Author Topic: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..  (Read 11909 times)

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Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #120 on: February 24, 2017, 03:57:46 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Danny's right about roster construction - it isn't worth putting a rebounding specialist on the floor who just makes you suck in halfcourt.

It's not only that but the fact that anyone who would meaningfully make them a better rebounding team would have to be a top-7 rotation guy, who would take minutes away from better all-around players, and ultimately make the team worse.

I think he's wrong that the C's aren't a good rebounding team because of the way they play offense. They are the second worst team in DRB%.

He also said 'style of play' in this context by which he means 'we play small.'

I would add in that looking for fast breaks often plays a role as well

This is all fine and dandy, but when Cleveland wrecks us on the boards, will you be saying the same thing? All I'm saying is be consistent. If you think we don't need someone like Noel, then we better never get a player like Noel because according to you, a player like Noel doesn't fit our system, which I scoff at. He can guard all 5 positions, but whatever.

Yes, if/when that happens I will still be saying that looking for fast breaks often plays a role in our poor defensive rebounding

Interesting, because from what I've seen this year, Cleveland knows our weakness and continues to exploit. Good to know you're not about making adjustments. Funny how the Warriors or Spurs, or Cleveland don't this weakness.

Also, clearly you believe Zizic doesn't belong in this system. Just to be consistent
Do you think we would have beat Cleveland even if we added a rebounder? I don't think adding a rebounder would have changed the outcome of that potential series.

Golden State, Cleveland, Toronto and Washington are all bottom third of the league in defensive rebounding.

I think guys like Zizic can succeed in our system as can other paint based big men. However, those guys need to be good enough at other things to mitigate the hit to our floor spacing that would occur. I'm not sure that there were good rebounders available that do enough other things to counter act the negative spacing effect on offense. We could still get Bogut which would help us, but I'm not sure the guys that were available to Ainge had more + than minuses even if there pluses fit a need.

Honestly my whole point was to discuss Ainge. He had nothing to lose, he could add a young asset like Noel for nothing. Even Okafor. I would like the Celtics to make trades similar to the IT one. Buy low, high reward...

I just think it's funny people on this board think Ainge is perfect when he is not. He drafted Melo for example. I think he made a mistake in the deadline by not taking advantage of the market. He could've gotten great value.

That's it. Ainge is amazing. I don't want anyone else running the team, but he should be more aggressive. We can trade a few of our picks.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #121 on: February 24, 2017, 04:00:56 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Danny's right about roster construction - it isn't worth putting a rebounding specialist on the floor who just makes you suck in halfcourt.

It's not only that but the fact that anyone who would meaningfully make them a better rebounding team would have to be a top-7 rotation guy, who would take minutes away from better all-around players, and ultimately make the team worse.

I think he's wrong that the C's aren't a good rebounding team because of the way they play offense. They are the second worst team in DRB%.

He also said 'style of play' in this context by which he means 'we play small.'

I would add in that looking for fast breaks often plays a role as well

This is all fine and dandy, but when Cleveland wrecks us on the boards, will you be saying the same thing? All I'm saying is be consistent. If you think we don't need someone like Noel, then we better never get a player like Noel because according to you, a player like Noel doesn't fit our system, which I scoff at. He can guard all 5 positions, but whatever.

Yes, if/when that happens I will still be saying that looking for fast breaks often plays a role in our poor defensive rebounding

Interesting, because from what I've seen this year, Cleveland knows our weakness and continues to exploit. Good to know you're not about making adjustments. Funny how the Warriors or Spurs, or Cleveland don't this weakness.

Also, clearly you believe Zizic doesn't belong in this system. Just to be consistent

When did I say either of those things? mctyson pointed out that, by "style of play", Danny meant "playing small", and I added that it would also include our tendency to look for fast breaks (since having guards leaking out and big men focusing more on getting the ball to the guards than getting the ball to begin with will tend to impact your defensive rebounding negatively)

I haven't said anything about Zizic or Noel not fitting or not thinking that adjustments should be made.  I don't mean to be rude, but you may want to reread the post's I've made and replied to in this string

Okay great, so Ainge is basically lying in the interview correct? Because he's saying he prefers bigs that spread the floor. Clearly this can't be true when we play Amir and planning on playing Zizic next year.

That is my point, hard to argue that Ainge is being honest here or consistent.

