his D if he is hurt. He just has a good game so the green kool aid homerism is pretty intense right now

I think  a similar mindset can be said for those who have a fondness for Europlayers who are excelling and magically think teams will give them away...

It is not homerism but it is just as tainted albeit in the opposite direction.

[jmen788]

Again, he can't win titles with his D if he is hurt. He just has a good game so the green kool aid homerism is pretty intense right now

I think the same can be said for those who have a fondness for Europlayers who are excelling and magically think teams will give them away...

Not really. They wouldn't be giving him away as Bradley is a great player who fits their needs to a T. Plus they have high draft picks coming where they can get another solid 4. But okay!

[TheSundanceKid]

this takes the cake
-insulting and embarrassing to celtic fans,

I think every single person on CB would keep AB if he would sign a team-friendly deal, it's just that many fear the $75M+/yr that he, IT, and Smart are proposed to make next summer. This is a pick 2 out 3 exercise.

By trading AB for a guy like Saric, you are able to comfortably sign a max FA like Hayward and maybe even conjure up enough money to keep KO. Three more years of solid production from a Brad-type guy for peanuts at a position of need is why people are even bringing up such a deal, not because we don't actually want AB on the team.

Frankly, it's the same reason Crowder is basically untouchable right now.

Just want to correct a few things. Trading AB for Saric would not free up enough cap space to sign Hayward. In that scenario you'd either have to trade away Rozier as well or not keep KO. That's without even considering the Nets pick being above #3.

Also it's a fallacy that we can't afford to keep all 3. There are so many things between now and then which could influence that. Not least what we do with our cap space this summer. Or that the guys might well take less than the market rate to play for a contender. Even if we pay them all market rate we can still keep them, it would just limit what we could spend on our big men.

Do you mind estimating the numbers for me on why we wouldn't be able to afford Hayward, Saric, KO, and the BKN pick if trading Bradley?

Avery's salary next year is approximately $8.8M.
KO's qualifying offer is $4.3M.
Saric's salary is $2.4M

KO and Saric seem to easily fit in Avery's at $6.7M. I was under the impression that we would be able to sign Hayward to a max contract (with Avery) if we got the #3 or #4 pick in the draft, but it got a little hazier if we got #1 or #2. I would think that $2M we are clearing from Avery's salary into KO/Saric would be enough to cover that(?)

Is KO's QO not correct? Is it listed at that amount, but actually a good deal greater?

The main point of confusion is the QO. You're right it is $4.3m, but the associated cap hold is actually $7.7m.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2017/1/15/14281028/celtics-salary-cap-update-new-cba-edition

Saltlover wrote an article on our cap space this summer, really good read to get the basics of it. In the article he assumes the Nets pick lands at #3, we would be $700k short of the space needed for Hayward if we waived all our FAs. If you add in KO we would be ~$8.4m short. Trading Bradley for draft considerations would clear the space but trading him for Saric would still leave us  ~$2m short of the needed cap space.

Even dropping to the 4th pick doesn't clear enough space on its own. If we are to sign Hayward this summer then it will likely need Rozier to be moved or Yab to remain overseas another year. It's going to be hard to make the room for a top tier FA, so much so that I'm questioning it a bit. If we instead renegotiate Isaiah using the cap space we could keep our current core together. It could also have the added benefit of increasing the trade value of some of our guys if we decided to hand the reins over to the young guys in a few years time

[saltlover]

this takes the cake
-insulting and embarrassing to celtic fans,

I think every single person on CB would keep AB if he would sign a team-friendly deal, it's just that many fear the $75M+/yr that he, IT, and Smart are proposed to make next summer. This is a pick 2 out 3 exercise.

By trading AB for a guy like Saric, you are able to comfortably sign a max FA like Hayward and maybe even conjure up enough money to keep KO. Three more years of solid production from a Brad-type guy for peanuts at a position of need is why people are even bringing up such a deal, not because we don't actually want AB on the team.

Frankly, it's the same reason Crowder is basically untouchable right now.

Just want to correct a few things. Trading AB for Saric would not free up enough cap space to sign Hayward. In that scenario you'd either have to trade away Rozier as well or not keep KO. That's without even considering the Nets pick being above #3.

Also it's a fallacy that we can't afford to keep all 3. There are so many things between now and then which could influence that. Not least what we do with our cap space this summer. Or that the guys might well take less than the market rate to play for a contender. Even if we pay them all market rate we can still keep them, it would just limit what we could spend on our big men.

Do you mind estimating the numbers for me on why we wouldn't be able to afford Hayward, Saric, KO, and the BKN pick if trading Bradley?

