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Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2017, 12:00:32 PM »

Offline ederson

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the that you already predict playoff failure proves the point of the OP

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2017, 12:03:26 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Ainge's explanation doesn't make sense. He talks about Boston's desire to "spread the floor" with its bigs, but that's on offense; Boston's biggest rebounding problem is defensive rebounding—that is, giving up too many offensive rebounds to opponents. Boston needs to be able to limit opponents to one shot per possession, which means that relying on KO and Al is a disaster.

It's not football -- you can't swap offensive and defensive players every possession.   If you want Andrew Bogut out there getting defensive rebounds, it means that he's out there not spreading the floor on offense.  Ideally the Celtics would have a power forward who can hit threes, pass, and set good screens on offense while also being capable of getting rebounds on defense.  But they aren't getting Draymond Green, and I guess they couldn't quite get JaMychal Green.  Hopefully in a couple of years that's what Yabusele turns into.  That's what they hoped Jordan Mickey would become, but it hasn't worked out.

A false dichotomy is being perpetuated—namely, that you can only have offensively skilled bigs who are bad rebounders, OR good rebounding bigs who can't spread the floor.

The truth is that a player can be both, and that such players exist, and (I'm admittedly guessing with this part) there's got to be some out there who don't cost a king's ransom.

What false dichotomy? I went on to mention players that could help, including internal solutions that didn't work.  It's not like the team doesn't know what type of players it needs, but none of them were traded yesterday.  Even Ibaka isn't that special of a rebounder.

Here's the list of bigs this season who have: a) made 35% of their 3-pointers, b) attempted at least 50 3-pointers, and c) have a defensive rebounding percentage of greater than 20%. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_active=Y&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&force%3Apos_is=1&c1stat=fg3_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=0.35&c2stat=drb_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.20&c3stat=fg3a&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c6mult=1.0&order_by=drb_pct

There are 8 of them:

Cousins
Love
Nowitzki
Embiid
Jokic
Speights
JaMychal Green
Olynyk

We've talked enough about Cousins.  It didn't happen, and it's time to move on.  Love is clearly someone the Celtics have wanted for years.  Nowitzki is 100% unavailable, as are Embiid and Jokic.  Speights wasn't getting traded yesterday.  Maybe he'd have been nice to pick up this offseason.  Perhaps the Celtics even made a run at him, and he wanted to stay out West.  Then there's JaMychal Green, who briefly popped up in a rumor but was not traded, and Olynyk, whom we already have.

There aren't a ton of options.  We've actually already got one  of them.  Who knows, maybe JaMychal Green will be someone that we target in free agency if we don't get an All-NBA player?

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2017, 12:04:01 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Love that he says a rebounding specialist wouldn't get any play if he can't spread the floor for BS. Lol great it's all on BS and his system now. BS is the rebounding ptoblem? Maybe you need a new coach if he won't tweak his system for his actual roster.

Yeah, I mean that system isn't producing the 6th-best offense in the NBA and the fifth-best shooting team (including free-throws), and not to mention the fifth-best record.  Clearly they should get a new system.

I'm sorry you get annoyed when the other team gets a few too many second-chances.  But this system has helped improve the offense from being the 13th-best like last year to #6, and we were the 21st-best at shooting.  Most of the players are the same.  Some are playing better than last year, but the offense scheme is a major part of it.
Let me know when that system proves itself in the playoffs
Bostons biggest hurdle from a PR standpoint is that everyone is waiting for them to win a playoff series, but its really hard to win one of those in February.

This team is much better than the healthy version of last years team. The healthy version of last years team is much better than the one that lost in round 1 of the playoffs.
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Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2017, 12:07:49 PM »

Offline Clench123

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Excuses, excuses, excuses.  More excuses on why you failed at your job again, Danny. 

You don't think rebounding is important?  Let's see how your overrated guards hold up in the playoffs against a good rebounding team.

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Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2017, 12:10:36 PM »

Offline OldSchoolDude

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I think its two fold:
1) Noel doesn't make us better than the GSW, and frankly no one does at this time.
2)  I believe the team really likes Zizic.