Dude, seriously, read my comment that you initially replied to. I haven't said anything about any of that, I think you have the wrong guy

I don't know why you're bringing Ainge, or his initial quotes, or him lying into this when I've said nothing about any of that.  Someone said that "style of play" meant playing small.  I said it also meant leaking out in transition. Then you asked me if I would still think that leaking out in transition was a part of our style of play that hurt our rebounding after the Cavs abused us in the playoffs. I then replied that, yes, I would still feel that leaking out from rebounds was a part of our style of play that hurt our defensive rebounding. Now you keep going on about Ainge lying or me thinking players wouldn't fit into our schemes, and I'm just sitting here wondering how that has anything to do with whether or not leaking out in transition is considered a part of our style of play that hurts our defensive rebounding
I'm bitter.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2017, 04:02:40 PM »

Offline liam

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What Danny said is EXACTLY what I have said multiple times on here over the last few years.  It is a false dichotomy to believe that you can stretch the floor the way the C's do with their bigs and also offensive rebound at a great rate.  It is also a false dichotomy to believe your big men  can defend the perimeter the way the C's do with their bigs and also defensive rebound at a great rate.

Horford leads all big men in contested 3 point shot attempts at 3.6 per game.  Olynyk is 5th at 2.9 per game and far and away leads all centers at 4.8 per 36.  You CANNOT expect your big men to defend on the perimeter a ton AND defensive rebound at a great rate. 

Rebounding should never be a focal point in deciding which big men to acquire and/or deploy.  You must defend 1st and slow bigs that hang around the paint and rebound are of NO help defending on the perimeter.  The C's bigs must be able to help defend the perimeter because I.T./Avery/Rozier are terrible at fighting over screens.  The C's would get slaughtered if the bigs hang back toward the paint and do not extend out to the 3 point line.

With that said the C's have a defensive rebound rate of 74.7% this year,  the C's title team of 2008 had a defensive rebound rate of 74.4%.  The argument for adding a rebounding big is nonsense and would cause a ton of other problems on the floor.

Ah, facts... ::)

How come Houston doesn't have this issue? Or the Spurs, or the Warriors? They spread the floor?

1   Denver   53.9%   55.0%   47.4%   54.1%   53.7%   51.1%
2   Chicago   52.5%   53.4%   60.4%   54.0%   51.1%   50.4%
3   Okla City   52.2%   54.8%   59.2%   53.2%   51.3%   53.7%
4   Detroit   51.8%   58.0%   54.6%   53.2%   50.3%   52.6%
5   San Antonio   51.3%   54.5%   57.4%   51.5%   51.2%   51.1%
6   Utah   51.3%   53.0%   53.1%   51.9%   50.5%   51.7%
7   Cleveland   50.8%   49.5%   45.8%   52.0%   49.5%   51.9%
8   Minnesota   50.4%   49.2%   46.8%   51.6%   48.9%   49.5%
9   Phoenix   50.4%   53.5%   61.1%   51.1%   49.8%   50.5%
10   New York   50.4%   48.4%   54.2%   50.8%   50.0%   49.8%
11   Charlotte   50.4%   43.2%   45.4%   50.8%   49.9%   49.6%
12   Houston   50.4%   50.6%   50.0%   51.1%   49.6%   49.9%
13   LA Clippers   50.3%   46.2%   47.2%   50.4%   50.3%   47.9%
14   Golden State   50.3%   45.5%   52.8%   51.6%   49.1%   50.0%
15   Miami   50.3%   49.4%   51.9%   50.8%   49.8%   51.3%
16   Memphis   50.1%   56.4%   56.0%   51.6%   48.5%   49.4%
17   Atlanta   50.1%   49.1%   56.2%   50.7%   49.6%   47.3%
18   Sacramento   49.9%   51.5%   52.6%   51.0%   49.1%   50.3%
19   LA Lakers   49.6%   45.6%   38.9%   50.9%   48.6%   48.4%
20   Washington   49.6%   49.5%   52.2%   49.9%   49.2%   49.3%
21   Milwaukee   49.5%   48.1%   51.1%   49.7%   49.3%   49.0%
22   Toronto   49.4%   49.7%   54.9%   50.6%   48.3%   51.8%
23   Orlando   49.1%   51.1%   51.4%   49.8%   48.5%   49.2%
24   Philadelphia   49.0%   52.6%   51.9%   49.6%   48.4%   47.1%
25   Portland   48.7%   51.2%   48.6%   49.3%   48.1%   50.7%
26   New Orleans   48.2%   46.9%   50.0%   48.5%   47.9%   49.3%
27   Indiana   48.0%   47.3%   47.8%   48.5%   47.5%   49.1%
28   Brooklyn   47.8%   48.1%   48.9%   47.9%   47.7%   49.6%
29   Boston   47.6%   46.9%   39.6%   48.5%   46.8%   49.2%
30   Dallas   46.2%   46.5%   37.1%   47.4%   45.1%   48.1%