Avery's salary next year is approximately $8.8M.
KO's qualifying offer is $4.3M.
Saric's salary is $2.4M

KO and Saric seem to easily fit in Avery's at $6.7M. I was under the impression that we would be able to sign Hayward to a max contract (with Avery) if we got the #3 or #4 pick in the draft, but it got a little hazier if we got #1 or #2. I would think that $2M we are clearing from Avery's salary into KO/Saric would be enough to cover that(?)

Is KO's QO not correct? Is it listed at that amount, but actually a good deal greater?

The main point of confusion is the QO. You're right it is $4.3m, but the associated cap hold is actually $7.7m.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2017/1/15/14281028/celtics-salary-cap-update-new-cba-edition

Saltlover wrote an article on our cap space this summer, really good read to get the basics of it. In the article he assumes the Nets pick lands at #3, we would be $700k short of the space needed for Hayward if we waived all our FAs. If you add in KO we would be ~$8.4m short. Trading Bradley for draft considerations would clear the space but trading him for Saric would still leave us  ~$2m short of the needed cap space.

Even dropping to the 4th pick doesn't clear enough space on its own. If we are to sign Hayward this summer then it will likely need Rozier to be moved or Yab to remain overseas another year. It's going to be hard to make the room for a top tier FA, so much so that I'm questioning it a bit. If we instead renegotiate Isaiah using the cap space we could keep our current core together. It could also have the added benefit of increasing the trade value of some of our guys if we decided to hand the reins over to the young guys in a few years time

Sundance has the cap stuff figured out!  Nicely done!

I will say that if a Bradley-Saric swap were offered over the summer, and we had Hayward waiting to sign, I would be quite in favor of such a move, even if it meant letting Olynyk walk.  It would be a lot easier to afford maxing IT and keeping Smart in 2018 if the team were paying $2.5 and $3.5 million in the 2018 and 2019 seasons than Olynyk a good deal more ($10 mil a year? $12 mil? $15 mil?)  It would be nice to find a vet big (who could play the 4) at the room exception so that Saric didn't have too big a load, and while we wait for Zizic and Yab to germinate.

But the starting lineup could be IT/Hayward//Crowder/Saric/Horford, the closing lineup IT/Smart/Hayward/Crowder/Horford, with Brown, the Brooklyn pick, Rozier, Zizic, and ideally that vet big rounding out the rotation.  It'd be a taxpaying team in 2018, but the tax might be near the upper limit of what the team would be willing to pay.  Keeping Olynyk around could make affording Smart in 2018 difficult, so, yes, sign me up for a Bradley-Saric swap, even if it costs Olynyk next season.

[OhioGreen]

If we COULD trade AB for Saric, and Philly would do it, AND we could convince Hayward to sign here we'd could have:

PG 6'4"  MSmart
SG 6'6"   JBrown
SF  6'8"  GHayward
PF  6'10"  DSaric
C   6"10"  AHorford

Not a great rebounding crew, but better, and all with legit size for their positions!  Good all around players with high BBIQ's.

IT for 6th man, KO, Zizic, Rozier.......maybe Nader, Yabu.....plus some spots for rooks!  Like it!

[OhioGreen]

Oops! Forgot Jae Crowder!  Nice bench though!

[Ilikesports17]

If we COULD trade AB for Saric, and Philly would do it, AND we could convince Hayward to sign here we'd could have:

PG 6'4"  MSmart
SG 6'6"   JBrown
SF  6'8"  GHayward
PF  6'10"  DSaric
C   6"10"  AHorford

Not a great rebounding crew, but better, and all with legit size for their positions!  Good all around players with high BBIQ's.

IT for 6th man, KO, Zizic, Rozier.......maybe Nader, Yabu.....plus some spots for rooks!  Like it!

you arent benching Isaiah Thomas

[jambr380]

Thanks Sundance and SL for the clarification. I wish sites were more specific with QO and cap holds since the cap hold in this scenario is what really matters for KO.

[flybono]

Not a chance

[TheSundanceKid]

Thanks Sundance and SL for the clarification. I wish sites were more specific with QO and cap holds since the cap hold in this scenario is what really matters for KO.

My go to place is basketballinsiders.com, their team salary pages tend to be pretty accurate and they have a separate table for cap holds at the end of contracts. It's not the definitive guide but it helps

[tankcity!]

Oh I love this trade idea. I think philly would do it actually. People are over rating the Colangelos. If Hinkie was GM then sure, this trade would be more difficult to achieve. However I think both sides win jn this trade. We would miss Bradley. The hope would be smart gets better at shooting, since he still isn't an efficient offensive player. Also Rozier would need to make a jump. Not sure how much a player like Fultz or Ball would help year 1. I think There is a good chance Fultz could average 18 his first year, but no way Stevens plays him enough or Let's him run the offense during his rookie season. As for Ball, he's not going to be great in his rookie season Imo. He has a long way to go, similar to brown.