Author Topic: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder  (Read 8722 times)

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Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Yeah, I feel like we shouldn't give up Crowder as well.

Really good player on a VERY CHEAP contract? I know we're getting an All-Star in return, but if we're talking about luxury tax management, it's easier when you have a starting caliber player making so little.

Why can't it just be AB + Jaylen + salary filler + a Brooklyn 1st + another 1st and get it over with? Chicago is getting a lot of value with that already.

Plus, I want that Marquette connection.
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Online Ilikesports17

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Pretty difficult to get emotional on this subject when we don't know what the total package is that the Bulls are asking for. If Ainge has already decided to give up a Nets pick and Brown, then I can see his reluctance to want to give up his starting SF on one of the best long term contracts in the league to fill out that package. An expiring contract like Zeller should be enough to get that deal. If the package is just the Nets pick and filler, then holding back Crowder is hurting the team, throw him in.

If the package is....

then......

I could go on for all sorts of combos. Best to wait to see what the deal is before getting upset about who is or isn't in the trade.
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Offline fairweatherfan

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

No one's debating whether it'd be worth trading Crowder as the only asset of significance for Butler.

Most seem to be assuming we're already willing to give up multiple assets (some combo of a BRK pick, Bradley, Brown, Smart, + salary filler) and we're talking about Crowder on top of that.

Problem is, of course, we just don't know what's already on the table. But it's assumed it's already quite a bit. 

Most importantly, of course, is that our opinions matter not at all when it comes to whether the trade happens or not. So the whole debate is moot and can be treated as just people laying out their perspectives.

Online coffee425

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
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Offline RockinRyA

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Yeah, I feel like we shouldn't give up Crowder as well.

Really good player on a VERY CHEAP contract? I know we're getting an All-Star in return, but if we're talking about luxury tax management, it's easier when you have a starting caliber player making so little.

Why can't it just be AB + Jaylen + salary filler + a Brooklyn 1st + another 1st and get it over with? Chicago is getting a lot of value with that already.

Plus, I want that Marquette connection.

Butler is an all-star, but the upgrade wont be that huge that it merits trading the whole Plan B.

Offline BaronV

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He has won nothing. Except the hearts of the Boston faithful.

I guess the turnaround this team has experienced since the Rondo trade is 'nothing' then?  Or in your estimation, the only way to get to a championship-level team is the way it was done with the RA KG trades?  Instant gratification? 

I can't find the stats to back this up quickly, but I recall that from the time of that trade, the Cs had the best or 2nd best record in the league for the rest of that season, and got into the playoffs as the 7th seed in a year that had started with predictions of a high lottery pick.  And obviously have gotten better both seasons since then. 

The real world isn't fantasy sports or video games.  You can't just plug stats into holes in a roster and win.  Personalities matter.  That's why replacing a malcontent like Rondo with a leader like Crowder made such a big difference, and it's why I'm glad Danny and Brad are making such an effort to build a long-term roster made up of coachable, smart, high character guys and are avoiding talented but unstable players like Cousins. 

Here's an example from another sport.  In the mid-90s, there were three great shortstops in the American League... ARod, Jeter, and Nomar. 

One of them was arguably the best player in the game, but was an unmitigated jerk who teammates hated and was all about himself.  He got the biggest contract in history and won the MVP twice for a last place team.  His team then paid another team to take him away.   

Another was one of the best pure hitters in his generation, but had a prima donna attitude.  He didn't seem well-liked by his teammates or management, and was eventually unceremoniously dumped from his team, which went on to win a historic championship the year he was traded. 

The third guy has 5 rings and will be a first ballot hall of famer after playing his whole career with the same team, which had zero losing seasons in his 20 year career.  His teams weren't always filled with huge stars, and he never put up the best numbers at his position, but he made all the right plays, said all the right things, and came through in the clutch.  He's known as The Captain, and inspired his teams to victory.

I see Crowder as this team's Jeter.  His leadership and attitude makes everyone else work harder and better.  Smart is similar.  You can't take a guy like that away and expect the winning to continue, just because you plug in a guy who scores a few more points or grabs a few more rebounds. 




Online wdleehi

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY


They can waive players at the end of their bench easily enough. 

Chicago has 14 guys under contract.

Can say bye to Zipper.

Trade Butler, take back three players.

Knicks: Irving, Drummond, Marcus Morris, S. Muhammad, C. Lee, Sullinger, Hield, M. Chriss , V. Carter, T. Zeller, N. Cole, T. Prince, Livio Jean-Charles, Tyler Ulis, N. Collison

Offline Shamrocker

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Quote
‏@KevinOConnorNBA

Bulls need consensus for a Butler deal. Source: Paxson sees the writing on the wall but Forman likes the status quo.

https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/834418955326402567

Offline BaronV

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

No one's debating whether it'd be worth trading Crowder as the only asset of significance for Butler.

Most seem to be assuming we're already willing to give up multiple assets (some combo of a BRK pick, Bradley, Brown, Smart, + salary filler) and we're talking about Crowder on top of that.

Problem is, of course, we just don't know what's already on the table. But it's assumed it's already quite a bit. 

Most importantly, of course, is that our opinions matter not at all when it comes to whether the trade happens or not. So the whole debate is moot and can be treated as just people laying out their perspectives.

Yup.  If it was Crowder as the centerpiece of the deal for Butler, yeah, you probably do that.  But as a piece of the deal, no, given the intangibles he brings.  Try and get them to take someone else, an extra pick, etc. 

Online Ilikesports17

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Online Ilikesports17

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He has won nothing. Except the hearts of the Boston faithful.

I guess the turnaround this team has experienced since the Rondo trade is 'nothing' then?  Or in your estimation, the only way to get to a championship-level team is the way it was done with the RA KG trades?  Instant gratification? 

I can't find the stats to back this up quickly, but I recall that from the time of that trade, the Cs had the best or 2nd best record in the league for the rest of that season, and got into the playoffs as the 7th seed in a year that had started with predictions of a high lottery pick.  And obviously have gotten better both seasons since then. 

The real world isn't fantasy sports or video games.  You can't just plug stats into holes in a roster and win.  Personalities matter.  That's why replacing a malcontent like Rondo with a leader like Crowder made such a big difference, and it's why I'm glad Danny and Brad are making such an effort to build a long-term roster made up of coachable, smart, high character guys and are avoiding talented but unstable players like Cousins. 

Here's an example from another sport.  In the mid-90s, there were three great shortstops in the American League... ARod, Jeter, and Nomar. 

One of them was arguably the best player in the game, but was an unmitigated jerk who teammates hated and was all about himself.  He got the biggest contract in history and won the MVP twice for a last place team.  His team then paid another team to take him away.   

Another was one of the best pure hitters in his generation, but had a prima donna attitude.  He didn't seem well-liked by his teammates or management, and was eventually unceremoniously dumped from his team, which went on to win a historic championship the year he was traded. 

The third guy has 5 rings and will be a first ballot hall of famer after playing his whole career with the same team, which had zero losing seasons in his 20 year career.  His teams weren't always filled with huge stars, and he never put up the best numbers at his position, but he made all the right plays, said all the right things, and came through in the clutch.  He's known as The Captain, and inspired his teams to victory.

I see Crowder as this team's Jeter.  His leadership and attitude makes everyone else work harder and better.  Smart is similar.  You can't take a guy like that away and expect the winning to continue, just because you plug in a guy who scores a few more points or grabs a few more rebounds.
Worth noting that Jimmy Butler is a notoriously hard-worker, who like Crowder was overlooked his whole career.

You swap the two (obviously with other pieces like Nets '17 going in the deal as well) and I really dont see the teams culture changing.

Also, the Jeter A-rod Nomar thing is a bit ridiculous.

The talent disparity between the two teams A-Rod and Jeter played for is massive.

Nomar is whatever, but Id say his issues were more with staying healthy than they were anything else. He had a very short prime.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Offline Mattybriand

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.


Love your Quote dude!

Btw I'm hesitant on any deal that just results in us losing to Lebron

I think ainge wants to go to war with these guys!

IT4
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Crowder
Smart

Offline iadera

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Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)

Now he's halting a Butler trade because he doesn't want to give up Crowder - who plays the same position?!?!?!

AHHHH Danny, why must you be so infuriating!!!!

Only thing I can think of is maybe they want Bradley and Crowder and the 2018 1st, and Ainge is willing to offer Bradley, but he's not willing to offer both Bradley and Crowder - in which case I would understand.

It makes sense, as Bradley and Crowder make about $15M between them, so that would match Butler's contract.

 

I must agree. Crowder  and 2018 1st has to be dealt, but I assume they also want Bradley or Jaylen. That would be way too much.

Offline iadera

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All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.


Love your Quote dude!

Btw I'm hesitant on any deal that just results in us losing to Lebron

I think ainge wants to go to war with these guys!

IT4
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Crowder
Smart

That's not realistic in any scenario. You have to give someone from Brad-Crow-Smart trio.

Offline oldtype

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We would only be slightly better swapping out Crowder for Butler imo.  Shouldn't budge from anything more than Bradley + Brown + pick.


Great words from a great man