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #123 on: February 24, 2017, 04:20:52 PM »

Offline The Oracle

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What Danny said is EXACTLY what I have said multiple times on here over the last few years.  It is a false dichotomy to believe that you can stretch the floor the way the C's do with their bigs and also offensive rebound at a great rate.  It is also a false dichotomy to believe your big men  can defend the perimeter the way the C's do with their bigs and also defensive rebound at a great rate.

Horford leads all big men in contested 3 point shot attempts at 3.6 per game.  Olynyk is 5th at 2.9 per game and far and away leads all centers at 4.8 per 36.  You CANNOT expect your big men to defend on the perimeter a ton AND defensive rebound at a great rate. 

Rebounding should never be a focal point in deciding which big men to acquire and/or deploy.  You must defend 1st and slow bigs that hang around the paint and rebound are of NO help defending on the perimeter.  The C's bigs must be able to help defend the perimeter because I.T./Avery/Rozier are terrible at fighting over screens.  The C's would get slaughtered if the bigs hang back toward the paint and do not extend out to the 3 point line.

With that said the C's have a defensive rebound rate of 74.7% this year,  the C's title team of 2008 had a defensive rebound rate of 74.4%.  The argument for adding a rebounding big is nonsense and would cause a ton of other problems on the floor.

Ah, facts... ::)

How come Houston doesn't have this issue? Or the Spurs, or the Warriors? They spread the floor?
Houston's defensive rebound rate is 76.3% only slightly better than the C's 74.7%.  The difference is they get a lot more help from their wings and Harden.

The Spurs Def. Reb. rate is 78.2% quite a bit better than the C's.  This is due to the Spurs having great perimeter defenders in Kawhi, Ginobili and Green, their bigs do not have to extend outward so much because of their big wings being so good at defending the perimeter and fighting over screens.

The Warriors also have huge wings that help rebound and defend the perimeter in Durant, Klay and Iggy.

A great example of how the C's can improve their defensive rebounding is to look at Charlotte who are 2nd in the league at Def. Reb. rate 79.8%.  Charlotte's bigs rebound at very similar rates to the C's.  The difference is found on the wing where Batum, M.K.G. and Lamb all have Def. Reb. rates in excess of 20% and are excellent defensive rebounders that far outclass the C's wings.  Crowder, Brown, Smart and friends just are not helping enough and a big reason why I believe that the C's number 1 priority should be to get bigger on the wing.



« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 04:29:15 PM by The Oracle »

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2017, 04:26:46 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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What Danny said is EXACTLY what I have said multiple times on here over the last few years.  It is a false dichotomy to believe that you can stretch the floor the way the C's do with their bigs and also offensive rebound at a great rate.  It is also a false dichotomy to believe your big men  can defend the perimeter the way the C's do with their bigs and also defensive rebound at a great rate.

Horford leads all big men in contested 3 point shot attempts at 3.6 per game.  Olynyk is 5th at 2.9 per game and far and away leads all centers at 4.8 per 36.  You CANNOT expect your big men to defend on the perimeter a ton AND defensive rebound at a great rate. 

Rebounding should never be a focal point in deciding which big men to acquire and/or deploy.  You must defend 1st and slow bigs that hang around the paint and rebound are of NO help defending on the perimeter.  The C's bigs must be able to help defend the perimeter because I.T./Avery/Rozier are terrible at fighting over screens.  The C's would get slaughtered if the bigs hang back toward the paint and do not extend out to the 3 point line.

With that said the C's have a defensive rebound rate of 74.7% this year,  the C's title team of 2008 had a defensive rebound rate of 74.4%.  The argument for adding a rebounding big is nonsense and would cause a ton of other problems on the floor.

