Author Topic: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder  (Read 14741 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6067
  • Tommy Points: 336
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Offline jambr380

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7721
  • Tommy Points: 866
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

I know I am not SL, but check my other posts (here and in the Paul George/Hayward one). Butler makes $18.7M next year while Crowder and AB make a combined $15.6M. We are already going to be cutting it really close (hoping NOT to get #1 or #2 pick in the draft) to be able to sign Hayward. Also, it is assumed that Mickey, KO, JJ, Amir, Zeller, Jackson, Young, GG, etc are not on the team next year.

As I said, you could probably make it work with selling off the '17 pick along with AB/Crowder, but not just AB/Crowder.

Edit: I see you did respond in the other thread - sorry if I came off snarky.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 09:23:23 AM by jambr380 »

Online JBcat

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2673
  • Tommy Points: 455
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.

Offline bdm860

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4099
  • Tommy Points: 1792
That link from the OP didn't work for me, so if you want to watch the video try this link (video is half way down):
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/02/22/trade-deadline-buzz-feb-22-2017

One thing Aldridge says is:

"Danny would like to go into the playoffs with Smart, Bradley, Crowder defensively along with Butler, Horford, Thomas offensively, and I think he feels that's the only way he's going to compete with a team like Cleveland.  And Chicago, rightly saying, you want our best player, you can't just do it for picks."

So maybe it's not even a Crowder vs Bradley issue?  Maybe Ainge is only looking to trade Brown + 1 Nets pick + (other non-Nets pick/draft rights/Rozier + salary filler)?  Man if Danny could pull that off.

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class

Online hpantazo

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17404
  • Tommy Points: 497
I think Ainge is trying to get both Butler and George, that's why he won't move the Nets 2017 pick or Crowder for Butler.

Offline gift

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1409
  • Tommy Points: 140
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.

The cheap contract isn't just value for the owners' pockets. It's value in the effort of team building. Whether or not it's overvalued is a different argument. But I don't think it's accurate to assume it's about the financial bottom line.

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.


wooooooossshhhhhhhhhhhhh
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline number_n9ne

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 671
  • Tommy Points: 88
  • #StayWoke
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.
"I don't really have an ego. I have a presence and aura about me that's very reality-based."

-Zen Master Kyrie

Offline fairweatherfan

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18262
  • Tommy Points: 1969
  • Be the posts you wish to see in the world.
Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)


You might not agree with the reason, but what the reason is has been extremely clear. We think he's toxic.


As for the actual trade I'd have to see what else we're willing to offer. If it's BRK 18 and Bradley then I don't blame us for not wanting to throw Crowder in on top. His contract is still an amazing deal for a first wing off the bench, and three really good (one potentially great in the pick) assets seems like too much if they're legit willing to move on from Butler.

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • NCE
  • Paul Pierce
  • ***************************
  • Posts: 27123
  • Tommy Points: 2053
I think Ainge is trying to get both Butler and George, that's why he won't move the Nets 2017 pick or Crowder for Butler.

I agree ....he needs both to compete , add Zizic , AL , Smart and IT .   LeBron is not safe anymore.

Subtract Rozier, Crowder , Bradley , Zeller, KO , Nets 2017 and 2018 and couple other picks and end up,

Adding two of these three ....George ,Butler or Drummond........there is enough to Compete.

Offline chambers

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7447
  • Tommy Points: 937
  • Boston Celtics= Championships, nothing less.
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6067
  • Tommy Points: 336
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.

The cheap contract isn't just value for the owners' pockets. It's value in the effort of team building. Whether or not it's overvalued is a different argument. But I don't think it's accurate to assume it's about the financial bottom line.

If you're serious about a championship, you don't allow a role player on a cheap contract to become an albatross - unless you've got the Green Teamer glasses on as an owner and said role player is one of your "favorites."

If that's the case, you're not going to build a champion anyway. Your judgment is fatally clouded.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Offline BitterJim

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5351
  • Tommy Points: 714
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.

You should have known better and bought a Zeller or Young jersey
I'm bitter.

Online saltlover

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10582
  • Tommy Points: 2278
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

You don't actually know this for a fact, you are just guessing.

Boston will have Bird Right's on all of these players, and thus can afford them if they are willing to pay the luxury tax bill.

I would be willing to bet Wyc is willing to pay it for at least a few years, until Boston starts to get hit with the repeater tax.

Whatever man.  Keep living in happy fairy land where the Celtics are willing to pay $30 million a year in luxury tax bills.  Even keeping Crowder, along with Smart, IT, Butler, and Horford, is very likely to send the team a few million over the tax line, and hit the team with a $5-10 million bill.  Every dollar more that Bradley makes more than Crowder will cost the team about $2.50 in luxury tax.  So when Crowder is scheduled to make $7.2 million in 2018, if Bradley gets $15.2 million (a perfectly reasonable number, if not arguably low), the Celtics will owe an extra $20 million in tax bills.  And then the next summer, when Butler opts out and has his salary increase by another $12 million?  That's easily an additional $30 million in tax bills, bringing the total to near $60 million. 

That isn't sustainable, and the difference between Bradley and Crowder, in terms of long-term planning, is immense.  A team with IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford as the top 5 probably has a total luxury tax bill of $35 million over the next three seasons.  Swapping in Bradley for Crowder is about $90 million over the same time.  That's a lot of money, and I strongly suspect more than they're willing to pay to keep Bradley (considering I'm guessing he makes about $30 million over those final two seasons as well).  In other words, $90 million to keep Bradley the extra two years that Crowder has on his contract.

Crowder is untouchable.
“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.”

Leviticus 19:33-34

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32766
  • Tommy Points: 1525
  • Pre-school artwork
I might get upset if I knew what the rest of the offered package was. 


Then again, I might be upset if I knew what the rest of offered package was before the possible addition of Crowder.



Knicks: Irving, Drummond, Marcus Morris, S. Muhammad, C. Lee, Sullinger, Hield, M. Chriss , V. Carter, T. Zeller, N. Cole, T. Prince, Livio Jean-Charles, Tyler Ulis, N. Collison