I think they would have made a trade for either Okafor or Noel early in the season if Philly had not been so stubborn.   But once Zizic started dominating consistently they were like, hey we already have our center. 
Don't think so? 
1)Rumor was Philly tried to trade us Bogut before the dead line.  We weren't interested.
2)We could have put together a better package for Noel without giving up really anything - LA & Memphis 1st + Rozier and Mickey is a much better offer and all it does for us is give Brown more minuets.  But the C's dint't like a pure rebounding big. I think they do and I think that's exactly what Zizic is.
3) Attitude aside Cousins would have been a worth while rental for the price paid, and again LA & Memphis 1st + Rozier and Mickey is still a better deal or at least on par and I would have offered Crowder if it meant a year and a half of Cousins. But the C's didn't want to deal with the attitude despite the skill?  At that rock bottom price it's worth a shot, unless you feel confidant in what you have. what we have is a not good enough up front right now, but again maybe they believe Zizic is the answer. 

Am I over hyping Ziizc, maybe not. He's been really so much better than expected and there is not even one source that doesn't agree.   Every source says he is NBA ready right now and that he has statistically out preformed every big to come out of the Adriatic league at the same age.  He is also the only big to come from the Adriatic league to make the jump into Euro league where his stats are on par or better than ever big who has come to the NBA from Euro league at the same age, except for maybe Darko Miličić but he really had all the physical tool to be a great player he was just a serious nut job, no mental game.  So, yeah there is a lot of reason to hype Zizic. 

 

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2017, 12:18:07 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Excuses, excuses, excuses.  More excuses on why you failed at your job again, Danny. 

You don't think rebounding is important?  Let's see how your overrated guards hold up in the playoffs against a good rebounding team.

These aren't excuses, their reasons. You don't have to agree with the reasons, but not even making an effort to understand his reasoning and just dismissing it as "excuses" is just lazy.

He didn't "fail at his job", because his job is not to make trades to satisfy impatient fans or to try and make the ECF.  His job is to win championships, and nothing he did yesterday moved us further away from that or made it impossible.

And he isn't saying that rebounding isn't important, he's saying that rebounding is not more important than fit in our offense.  This team is a lot better with a skilled big like Horford or Olynyk in there than a guy who's only skill is rebounding. If you can get a guy that can rebound and is skilled, go for it (Jones, maybe?). But don't sacrifice the offense for an extra 1 or 2 rebounds a game.
I'm bitter.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2017, 12:21:46 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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I don't think anyone was asking for a single dimensioned rebounding machine that could do nothing else but rebound. Just a rotational player, maybe with some size that had some sort of impact on the boards.

This problem we have with rebounding the ball will follow us the rest of the season, and into the play-offs.

In my book, one of the most damaging plays in basketball is giving up the offensive rebound, one which we give up on a continual basis.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2017, 12:25:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I don't think anyone was asking for a single dimensioned rebounding machine that could do nothing else but rebound. Just a rotational player, maybe with some size that had some sort of impact on the boards.

This problem we have with rebounding the ball will follow us the rest of the season, and into the play-offs.

In my book, one of the most damaging plays in basketball is giving up the offensive rebound, one which we give up on a continual basis.

I'd say giving up an open layup out of a pick and roll or leaving a guy open in the corner for three is worse
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Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2017, 12:30:28 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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Ainge's explanation doesn't make sense. He talks about Boston's desire to "spread the floor" with its bigs, but that's on offense; Boston's biggest rebounding problem is defensive rebounding—that is, giving up too many offensive rebounds to opponents. Boston needs to be able to limit opponents to one shot per possession, which means that relying on KO and Al is a disaster.

It's not football -- you can't swap offensive and defensive players every possession.   If you want Andrew Bogut out there getting defensive rebounds, it means that he's out there not spreading the floor on offense.  Ideally the Celtics would have a power forward who can hit threes, pass, and set good screens on offense while also being capable of getting rebounds on defense.  But they aren't getting Draymond Green, and I guess they couldn't quite get JaMychal Green.  Hopefully in a couple of years that's what Yabusele turns into.  That's what they hoped Jordan Mickey would become, but it hasn't worked out.