Ah, facts... ::)

How come Houston doesn't have this issue? Or the Spurs, or the Warriors? They spread the floor?
Houston's defensive rebound rate is 76.3% only slightly better than the C's 74.7%.  The difference is they get a lot more help from their wings and Harden.

The Spurs Def. Reb. rate is 78.2% quite a bit better than the C's.  This is due to the Spurs having great perimeter defenders in Kawhi, Ginobili and Green, their bigs do not have to extend outward so much because of their big wings being so good at defending the perimeter and fighting over screens.

The Warriors also have huge wings that help rebound and defend the perimeter and rebound in Durant, Klay and Iggy.

A great example of how the C's can improve their defensive rebounding is to look at Charlotte who are 2nd in the league at Def. Reb. rate 79.8%.  Charlotte's bigs rebound at very similar rates to the C's.  The difference is found on the wing where Batum, M.K.G. and Lamb all have Def. Reb. rates in excess of 20% and are excellent defensive rebounders that far outclass the C's wings.  Crowder, Brown, Smart and friends just are not helping enough and a big reason why I believe that the C's number 1 priority should be to get bigger on the wing.

Respect Oracle makes sense to me. You always have great data.... I was hoping we draft Jackson anyways if we don't get first overall pick. Would love a big lineup.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2017, 04:29:37 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Danny's right about roster construction - it isn't worth putting a rebounding specialist on the floor who just makes you suck in halfcourt.

It's not only that but the fact that anyone who would meaningfully make them a better rebounding team would have to be a top-7 rotation guy, who would take minutes away from better all-around players, and ultimately make the team worse.

I think he's wrong that the C's aren't a good rebounding team because of the way they play offense. They are the second worst team in DRB%.

He also said 'style of play' in this context by which he means 'we play small.'

I would add in that looking for fast breaks often plays a role as well

This is all fine and dandy, but when Cleveland wrecks us on the boards, will you be saying the same thing? All I'm saying is be consistent. If you think we don't need someone like Noel, then we better never get a player like Noel because according to you, a player like Noel doesn't fit our system, which I scoff at. He can guard all 5 positions, but whatever.

If and when they play Cleveland, and if and when Cleveland wins by 'wrecking us on the boards' we can look back and say not adding a significant rebounder was maybe a mistake (though I don't see who was available at the deadline that would neutralize Lebron, Love, and Thompson all at the same time, while playing 15 min a game as the 7-9th rotation guy.)

Until this happens, we should want this current Celtics team  - to paraphrase Coach Stevens - "be the best version of themselves."  That is an elite offensive team that shares the ball, shoots a ton of threes, and can switch lots of picks on defense.

Let's worry about the Cavs when that series happens.  Until then, it was the right move to stay the course.



Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2017, 04:32:00 PM »

Offline footey

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What Danny said is EXACTLY what I have said multiple times on here over the last few years.  It is a false dichotomy to believe that you can stretch the floor the way the C's do with their bigs and also offensive rebound at a great rate.  It is also a false dichotomy to believe your big men  can defend the perimeter the way the C's do with their bigs and also defensive rebound at a great rate.

Horford leads all big men in contested 3 point shot attempts at 3.6 per game.  Olynyk is 5th at 2.9 per game and far and away leads all centers at 4.8 per 36.  You CANNOT expect your big men to defend on the perimeter a ton AND defensive rebound at a great rate. 

Rebounding should never be a focal point in deciding which big men to acquire and/or deploy.  You must defend 1st and slow bigs that hang around the paint and rebound are of NO help defending on the perimeter.  The C's bigs must be able to help defend the perimeter because I.T./Avery/Rozier are terrible at fighting over screens.  The C's would get slaughtered if the bigs hang back toward the paint and do not extend out to the 3 point line.

With that said the C's have a defensive rebound rate of 74.7% this year,  the C's title team of 2008 had a defensive rebound rate of 74.4%.  The argument for adding a rebounding big is nonsense and would cause a ton of other problems on the floor.

Ah, facts... ::)


How come Houston doesn't have this issue? Or the Spurs, or the Warriors? They spread the floor?
Houston's defensive rebound rate is 76.3% only slightly better than the C's 74.7%.  The difference is they get a lot more help from their wings and Harden.

The Spurs Def. Reb. rate is 78.2% quite a bit better than the C's.  This is due to the Spurs having great perimeter defenders in Kawhi, Ginobili and Green, their bigs do not have to extend outward so much because of their big wings being so good at defending the perimeter and fighting over screens.

