New Woj info on Celtics from 'The Vertical' Facebook Live

[BitterJim]

Woj does a terrific job breaking news, but I dont respect his basketball opinions regarding the Celtics.

He has more connections to league execs and insiders than anyone. There's a reason he is the first to break every trade.

And he keeps up those relationships with his speculation and analysis pieces.  If he's giving verifiable information (like breaking news of trades or picks), then he's a great source.  When he's not, he's just as reliable as any other analyst

[Geo123]

Woj does a terrific job breaking news, but I dont respect his basketball opinions regarding the Celtics.

Woj's opinions on the Celtics and other teams are based on his contacts who are GM's and player personnel people.  These opinions are league wide not just his own. 

[footey]

It is interesting to think about the top players in the draft being a position the Celtics may not need.

Butler is not a position of "need" either but that doesn't stop anyone from proposing trades to get him.

Personally feel Ainge will draft Jackson even with 1st pick though maybe trade down one or two spots if he can. Fultz does not strike me as an Ainge type player.

[Phantom255x]

What I found interesting is when Woj said that if Philly enter as a three team deal with Okafor involved, Bulls could make the deal for Okafor + picks + other young players and a three team deal could benefit all parties.

It might be our ticket to Butler if there is a chance. Otherwise wait until the summer and try again.

[TheSundanceKid]

Why would a trade be harder in the summer.

We will have max cap space and simply absorb a contract while only giving up picks....

Yeah, this is absurd.  They will also still have Zeller's non-guaranteed $8 million, and Mickey's non-guaranteed $1.5 million, even if not having cap space somehow became a problem.  And certainly the Bulls would take back some salary, be it in the form of Jae Crowder, Avery Bradley, Jaylen Brown, or the Brooklyn 1st.

Exactly, I don't see this as a problem at all. There is always the option of signing the Nets pick to a contract first and using their salary in the trade, like Cleveland did with Wiggins.

It's actually a very legitimate route for us. We could renegotiate with IT using our cap space and then trade for someone like Butler or George by matching salary pretty easily

[LGC88]

Woj has zero sources in Boston, that's a fact.
He only have other GM's opinion and their bias side of the story.
So his opinion is not good at all.
I only trust Woj when it's a news.

GMs are trying to fleece Danny because they think he has no choice but to convert his nets picks.
They are wrong!

The best return a star player get is a 1st overall pick (wiggins) in the entire history. And it was an overpay because of Lebron pushing.

What makes you think Danny will give a nets pick + a 3rd pick (Brown) and one of the best 2 way role player (AB, Crowder) for Butler. Non sense.
Danny will never overpay that way.
He can simply draft and wait that for example Indiana panic next year when they know PG will walk away in FA. And next year we will give peanuts when it happen.

So my understanding is, other GMs are screwed if they think they have leverage, because in reality, DANNY has all the leverage.
Remember, 2nd in a east, Smart and Brown developing + 2 studs coming next 2 seasons.

I will add that the argument that IT and Horford are reaching their end of prime is non sense as well. If you can't beat Cavs and GS, you have no choice but to be patient anyway (with or without Butler)

[SparzWizard]

The Celtics are trading Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, their own 2017 first round pick, 2018 Brooklyn first round pick for Luol Deng and Brandon Ingram league source tells @TheVertical.

****?

EDIT: some guy on facebook in a covert Celtics group page made that post. must've been my overreaction.

[crimson_stallion]

It is interesting to think about the top players in the draft being a position the Celtics may not need.

Butler is not a position of "need" either but that doesn't stop anyone from proposing trades to get him.

Personally feel Ainge will draft Jackson even with 1st pick though maybe trade down one or two spots if he can. Fultz does not strike me as an Ainge type player.

That's irrelevant.

Butler plays SG or PF, and our current players at those positions are Bradley and Crowder - neither of whom are stars, nor ever will be. 

Butler is a star.  He's a major upgrade over either of those two players, and he's on a very good, long term contract. If Butler is coming here, then chances are one of those guys is going out - hence "not being a position of need" is a moot point.  He's be replacing the player at that position, almost certainly.
 
On the other hand our current PG is Isaiah Thomas.  He is a core piece to this team moving forward.  He is our best player.  He's the second leading scorer in the NBA.  He's an All-Star.

This isn't %12 or #16 picks were talking about here.  When you draft a guy in the top 2 of the draft, there are certain ambitions / expectations that come along with that. Pick a guy that high and you are telling the world that "I think this guy has future star potential, and we want to build around him".  If we used our pick to draft a PG at #1 or #2 it's sending a message to Thomas that he's position is under threat.

Look what happened when we drafted Smart - a month or two later Rondo was traded away. 

Thomas, Bradley and Crowder all have contracts expiring before too long.  Draft a PG at #2, and maybe that's enough to convince Thomas that he's under threat.  Maybe it's enough to convince him to not re-sign here, and to walk. 

Even if you draft him with the aim of using him at SG, maybe that's enough to convince Bradley to walk. 

This is why the 2017 pick is far more useful to Boston as an asset then it is as an actual draft pick, and I've been saying this all along. 

The top 4 or 5 guys in the draft are pretty much all point guards.  You aren't going to draft a #5 talent at #1 just because you don't need a PG, because that would be idiotic - you always take the best player available.  So Boston would need to take a PG. 

That leaves you with Thomas, Rozier, Smart, Jackson, Bradley, Young, Green and Fultz (for arguments sake) - that's 8 guards on the roster. You obviously ditch jackson and Young.  Probably ditch green.  That's still 5 guards.  Now Rozier won't get playing time, period...and you have Thomas, Smart, Bradley and Fultz all fighting for playing time.

Fultz won't be able to get more then 20 minutes probably, which limits the ability to see what he can do.  Smart will get cut down to probably 20 minutes.  Thomas will get cut down to 28 minutes or so, which will annoy him because we need him on the court...you end up with a massive mess.

The only way it makes sense to draft Fultz this year is if you trade away Bradley+Smart or Crowder+Smart.  This way you open up the chance for Fultz to come in and get plenty of minutes as a 6th man backing up Thomas and whoever we have at SG. 

So, it makes perfect sense to either trade the pick, or move players in order to make the pick more rational.

Lets say we trade the 2018 brooklyn pick, Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart to Chicago for Butler. 

Now we have Thomas, Butler and Crowder starting on the perimeter, with Fultz giving us 25-30 minutes off the bench at the PG and SG spot.  That works.

Or if we trade Crowder and Smart for Carmelo...now we have Thomas, Bradley and Melo starting on the perimeter, with Fultz giving us 25-30 minutes off the bench at the PG and SG spot.  That works.

If we keep Bradley and we keep Smart and we draft Fultz, then it makes no sense.  It just wont work.

[TheSundanceKid]

If we keep Bradley and we keep Smart and we draft Fultz, then it makes no sense.  It just wont work.

Luckily we don't have to worry about that before the deadline. If Fultz and Ball are as attractive prospects as people make out then they will have even more value on draft night. The fact is we don't need to make panic moves and overpay for stars. Draft night and summer 2017 have long been the prime time for finishing the build as a contender, the work DA is putting in now will benefit him then.

[crimson_stallion]

Why would a trade be harder in the summer.

We will have max cap space and simply absorb a contract while only giving up picks....

The biggest argument for going hard with cap space in free agency seems to be that we don't have to give up players.

But to my understanding, next year's salary cap is currently expected to be $102M:
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/7/7/12118546/nba-salary-cap-2017-low-102-million-lockout

That means an average max salary would be somewhere around $25M, which means we would need to keep our cap down to $75M in order to have enough space for a max free agent. 

Here are our committed salaries for next year:
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

We have the following guys expiring:
* Johnson ($12M)
* Jerebko ($5M)
* Olynyk ($4.3M qualifying offer)
* Young ($1.8M)
* Green ($1.4M)
* Mickey ($1.2M)

If we renounce all of those guys (to clear cap holds) that leaves us with $70M. 

This means we can basically afford to keep MAYBE one of those guys, at most...maybe not even that, because if we kept any of those guys it would probably be Olynyk, and he may well get an offer for more then $5M elsewhere...which we would have to match or let him walk. 

That's not even considering the stash guys - Jabusele and Zizic.  If we bring those guys back, they'll be on the books too.  It also doesn't factor in the cap hold for our top 4 pick, who would demand a significant contract himself ($4M - $7M depending on position)

So the idea of us being able to sign a guy like Hayward in free agency without giving up any current players....that sounds like a fairy-tale dream to me.  We'd have to give up two or three rotation players just to generate enough cap space to sign a max player.

Now for argument's sake, lets say we do that.  We get Hayward (which is likely the best player we have a shot at).  We draft Fultz.  We let Jerebko, Olynyk and Amir walk.

What happens to our roster when we have:

Thomas
Bradley
Crowder
Hayward
Fultz
Smart
Brown
Rozier

That's 8 guys all fighting for minutes across 3 positions....and to compound the issue, we've just lost three bigs. How does this help us?