A false dichotomy is being perpetuated—namely, that you can only have offensively skilled bigs who are bad rebounders, OR good rebounding bigs who can't spread the floor.

The truth is that a player can be both, and that such players exist, and (I'm admittedly guessing with this part) there's got to be some out there who don't cost a king's ransom.

What false dichotomy? I went on to mention players that could help, including internal solutions that didn't work.  It's not like the team doesn't know what type of players it needs, but none of them were traded yesterday.  Even Ibaka isn't that special of a rebounder.

Here's the list of bigs this season who have: a) made 35% of their 3-pointers, b) attempted at least 50 3-pointers, and c) have a defensive rebounding percentage of greater than 20%. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_active=Y&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&force%3Apos_is=1&c1stat=fg3_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=0.35&c2stat=drb_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.20&c3stat=fg3a&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c6mult=1.0&order_by=drb_pct

There are 8 of them:

Cousins
Love
Nowitzki
Embiid
Jokic
Speights
JaMychal Green
Olynyk

We've talked enough about Cousins.  It didn't happen, and it's time to move on.  Love is clearly someone the Celtics have wanted for years.  Nowitzki is 100% unavailable, as are Embiid and Jokic.  Speights wasn't getting traded yesterday.  Maybe he'd have been nice to pick up this offseason.  Perhaps the Celtics even made a run at him, and he wanted to stay out West.  Then there's JaMychal Green, who briefly popped up in a rumor but was not traded, and Olynyk, whom we already have.

There aren't a ton of options.  We've actually already got one  of them.  Who knows, maybe JaMychal Green will be someone that we target in free agency if we don't get an All-NBA player?

The problem is that some people (including Ainge, at least according to his public comments) are conflating an issue of offense and an issue of defense that are actually separate, distinct issues.

If you have a bunch of 3pt shooters spreading the floor on offense, of course you're going to get very few offensive rebounds, but there's nothing hindering those 3pt shooters (when it's their turn to play defense) from crashing the defensive boards when the opponent puts up a shot. That's Boston's problem. And that's the false dichotomy—saying that "skilled offensive bigs" can't get defensive rebounds, as though it's an either/or proposition, when it's not.

You can be a good defensive rebounder and still spread the floor on offense. Those skills aren't mutually exclusive.
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Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2017, 12:33:36 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I don't think anyone was asking for a single dimensioned rebounding machine that could do nothing else but rebound. Just a rotational player, maybe with some size that had some sort of impact on the boards.

This problem we have with rebounding the ball will follow us the rest of the season, and into the play-offs.

In my book, one of the most damaging plays in basketball is giving up the offensive rebound, one which we give up on a continual basis.

I'd say giving up an open layup out of a pick and roll or leaving a guy open in the corner for three is worse

Open layups are clearly a problem, but Rosco didn't say they weren't. He said that "one of the most damaging plays is ... the offensive rebound," and he's right. Game 7 of the 2010 Finals ought to be proof enough of that. But if it's not, there have been plenty of examples from this year's Celtics.

Rosco also said:

Quote
I don't think anyone was asking for a single dimensioned rebounding machine that could do nothing else but rebound.

This is basically the point I've been making. Guys can do a decent job of getting defensive rebounds on one end of the court, then go down to the other end of the court and spread the floor at least close to the three-point line.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2017, 12:37:15 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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What Danny is explaining and which some apparently don't have the capacity to understand because they are stuck in their "let's-run-the-Celtics-like-I-run-my-fantasy-basketball-team" way of thinking, is the Celtics have an offensive system, defensive system and definitive philosophy on rebounding and how important it is as compared to other components of the game. The Celtics also value a certain personality, coachability and work ethic in their players. For these reasons, the Celtics were going to be picky about who they were going to add to this team given the excellent success they have had with this group. Certain types of players, versatile players that can do many things well, would have been welcome here at a fair price. Limited players with just one skill would not be welcome here. Other than Butler or George, there just wasn't anyone available that fit this team's idea of a player that would have an overall positive impact on the team.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2017, 12:43:19 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Ainge's explanation doesn't make sense. He talks about Boston's desire to "spread the floor" with its bigs, but that's on offense; Boston's biggest rebounding problem is defensive rebounding—that is, giving up too many offensive rebounds to opponents. Boston needs to be able to limit opponents to one shot per possession, which means that relying on KO and Al is a disaster.