The Warriors also have huge wings that help rebound and defend the perimeter in Durant, Klay and Iggy.

A great example of how the C's can improve their defensive rebounding is to look at Charlotte who are 2nd in the league at Def. Reb. rate 79.8%.  Charlotte's bigs rebound at very similar rates to the C's.  The difference is found on the wing where Batum, M.K.G. and Lamb all have Def. Reb. rates in excess of 20% and are excellent defensive rebounders that far outclass the C's wings.  Crowder, Brown, Smart and friends just are not helping enough and a big reason why I believe that the C's number 1 priority should be to get bigger on the wing.

Draft Jackson!!

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2017, 04:33:44 PM »

Offline footey

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We are fundamentally poor at boxing out as a team. Horford especially.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2017, 04:42:26 PM »

Offline LGC88

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What Danny said is EXACTLY what I have said multiple times on here over the last few years.  It is a false dichotomy to believe that you can stretch the floor the way the C's do with their bigs and also offensive rebound at a great rate.  It is also a false dichotomy to believe your big men  can defend the perimeter the way the C's do with their bigs and also defensive rebound at a great rate.

Horford leads all big men in contested 3 point shot attempts at 3.6 per game.  Olynyk is 5th at 2.9 per game and far and away leads all centers at 4.8 per 36.  You CANNOT expect your big men to defend on the perimeter a ton AND defensive rebound at a great rate. 

Rebounding should never be a focal point in deciding which big men to acquire and/or deploy.  You must defend 1st and slow bigs that hang around the paint and rebound are of NO help defending on the perimeter.  The C's bigs must be able to help defend the perimeter because I.T./Avery/Rozier are terrible at fighting over screens.  The C's would get slaughtered if the bigs hang back toward the paint and do not extend out to the 3 point line.

With that said the C's have a defensive rebound rate of 74.7% this year,  the C's title team of 2008 had a defensive rebound rate of 74.4%.  The argument for adding a rebounding big is nonsense and would cause a ton of other problems on the floor.

Ah, facts... ::)

How come Houston doesn't have this issue? Or the Spurs, or the Warriors? They spread the floor?
Houston's defensive rebound rate is 76.3% only slightly better than the C's 74.7%.  The difference is they get a lot more help from their wings and Harden.

The Spurs Def. Reb. rate is 78.2% quite a bit better than the C's.  This is due to the Spurs having great perimeter defenders in Kawhi, Ginobili and Green, their bigs do not have to extend outward so much because of their big wings being so good at defending the perimeter and fighting over screens.

The Warriors also have huge wings that help rebound and defend the perimeter in Durant, Klay and Iggy.

A great example of how the C's can improve their defensive rebounding is to look at Charlotte who are 2nd in the league at Def. Reb. rate 79.8%.  Charlotte's bigs rebound at very similar rates to the C's.  The difference is found on the wing where Batum, M.K.G. and Lamb all have Def. Reb. rates in excess of 20% and are excellent defensive rebounders that far outclass the C's wings.  Crowder, Brown, Smart and friends just are not helping enough and a big reason why I believe that the C's number 1 priority should be to get bigger on the wing.

TP
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Each time it's a lesson learn for me.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »

Offline The Oracle

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We are fundamentally poor at boxing out as a team. Horford especially.
Horford, Amir and Olynyk are not traditional centers thus their ability to box out other bigger centers is going to be somewhat limited.  The gains obtained from playing them instead of traditional bigs far outweigh the small loss in rebounding.

The small guards are also a big problem boxing out, I.T. Rozier and Avery do little to keep opponents off the glass especially on switches.


Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2017, 05:50:56 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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People, people, people. 

Have not read the entire thread but clearly people are missing the point.  When Danny says, we don't want a rebounder who is bad on offense, he's not talking about all the possible big men that may or may not have been available.  Of course there are big men that can rebound are are good offensive players.  They are at a premium, but that they exist.

No, Ainge's comments were directed at the names that were specifically floated out there before the deadline or were actually traded; Bogut, Noel, etc.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2017, 09:50:14 PM »

Online Phantom255x

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.. Because clearly Olynyk and Zeller our answers on the boards  ::)

Come on Danny, get Bogut or Terrence Jones PLEASE.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller