Author Topic: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?  (Read 10440 times)

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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2017, 08:59:22 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Shot selection

I think Paul George settles for long jump shots too much instead of driving to the basket. You can see this in his shot distribution vs Hayward or J.Butler.

P.George - 852 FGAs

At rim = 115 attempts
 3-10 foot = 93
10-15 foot = 110
15-23 foot = 243
3 pointers = 294


G.Hayward - 752 FGAs

At rim = 174 attempts
 3-10 foot = 95
10-15 foot = 90
15-23 foot = 146
3 pointers = 247

J.Butler - 823 FGAs

At rim = 222 attempts
 3-10 foot = 100
10-15 foot = 136
15-23 foot = 195
3 pointers = 170

---------------------------

I think Paul George settles too much on offense. Takes too many long jumpers. Too many contested shots. Does not utilize his athletic advantages to get to the basket. You can see P.George has taken the most shots overall but the fewest at the basket. Almost as little as half as many as Jimmy Butler. Both Butler and Hayward make a more concentrated effort to take the ball to the basket and attack the rim.

You can see this in FT attempts too. P.George averages 4.9 FTAs per game. Hayward is at 6.6 FTAs while Butler leads the way with 9.6 FTAs per game.

Turnover Prone

George is also the most turnover prone. 2.8 turnovers per game vs 2.1 turnovers for Butler and 1.9 turnovers for Hayward.

Which is even more [dang]ing when you look at those shot distribution figures and see how many long shots Paul George is attempting vs shots around the basket.

There is no reason to turn the ball over on 3 point attempts. So the turnover percentage vs two point shots is even worse for George.

Paul George = 11.4 two point FGAs vs 2.8 turnovers = 24.6%
Gordon Hayward = 10.4 two point FGAs vs 1.9 turnovers = 18.2%
Jimmy Butler = 13.1 two point FGAs vs 2.1 turnovers = 16%

Include FTs in numbers (as 0.44 a possession)

Paul George = 11.4 two point FGAs + 4.9 FTAs vs 2.8 turnovers = 20.7%
Gordon Hayward = 10.4 two point FGAs + 6.6 FTAs vs 1.9 turnovers = 14.3%
Jimmy Butler = 13.1 two point FGAs + 9.6 FTAs vs 2.1 turnovers = 12.1%



Those are the things that bug me about Paul George's offensive game and why I do not think he is as good offensively as either Butler or Hayward. He settles for too many long jump shots, he doesn't attack the basket well enough, he does not utilize his athletic advantages to get to the basket for higher percentage shots, in turn does not get enough FTAs and he makes too many turnovers. Too many bad decisions on offense.

These are valid points.

Though I still feel a lot more comfortable with Paul George battling Lebron James / Kevin Durant then I feel about Gordon Hayward battling those guys.

I feel George has a chance to win that matchup on any given night, whereas I feel Hayward is going to lose it 9 times out of 10 - at least.

It's possible that we might actually be a better regular season team with Hayward. 

But I think we would be a MUCH better playoff team with George.

But if we're signing GH, that means we also still have Crowder to play D, no?  If we trade for PG, good chance he's gone in that deal.

But Paul George is just as good defensively as Crowder, and just as good offensively as Hayward, so it doesn't really matter all that much. 

Personally my preferred outcome would be Butler + Hayward, since I feel they compliment each other better then George + Hayward.

But honestly I'd be thrilled either way.

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2017, 09:03:26 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.
 

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2017, 09:04:01 AM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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IF we get any of Hayward, George, or Butler BS will turn them into a shooter. Past stats mean nothing.

Just look at Marcus Smart and Sully. They weren't/aren't the best shooters, especially from 3, but still took more shots then they should have. They will be molded into the system, not the other way around.
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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2017, 02:29:31 PM »

Offline max215

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Just checking back on this now. There are way too many excellent posts to reply to, so I'll hand out some TP's to express gratitude for the discussion.
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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2017, 02:33:10 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Statistically they are about the same. PG13 isn't having his best season.

Part of that could be his frustration with Indiana, especially the last 10 games (and they ended first half of season on a 6 game losing streak).

That's why they are shopping their first round pick and targeting Okafor, and now also shopping PG13 around to see his value.

But you can't bank on Hayward being available this summer either.

Worst case scenario, you have a fair offer for PG13, don't take it, hope for Hayward, Utah keeps him, and then C's get nothing (no GH or PG13).
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2017, 02:44:38 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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No question.
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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2017, 02:44:46 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.
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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2017, 02:52:31 PM »

Offline saltlover

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 03:06:57 PM »

Offline footey

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Saltlover, just curious, are you a labor lawyer?  I never knew anyone so well versed in the collective bargaining agreement.  Such a great resource here.  Many thanks!!

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 03:21:24 PM »

Offline saltlover

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Saltlover, just curious, are you a labor lawyer?  I never knew anyone so well versed in the collective bargaining agreement.  Such a great resource here.  Many thanks!!

Haha, nope.  Economist with an accounting background.  The NBA salary cap is the best constrained optimization problem in pro sports.  I was worried that the new CBA would make it less fun, but thankfully it hasn't!

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 04:20:29 PM »

Offline Big333223

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Paul has made three All NBA (3rd) Teams and 4 All Star teams to Hayward's 1 All Star team. They're pretty close this season even though Paul George is having a down year and Hayward is having the best of his career. I think that says it.
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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 06:42:33 PM »

Offline max215

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Paul has made three All NBA (3rd) Teams and 4 All Star teams to Hayward's 1 All Star team. They're pretty close this season even though Paul George is having a down year and Hayward is having the best of his career. I think that says it.

I'm not sure where this "down year" thing is coming from, but several people have mentioned it. Paul George is probably having the best year of his career, at least offensively.
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Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2017, 06:59:29 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Saltlover, just curious, are you a labor lawyer?  I never knew anyone so well versed in the collective bargaining agreement.  Such a great resource here.  Many thanks!!

Haha, nope.  Economist with an accounting background.  The NBA salary cap is the best constrained optimization problem in pro sports.  I was worried that the new CBA would make it less fun, but thankfully it hasn't!
@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Saltlover, just curious, are you a labor lawyer?  I never knew anyone so well versed in the collective bargaining agreement.  Such a great resource here.  Many thanks!!

 ;D

Saltlover, I do appreciate your help and your insightful mind!

__





Getting back on topic, George can go absolutely bonkers in the playoffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlFS6aylFgw

This video alone enough should tell you what George himself, can honestly do.
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Can't define how I be dropping these mockeries."

Is the glass half-full or half-empty?
It's based on your perspective, quite simply
We're the same and we're not; know what I'm saying? Listen
Son, I ain't better than you, I just think different

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2017, 07:03:46 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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Paul has made three All NBA (3rd) Teams and 4 All Star teams to Hayward's 1 All Star team. They're pretty close this season even though Paul George is having a down year and Hayward is having the best of his career. I think that says it.

I'm not sure where this "down year" thing is coming from, but several people have mentioned it. Paul George is probably having the best year of his career, at least offensively.

Care to try to substantiate that?

Re: Is Paul George Better Than Gordon Hayward?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 07:10:05 PM »

Offline blink

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@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Saltlover, just curious, are you a labor lawyer?  I never knew anyone so well versed in the collective bargaining agreement.  Such a great resource here.  Many thanks!!

Haha, nope.  Economist with an accounting background.  The NBA salary cap is the best constrained optimization problem in pro sports.  I was worried that the new CBA would make it less fun, but thankfully it hasn't!
@Crimson - you aren't far off on numbers as Crowder and Bradley make a combined $15.6M next year. Butler will make $18.7M and George will make $19.3M.

Unfortunately, the only way to make the numbers work in order to trade for either player and sign a max guy is to trade away our '17 BKN pick rather than the '18 BKN pick since that will account another several million, but that seems like a steep price to pay. I guess if you are 'guaranteed' both Hayward and Butler/George, then the price doesn't seem so steep. Still, though, there would be a lot of disappointed people in Boston

True, but that makes not a lot of difference really compared to where we are if we don't do the trade.

Doing the trade or not doing it is a difference of what - $3M or $4M in cap space? Surely that isn't the difference between being able to sign a max FA versus not being able to sign a max FA.

Even if that was the difference, we could easily clear the extra by moving or waiving a couple of young guys like Mickey or Green, right? 

Or even better - throw Mickey and Green (or similar) into the trade as filler so that the Bulls are taking back $18M instead of $15.5M, and now we aren't taking back any more then we are sending out...and our cap situation is not affected at all.

That's not how it works.  The cap room we're projected to have already assumes that we drop the holds for free agents like Amir, Kelly, Jonas, Green, and Young.  Then, we decline to pick up non-guaranteed seasons for Zeller, Mickey, and Jackson.  We could clear up a couple million more with a Rozier trade, but other than that you're talking getting rid of major assets (IT, Horford, AB, Crowder, Brown, or Smart) in order to clear more room.

I really wish the answer were as simple as your suggestions, but it's not.  Lots of people have pored lots of time looking into the cap numbers for this year, and unfortunately we're not all missing something that easy.  The only (reasonable) way to improve our cap situation this summer while getting Butler or George now is by trading away 3 of Crowder, Bradley, Brown, and the 2017 pick.

Want to clarify one thing: Jackson is not presumed to be released, as releasing him would actually cause us to lose cap space.  The guaranteed portion of his salary ($650k) plus the cap hold of $815k for having one less player under 12 on the roster exceeds his salary next season of $1.38 million.  Trading Jackson before next summer saves the team about $570k in cap space.  Not enough to matter for this particular idea, but it's not impossible that it won't wind up mattering for what the Celtics ultimately do.

Saltlover, just curious, are you a labor lawyer?  I never knew anyone so well versed in the collective bargaining agreement.  Such a great resource here.  Many thanks!!

 ;D

Saltlover, I do appreciate your help and your insightful mind!

__





Getting back on topic, George can go absolutely bonkers in the playoffs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlFS6aylFgw

This video alone enough should tell you what George himself, can honestly do.

ok that highlight reel actually got me a bit excited.  put me in the PG13 camp if we can maintain some assets.