It's not football -- you can't swap offensive and defensive players every possession.   If you want Andrew Bogut out there getting defensive rebounds, it means that he's out there not spreading the floor on offense.  Ideally the Celtics would have a power forward who can hit threes, pass, and set good screens on offense while also being capable of getting rebounds on defense.  But they aren't getting Draymond Green, and I guess they couldn't quite get JaMychal Green.  Hopefully in a couple of years that's what Yabusele turns into.  That's what they hoped Jordan Mickey would become, but it hasn't worked out.

A false dichotomy is being perpetuated—namely, that you can only have offensively skilled bigs who are bad rebounders, OR good rebounding bigs who can't spread the floor.

The truth is that a player can be both, and that such players exist, and (I'm admittedly guessing with this part) there's got to be some out there who don't cost a king's ransom.

What false dichotomy? I went on to mention players that could help, including internal solutions that didn't work.  It's not like the team doesn't know what type of players it needs, but none of them were traded yesterday.  Even Ibaka isn't that special of a rebounder.

Here's the list of bigs this season who have: a) made 35% of their 3-pointers, b) attempted at least 50 3-pointers, and c) have a defensive rebounding percentage of greater than 20%. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_active=Y&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&force%3Apos_is=1&c1stat=fg3_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=0.35&c2stat=drb_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.20&c3stat=fg3a&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c6mult=1.0&order_by=drb_pct

There are 8 of them:

Cousins
Love
Nowitzki
Embiid
Jokic
Speights
JaMychal Green
Olynyk

We've talked enough about Cousins.  It didn't happen, and it's time to move on.  Love is clearly someone the Celtics have wanted for years.  Nowitzki is 100% unavailable, as are Embiid and Jokic.  Speights wasn't getting traded yesterday.  Maybe he'd have been nice to pick up this offseason.  Perhaps the Celtics even made a run at him, and he wanted to stay out West.  Then there's JaMychal Green, who briefly popped up in a rumor but was not traded, and Olynyk, whom we already have.

There aren't a ton of options.  We've actually already got one  of them.  Who knows, maybe JaMychal Green will be someone that we target in free agency if we don't get an All-NBA player?

The problem is that some people (including Ainge, at least according to his public comments) are conflating an issue of offense and an issue of defense that are actually separate, distinct issues.

If you have a bunch of 3pt shooters spreading the floor on offense, of course you're going to get very few offensive rebounds, but there's nothing hindering those 3pt shooters (when it's their turn to play defense) from crashing the defensive boards when the opponent puts up a shot. That's Boston's problem. And that's the false dichotomy—saying that "skilled offensive bigs" can't get defensive rebounds, as though it's an either/or proposition, when it's not.

You can be a good defensive rebounder and still spread the floor on offense. Those skills aren't mutually exclusive.

Right, I said that.  And then linked to the 8 bigs that are good at both shooting 3-pointers and defensive rebounding.  Did you even read my response?  Rebounding isn't simply about effort.  It's about skill -- be it reading where the ball is going to rebound and getting in position quickly, or being long enough, strong enough, and agile enough to fend off others for the rebound. 

I'm not saying that players can't do both.  I'm saying that there are literally only a handful of them in the NBA, and most of them are franchise cornerstones.  And I listed them out for you.  Heck, you can drop my shooting requirement from 35% to 33% and the only player you're adding is Towns.  There just aren't than many bigs who can both rebound defensively and stretch the floor.  You can scream about not getting one of them, but we already have one.  Most teams have 0.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2017, 12:48:01 PM »

Offline Irish Stew

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At this point, I can live with bringing in Jones but if posters believe that doing nothing won't result in playoff game after playoff game with the Celtics getting hammered on the glass, IMO they are simply fooling themselves. Expect increased defensive intensity, less easy buckets, more missed shots with more rebounds, and more physical play. Take another look at our last game against the Bulls to get a preview of what our playoff games may look like.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2017, 12:53:37 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Ainge's explanation doesn't make sense. He talks about Boston's desire to "spread the floor" with its bigs, but that's on offense; Boston's biggest rebounding problem is defensive rebounding—that is, giving up too many offensive rebounds to opponents. Boston needs to be able to limit opponents to one shot per possession, which means that relying on KO and Al is a disaster.