On the other hand, what if we trade Bradley ($8M), Smart ($3.5M), Jerebko ($5M) and the 2018 Brooklyn 1st to Chicago for Jimmy Butler. 

Now, Smart and Bradley would have combined for $11.5M in salary next year anyway, so has no impact on our cap flexibility.

Jerebko would have expired, so that's about $5M of cap flexibility we are actually giving up.  So in this case we bring in Butler, which sacrifices $5M in cap space...so instead of $25M in cap space, we have $20M.  Big deal, we could always find somebody who will take a couple of young players for nothing (e..g trade Rozier and Young to some team for a 2nd round pick).  Then we're back up to $25M cap space again.

Now we can have Butler, AND sign a max free agent, AND still have our Fultz - who we would now actually be able to find playing time for.

So somebody explain to me WHY we would not want to make a trade now?

[crimson_stallion]

If we keep Bradley and we keep Smart and we draft Fultz, then it makes no sense.  It just wont work.

Luckily we don't have to worry about that before the deadline. If Fultz and Ball are as attractive prospects as people make out then they will have even more value on draft night. The fact is we don't need to make panic moves and overpay for stars. Draft night and summer 2017 have long been the prime time for finishing the build as a contender, the work DA is putting in now will benefit him then.

We have a couple of days left before the trade deadline.

Cousins is already gone - massive loss.
Ibaka is off the list - that one isn't so big a deal.

Who knows who else will be off the list if Ainge decides to just wait it out.  Maybe Melo somehow ends up in LAC because nobody else would bite.  Maybe some other team makes a massive offer to Chicago and walks off with Butler.

Who knows who will be available on draft day, that would be worth trading Fultz for.

More importantly, what if we get the usual Celtics luck, the ping pong balls don't go out way, and we end up with the #3 or #4 pick?

We saw the draft day fiascos this year when we got pick #3.  It seems the best offer out there was Jahlil Okafor - nobody was interested.

This isn't a world where you can just wait and wait leisurely until the deal you're seeking drops in price, or until you've waited to see how all your 'assets' pan out.  Getting the opportunity to land a star or superstar doesn't happen every day.  When those opportunities arise, you need to "strike while the kettle is hot" as the saying goes.

Because you never know what tomorrow will hold. 

[jdz101]

I highly doubt Woj has watched a lot of Lonzo Ball if he thinks us drafting Ball while Isaiah is still there will be a huge problem for the Celtics.

Im not sure trading the chance at Lonzo Ball ++ for Jimmy Butler because the 'positions work better and you dont want to upset Isaiah' is a worthwhile reason either. 

[Irish Stew]

Why would a trade be harder in the summer.

We will have max cap space and simply absorb a contract while only giving up picks....

The biggest argument for going hard with cap space in free agency seems to be that we don't have to give up players.



But to my understanding, next year's salary cap is currently expected to be $102M:
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/7/7/12118546/nba-salary-cap-2017-low-102-million-lockout

That means an average max salary would be somewhere around $25M, which means we would need to keep our cap down to $75M in order to have enough space for a max free agent. 

Here are our committed salaries for next year:
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

We have the following guys expiring:
* Johnson ($12M)
* Jerebko ($5M)
* Olynyk ($4.3M qualifying offer)
* Young ($1.8M)
* Green ($1.4M)
* Mickey ($1.2M)

If we renounce all of those guys (to clear cap holds) that leaves us with $70M. 

This means we can basically afford to keep MAYBE one of those guys, at most...maybe not even that, because if we kept any of those guys it would probably be Olynyk, and he may well get an offer for more then $5M elsewhere...which we would have to match or let him walk. 

That's not even considering the stash guys - Jabusele and Zizic.  If we bring those guys back, they'll be on the books too.  It also doesn't factor in the cap hold for our top 4 pick, who would demand a significant contract himself ($4M - $7M depending on position)

So the idea of us being able to sign a guy like Hayward in free agency without giving up any current players....that sounds like a fairy-tale dream to me.  We'd have to give up two or three rotation players just to generate enough cap space to sign a max player.

Now for argument's sake, lets say we do that.  We get Hayward (which is likely the best player we have a shot at).  We draft Fultz.  We let Jerebko, Olynyk and Amir walk.

What happens to our roster when we have:

Thomas
Bradley
Crowder
Hayward
Fultz
Smart
Brown
Rozier

That's 8 guys all fighting for minutes across 3 positions....and to compound the issue, we've just lost three bigs. How does this help us?

On the other hand, what if we trade Bradley ($8M), Smart ($3.5M), Jerebko ($5M) and the 2018 Brooklyn 1st to Chicago for Jimmy Butler. 

Now, Smart and Bradley would have combined for $11.5M in salary next year anyway, so has no impact on our cap flexibility.

Jerebko would have expired, so that's about $5M of cap flexibility we are actually giving up.  So in this case we bring in Butler, which sacrifices $5M in cap space...so instead of $25M in cap space, we have $20M.  Big deal, we could always find somebody who will take a couple of young players for nothing (e..g trade Rozier and Young to some team for a 2nd round pick).  Then we're back up to $25M cap space again.

Now we can have Butler, AND sign a max free agent, AND still have our Fultz - who we would now actually be able to find playing time for.

So somebody explain to me WHY we would not want to make a trade now?

I have Zeller with a non-guaranteed contract for next year, which if correct, would add $8 million to the free agency pot.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

I just noticed that Jackson's $1,384,750 contract is also apparently non-guaranteed.

[crimson_stallion]

Why would a trade be harder in the summer.

We will have max cap space and simply absorb a contract while only giving up picks....

The biggest argument for going hard with cap space in free agency seems to be that we don't have to give up players.



But to my understanding, next year's salary cap is currently expected to be $102M:
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/7/7/12118546/nba-salary-cap-2017-low-102-million-lockout

That means an average max salary would be somewhere around $25M, which means we would need to keep our cap down to $75M in order to have enough space for a max free agent. 

Here are our committed salaries for next year:
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/boston_celtics/

We have the following guys expiring:
* Johnson ($12M)
* Jerebko ($5M)
* Olynyk ($4.3M qualifying offer)
* Young ($1.8M)
* Green ($1.4M)
* Mickey ($1.2M)

If we renounce all of those guys (to clear cap holds) that leaves us with $70M. 

This means we can basically afford to keep MAYBE one of those guys, at most...maybe not even that, because if we kept any of those guys it would probably be Olynyk, and he may well get an offer for more then $5M elsewhere...which we would have to match or let him walk. 

That's not even considering the stash guys - Jabusele and Zizic.  If we bring those guys back, they'll be on the books too.  It also doesn't factor in the cap hold for our top 4 pick, who would demand a significant contract himself ($4M - $7M depending on position)

So the idea of us being able to sign a guy like Hayward in free agency without giving up any current players....that sounds like a fairy-tale dream to me.  We'd have to give up two or three rotation players just to generate enough cap space to sign a max player.

Now for argument's sake, lets say we do that.  We get Hayward (which is likely the best player we have a shot at).  We draft Fultz.  We let Jerebko, Olynyk and Amir walk.

What happens to our roster when we have:

Thomas
Bradley
Crowder
Hayward
Fultz
Smart
Brown
Rozier

That's 8 guys all fighting for minutes across 3 positions....and to compound the issue, we've just lost three bigs. How does this help us?

On the other hand, what if we trade Bradley ($8M), Smart ($3.5M), Jerebko ($5M) and the 2018 Brooklyn 1st to Chicago for Jimmy Butler. 

Now, Smart and Bradley would have combined for $11.5M in salary next year anyway, so has no impact on our cap flexibility.

Jerebko would have expired, so that's about $5M of cap flexibility we are actually giving up.  So in this case we bring in Butler, which sacrifices $5M in cap space...so instead of $25M in cap space, we have $20M.  Big deal, we could always find somebody who will take a couple of young players for nothing (e..g trade Rozier and Young to some team for a 2nd round pick).  Then we're back up to $25M cap space again.

Now we can have Butler, AND sign a max free agent, AND still have our Fultz - who we would now actually be able to find playing time for.

So somebody explain to me WHY we would not want to make a trade now?

I have Zeller with a non-guaranteed contract for next year, which if correct, would add $8 million to the free agency pot.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

I just noticed that Jackson's $1,384,750 contract is also apparently non-guaranteed.

If that's the case, then I don't see the issue. 

We could trade Bradley, Smart and 2018 Brk pick for Butler and we'd still have enough cap space to sign Hayward outright.

Then we would have Butler, Hayward, Crowder and Brown all fighting for SG and SF minutes, but that's fine - we could easily move crowder for a big to bolster our frontcourt.

[Kadin]

The Celtics are trading Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, their own 2017 first round pick, 2018 Brooklyn first round pick for Luol Deng and Brandon Ingram league source tells @TheVertical.

****?

EDIT: some guy on facebook in a covert Celtics group page made that post. must've been my overreaction.

lol, should be obvious that this was fake. :p That's the kind of deal a guy gets fired immediately for.