Author Topic: If This Team Doesn't Make It Past The First Round, What Should Ainge Do?  (Read 7289 times)

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Offline nickagneta

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Goes without saying, but force-feeding minutes is a terrible way to develop youth.  Young players need to be 1) gradually given time to settle into a system; and 2) learn that minutes are earned, not just handed out on the basis of how high you were drafted.

Look at Smart if you want a good example of Brad's developmental philosophy.  His rookie season, his role was "defend and stand in the corner on offense."  His sophomore year, he starts getting the ball a bit more (with mixed results.)  This year he's finally getting a decent helping of primary playmaking duties, as well as having some offensive sets being drawn up for him in the post.  It's not simply a matter of his minutes increasing: his role evolves every year as well.

I expect Brown and whoever we draft this year will follow similar trajectories.  We're a team that has the luxury of being able to ease these guys into roles rather than throw them in the deep end.
TP...amazed at how many people just don't get this.

Offline oldtype

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Goes without saying, but force-feeding minutes is a terrible way to develop youth.  Young players need to be 1) gradually given time to settle into a system; and 2) learn that minutes are earned, not just handed out on the basis of how high you were drafted.

Look at Smart if you want a good example of Brad's developmental philosophy.  His rookie season, his role was "defend and stand in the corner on offense."  His sophomore year, he starts getting the ball a bit more (with mixed results.)  This year he's finally getting a decent helping of primary playmaking duties, as well as having some offensive sets being drawn up for him in the post.  It's not simply a matter of his minutes increasing: his role evolves every year as well.

I expect Brown and whoever we draft this year will follow similar trajectories.  We're a team that has the luxury of being able to ease these guys into roles rather than throw them in the deep end.
TP...amazed at how many people just don't get this.

I think a lot of people are just mad that our guys will never put up the numbers necessary to be in the RoTY conversation.  Whatever.  It's a nothing award that doesn't matter.  We'll just have to suck it up and settle for the 50 wins.


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Offline mmmmm

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Triple teaming someone implies 2 players wide open, right?

That's happening the last two weeks and we are watching the result of this.

IT4 might be too selfish with the ball. Gotta learn to distribute it especially in those circumstances!

IT4 dished out 7 assists in the ATL game.

Also, he had 24 'true scoring attempts' (either FGA or attempts that drew a foul) in this game - basically the same as his average for the season.  So it is not really the case that Isaiah was taking any more shots than usual.  He just wasn't getting clean looks and when he did, the ball couldn't seem to drop through the invisible lid on the basket.

Our problems in this game had nothing to do with being 'selfish with the ball'.

ATL game-planned to aggressively fight over picks and grab IT (and Marcus) to slow him down when coming off screens.   This is the same tactic that TOR did.  It's the same strategy as you see with defensive coverage being physical and interfering with receivers in the NFL.  You do this until the refs blow their whistles enough on you to make you stop.   In both the TOR game and especially in the ATL game, the refs had bubble gum clogging their whistles.  So ATL not only kept it up, but they got even more aggressive with the tactic.

If the refs don't call this (and make no mistake, this is a foul.  This has been very consistently called a foul all season.) then it blows up the dive action off the pick & roll because it gives the big defender and the help defender a split second extra to prepare for the dive.  Teams are going to keep doing this to the Celtics so long as refs let them.

Brad should have adjusted to this by using more double screens or calling for more play through a rolling big instead of almost always having the screener pop to become a kick-out target.  Jae, Amir, Al & Kelly combined to go 1 for 11 on threes.   The few times our bigs went to the hoop paid off.  Amir & Tyler were a combined 4 of 4 on those.

Or he should have screamed at the refs to call the [dang] game correctly.   Getting tossed once in a while wouldn't kill him.   Worked for Red and Tommy.

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Offline mmmmm

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Triple teaming someone implies 2 players wide open, right?

That's happening the last two weeks and we are watching the result of this.

IT4 might be too selfish with the ball. Gotta learn to distribute it especially in those circumstances!

Right, but what happens when no one else can make a shot despite that "great distribution". Then what?

That's what pretty much happens.

I disagree.   There isn't great distribution.  IT jacks up hero ball 3s with no one in position to rebound or drives into the lane and throws up junk hoping for a foul.  His problem is with big mobile players.  He blows by slower less mobile players but when he plays against size that can stay with him he literally hits a wall.  When he drives everyone stands still so he can remember where they were in case he decides to pass because IT is too short to see over the defenders, so if anybody cuts to the basket or moves to an open spot for a mid range or a 3 IT wont know where they are. IT has been so fixated on being the hero lately that he rarely passes when he drives, so when he does the players are taken by surprise and react slowly giving the defense time to recover.  Maybe now that his scoring streak is over he'll pass more but I doubt it. 

There are a lot of people that have gotten flamed for criticizing IT all year but really games like last night show why people are critical.   I would gladly have IT hogging the ball off the bench to the tune of 20+ a game but not on the court during crunch time.  I concede that at this time we really only have IT as a viable closing option, but JB is starting to figure things out and will be a force at the end of games by this time next year, if not sooner.  Also, Smart is starting to get his offensive game on par with his defensive game.  Really over the last 12 or so games he has been our best player.  Come this time next year I bet most people on this blog would prefer to have 6'6 Ball or 6'5 Fultz closing out the game instead of IT.

There is literally nothing in this post I agree with.

The fact that there are no other reliable crunch-time scorers on this team - Brown? WHAHAHA - is hardly Thomas' fault.

You think Ainge pursues Butler and George in a vacuum?

Good grief. The Thomas hate on this board just hit a new low.
Good post. TP

One thing to add to your disagreements
 
IT isn't ball hogging simply because he takes a lot of shots. Layups in the paint are good shots, pull up 3's when a defender goes under a screen is a good shot. Don't confuse hogging the ball with taking a lot of good shots.

When IT goes up against 2 defenders or shoots those quick and wild transition 3s , there are always better shot options

That's a designed part of Brad's offensive strategy.  You take a quick 3 as soon as possible, almost while your own team is still mostly back on the defensive end.   Not only is it the case that most of these shots are wide open, if you miss, your team is usually in great position for transition D.

Isaiah has hit on 35 of 91 threes taken in the first 6 seconds of the shot-clock this year.  That's a 38.5% 3PT% or 58% eFG%.   There are not a lot of better shot options.
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Offline Boris Badenov

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hink this whole black and white decision making that pervades this board about what direction the Celtics have to take either trade youth for stars and try to contend now or else trade off the vets and build with only youth is, quite simply, stupid. There are shades of grey and Danny is managing in that area, which is the best area to manage from.

Ainge needs to manage his cap effectively. He needs to keep the vets that are productive and who can be great influence to the youth. Develop the youth. And continue to make excellent trades that move the team forward. And he can do it slowly because he has an unprecedented pipeline to elite draft picks for the next couple of years.

He can have his cake and eat it too, unlike just about any other franchise in the association.

Agreed. TP.

Goes without saying, but force-feeding minutes is a terrible way to develop youth.  Young players need to be 1) gradually given time to settle into a system; and 2) learn that minutes are earned, not just handed out on the basis of how high you were drafted.

Look at Smart if you want a good example of Brad's developmental philosophy.  His rookie season, his role was "defend and stand in the corner on offense."  His sophomore year, he starts getting the ball a bit more (with mixed results.)  This year he's finally getting a decent helping of primary playmaking duties, as well as having some offensive sets being drawn up for him in the post.  It's not simply a matter of his minutes increasing: his role evolves every year as well.

I expect Brown and whoever we draft this year will follow similar trajectories.  We're a team that has the luxury of being able to ease these guys into roles rather than throw them in the deep end. 

That too, TP for you.

I agree that it's important for young players to get some playing time, at least when you're talking about talented prospects who you expect to one day play a big role.

I disagree that they necessarily need more than 15-20 minutes in a reserve role, especially when we're talking about 19-20 year-olds who were only in college for one year.

As long as we're not in a situation where we have a guy we selected in the top 5 playing in the D-League because there's no room for him in the rotation, I'm not too worried about it.

There are goals worth pursuing below the ultimate goal of winning a title.  I'm happy to see the Celts pursue those goals so long as it doesn't get in the way of having chances to build a sustainable, talented group that might contend at some point in the future.

Thankfully, because of the Nets trade, the Celts can do exactly that.


Yup. TP.

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Goes without saying, but force-feeding minutes is a terrible way to develop youth.  Young players need to be 1) gradually given time to settle into a system; and 2) learn that minutes are earned, not just handed out on the basis of how high you were drafted.

Look at Smart if you want a good example of Brad's developmental philosophy.  His rookie season, his role was "defend and stand in the corner on offense."  His sophomore year, he starts getting the ball a bit more (with mixed results.)  This year he's finally getting a decent helping of primary playmaking duties, as well as having some offensive sets being drawn up for him in the post.  It's not simply a matter of his minutes increasing: his role evolves every year as well.