It's not football -- you can't swap offensive and defensive players every possession.   If you want Andrew Bogut out there getting defensive rebounds, it means that he's out there not spreading the floor on offense.  Ideally the Celtics would have a power forward who can hit threes, pass, and set good screens on offense while also being capable of getting rebounds on defense.  But they aren't getting Draymond Green, and I guess they couldn't quite get JaMychal Green.  Hopefully in a couple of years that's what Yabusele turns into.  That's what they hoped Jordan Mickey would become, but it hasn't worked out.

A false dichotomy is being perpetuated—namely, that you can only have offensively skilled bigs who are bad rebounders, OR good rebounding bigs who can't spread the floor.

The truth is that a player can be both, and that such players exist, and (I'm admittedly guessing with this part) there's got to be some out there who don't cost a king's ransom.

What false dichotomy? I went on to mention players that could help, including internal solutions that didn't work.  It's not like the team doesn't know what type of players it needs, but none of them were traded yesterday.  Even Ibaka isn't that special of a rebounder.

Here's the list of bigs this season who have: a) made 35% of their 3-pointers, b) attempted at least 50 3-pointers, and c) have a defensive rebounding percentage of greater than 20%. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_active=Y&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2017&year_max=2017&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&force%3Apos_is=1&c1stat=fg3_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=0.35&c2stat=drb_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=0.20&c3stat=fg3a&c3comp=gt&c3val=50&c6mult=1.0&order_by=drb_pct

There are 8 of them:

Cousins
Love
Nowitzki
Embiid
Jokic
Speights
JaMychal Green
Olynyk

We've talked enough about Cousins.  It didn't happen, and it's time to move on.  Love is clearly someone the Celtics have wanted for years.  Nowitzki is 100% unavailable, as are Embiid and Jokic.  Speights wasn't getting traded yesterday.  Maybe he'd have been nice to pick up this offseason.  Perhaps the Celtics even made a run at him, and he wanted to stay out West.  Then there's JaMychal Green, who briefly popped up in a rumor but was not traded, and Olynyk, whom we already have.

There aren't a ton of options.  We've actually already got one  of them.  Who knows, maybe JaMychal Green will be someone that we target in free agency if we don't get an All-NBA player?

The problem is that some people (including Ainge, at least according to his public comments) are conflating an issue of offense and an issue of defense that are actually separate, distinct issues.

If you have a bunch of 3pt shooters spreading the floor on offense, of course you're going to get very few offensive rebounds, but there's nothing hindering those 3pt shooters (when it's their turn to play defense) from crashing the defensive boards when the opponent puts up a shot. That's Boston's problem. And that's the false dichotomy—saying that "skilled offensive bigs" can't get defensive rebounds, as though it's an either/or proposition, when it's not.

You can be a good defensive rebounder and still spread the floor on offense. Those skills aren't mutually exclusive.

Of course those skills aren't mutually exclusive, and given the choice between a skilled big that can't rebound and an equally skilled big that can rebound, Danny and everyone else would take the one that can rebound.  The issue is that few of those players exist, and those that do weren't available this trade deadline (JaMychel Green looked like a possibility, but ended up staying in Memphis, and Ibaka was available but we weren't gonna sign him to a max this summer)
I'm bitter.

Re: Ainge Explains Why He Didn't Make A Minor Move For Rebounding..
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2017, 12:54:25 PM »

Offline Chief Macho

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Sounds like he's parroting Stevens words from earlier this season.  It's mostly bullEdited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. though. See how it works out for you in the playoffs when defense is tighter and rebounding wins game.   Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.s.