I expect Brown and whoever we draft this year will follow similar trajectories.  We're a team that has the luxury of being able to ease these guys into roles rather than throw them in the deep end.
And look at the true superstars today, the real franchise level players.  How many minutes did James play as a rookie, what about Durant, Davis, Curry, Westbrook, etc.  Even Harden played over 22 minutes a game for OKC as a rookie (on a team with Westbrook and Durant).  Heck even Thomas has never played less than 25.5 mpg.

Sure if you have a guy that won't be a franchise player, bring him along slowly, but the real stars, come in and play immediately.  They struggle, they fail, they tend to not win a lot of games but they by and large grow and reach their potential a heck of a lot faster, and since you only have rookies for 4 years before you have to pay them big money, you need to know what kind of players they are or will be. 

Look at how much growth Brown has had the last few weeks getting over 25 minutes a game.  It has been tremendous for him.  Players learn and grow by actually playing real meaningful minutes in actual games. 

How is Fultz or Ball (or some other guard) going to get minutes with Thomas, Smart, Bradley, and Brown on the team?  Who is he taking minutes from?
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Offline mmmmm

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Ainge should try to do exactly what he's planning on trying to do anyway -- draft a potential superstar and sign or trade for a current star.  That's the goal, and whether we get swept in round 1 or win the title, the goal will be the same.
This is the correct answer. You can close the thread now

Agreed.
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Offline mmmmm

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Hopefully we land a top 2 pick, and then trade IT for the #3 pick so we can draft Josh Jackson. Ideal scenario Lakers gives us the pick for IT, and then they sign George.
Please people. Stop with the "Let's trade away our stars and draft teenagers because maybe, just maybe they will develop into stars and in 2025 we can be contenders." Please. Just. Stop.

Seriously.  I'm not getting any younger.

And why on earth would we ever want to help the Lakers like that?  I almost gagged.
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Offline Casperian

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Disagree completely. Think this whole black and white decision making that pervades this board about what direction the Celtics have to take either trade youth for stars and try to contend now or else trade off the vets and build with only youth is, quite simply, stupid. There are shades of grey and Danny is managing in that area, which is the best area to manage from.

There is simply no reason any result in the playoffs should effect what he does moving this team forward. None. And there is no reason to have some self imposed timetable as to when to blow this team up to build with youth. None. The entire concept is short sighted, poor in its concept from a business perspective and reeks of immature fantasy basketball/2K17 thinking.

Ainge needs to manage his cap effectively. He needs to keep the vets that are productive and who can be great influence to the youth. Develop the youth. And continue to make excellent trades that move the team forward. And he can do it slowly because he has an unprecedented pipeline to elite draft picks for the next couple of years.

He can have his cake and eat it too, unlike just about any other franchise in the association.

Exactamundo.

I actually wanted to make a thread about precisely this topic, but judging by this thread, that doesn't seem necessary, anymore.

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Offline mmmmm

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Triple teaming someone implies 2 players wide open, right?

That's happening the last two weeks and we are watching the result of this.

IT4 might be too selfish with the ball. Gotta learn to distribute it especially in those circumstances!

Right, but what happens when no one else can make a shot despite that "great distribution". Then what?

That's what pretty much happens.


true, but let's not pretend IT is the best passer, and that his height isn't a detriment when it comes to passing out of these triple teams.

That's where Smart's ball handling comes in handy. IT won't be double/triple teamed when he doesn't have the ball. And as far as IT is playing 2 is concerned, he's pretty effective with it.

Isaiah is creating 15.2 points per game via assists.  That's 14th most in the NBA.  His teammates are shooting 53% FG% on shots off his passes.    IT may not be "the best passer", but he's pretty [dang] good.

For comparison, Marcus is creating 11 points per game via assist, with his teammates shooting 50% FG% off his passes.
 
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Offline CoachBo

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Hopefully we land a top 2 pick, and then trade IT for the #3 pick so we can draft Josh Jackson. Ideal scenario Lakers gives us the pick for IT, and then they sign George.
Please people. Stop with the "Let's trade away our stars and draft teenagers because maybe, just maybe they will develop into stars and in 2025 we can be contenders." Please. Just. Stop.

Seriously.  I'm not getting any younger.

And why on earth would we ever want to help the Lakers like that?  I almost gagged.

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Offline Phantom255x

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Hopefully we land a top 2 pick, and then trade IT for the #3 pick so we can draft Josh Jackson. Ideal scenario Lakers gives us the pick for IT, and then they sign George.

No.. please.. you didn't ju.. oh my god what did you just suggest...  :o
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