Author Topic: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency  (Read 12744 times)

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Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2017, 12:53:39 AM »

Offline jdz101

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2017, 03:44:28 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

God only knows...

I guess the same reason so many people were excited about paying $26M - $30M to Al Horford for the next four years. 

That deal is going to look fantastic a couple of years from now when we need to find money to re-sign guys like Thomas, Bradley and Crowder - who have all played better then Horford so far this year.

But it's the Ainge/Stevens train.  Talent isn't important, all we need to do is find good locker-room guys who have polite attitudes who don't upset the status quo. 

Long as we do that, who cares if we get knocked out by the Cavs in 4 or 5 games.  We will feel good knowing our team is full of good sportsmen who don't upset anybody.

I mean who would want guys who have a chip on their shoulder, or guys with challenging attitudes?  We never had any success with guys like Rajon Rondo, Kevin Garnett, Kendrick Perkins, etc. 

Likewise who would want to acquire talent via trades?  We've never won a title by pulling in guys like Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett via trades, have we?   

Oh, wait...

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2017, 04:45:30 AM »

Offline chambers

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2017, 05:06:28 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2017, 05:52:45 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Then you are losing Bradley, Smart and the option of Ayton/Doncic/whoever.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2017, 06:53:14 AM »

Offline chambers

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Then you are losing Bradley, Smart and the option of Ayton/Doncic/whoever.

And you're losing the Brooklyn 18' pick. In the meantime, the price for Butler will probably go down as things go further south in Chicago and using that Brooklyn 18' pick will be one of Danny's best pieces of ammo to trade for Butler next season when his price is probably lower, if we don't sign Hayward. Hell we could theoretically sign Hayward this offseason and then trade for Butler in 2018.


Danny values Smart more than you think too. He ain't going out in a Butler trade.
Smart and Brown are two guys that Brad and Danny are in love with.
I think Crowder and Bradley both go out before Smart does, considering Jaylen's assumed fast growth (at least as a versatile defender).
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2017, 06:54:21 AM »

Offline Kadin

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Well hayward is obviously a nice upgrade from Jae Crowder, but what do we do with him if we pick him up? Do we trade Crowder or hope that relegating him to a bench role doesn't kill team chemistry?

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2017, 07:11:44 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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Well hayward is obviously a nice upgrade from Jae Crowder, but what do we do with him if we pick him up? Do we trade Crowder or hope that relegating him to a bench role doesn't kill team chemistry?

Our first bench option as SF and PF (stretch 4). He'd play 25 minutes per game at least. I think Jaylen can successfully play SG until he gets bigger in two-three years where he may be a full time SF.

@Chambers, I also said that we'd lose the 18 Brooklyn pick, but effective into players  :)

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2017, 07:25:10 AM »

Offline The Oracle

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Well hayward is obviously a nice upgrade from Jae Crowder, but what do we do with him if we pick him up? Do we trade Crowder or hope that relegating him to a bench role doesn't kill team chemistry?

Our first bench option as SF and PF (stretch 4). He'd play 25 minutes per game at least. I think Jaylen can successfully play SG until he gets bigger in two-three years where he may be a full time SF.

@Chambers, I also said that we'd lose the 18 Brooklyn pick, but effective into players  :)
In today's NBA there isn't a lot of difference between SG and SF.  There is no reason why you couldn't start both Hayward and Crowder together as your wings.  In fact I much prefer bigger players on both wings.  With I.T. as your PG the Celtics should surround him with as much size, speed and length as possible.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2017, 07:26:15 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Then you are losing Bradley, Smart and the option of Ayton/Doncic/whoever.

Who cares though!?! 

Don't you guys get it?

You can't play Thomas, and Bradley, and Smart, and Fultz/Ball, and Hayward, and Crowder, and Brown.  We can't find playing time for all of those guys, it's not feasible!!!! 

And who cares about giving up one of the Brooklyn picks? We have the second best record in the East.  We are one (at the most, two) players away from being able to beat Cleveland in a 7 game series and play in the NBA finals.   

We have a #3 pick (Jaylen Brown, 20 years old).  We'd have a top 2 pick (Fultz / Ball, 19 years old).  We have Zizic and Yabusele (both 20 years old).  How many prospects do you guys need to feel secure about this team's future????

We don't need 8 perimeter players.  We can't play 8 perimeter players.  We don't need 5 prospects - but it would be nice to have two or three who can develop and carry the torch once Horford and Thomas start to slow down.  We already would have 3 or 4 guys in that position.

You're not making ANY significant sacrifices here.  You're giving up one high lottery pick that we wouldn't need.  You're giving up two guards that we wouldn't need.  You're getting back an All-Star...arguably a superstar.  Who cares if you give up a couple of decent players and a good pick to get it?

The problem here that I'm seeing is that the Celtics fans, like Ainge, have gotten too [dang] greedy.  They see we have all these assets, and they want to hold on to them forever.  They want to just add start after star without having to give up anything.

But trying to be too greedy can blow up in your face.  What if the pick slides to #3 or #4 and drops in value significantly.  What if Hayward, Millsap and Griffin re-sign with their existing teams. What if the Nets sign a quality free agent who boots their win column JUST enough to pus them up out of the bottom 5, causing the value of the 2018 pick to plummet.

Suddenly everybody will be looking back saying "far out, I'm so cut we didn't pull a trade when we had the chance". 

But if you do trade for Butler with the deal I just suggested earlier, then what is the worst case?  All the free agents sign elsewhere, ok.  We still have a starting lineup with Thomas, Butler, Crowder, and Horford with about $25M in cap space to add another solid player (like Ibaka, etc) who could solidify the team - or we can hold that cap space until 2018 and go after somebody like Cousins - who will not be more likely to sign with the team now that we have two and a half All Stars on the team (Thomas, Butler and Horford).

In fact, another point guys might be missing.  If we add Butler, we now have a core of Thomas, Butler and Horford.  How much more appealing does that make Boston as a free agent destination?  Suddenly we are one star SF of big away from being good enough to battle the Warriors in a 7 game series.  Maybe that's enough to sway a guy like Hayward or Griffin to come here in this free agency.

But if we don't make a move, and we go into free agency with just Thomas, Bradley, Crowder and Horford...maybe a guy like Griffin or Hayward looks at that roster and says "hmm...they have potential, but I don't feel like joining that team will be enough to put us on the level of the Cavs or Warriors..."

Maybe that's all the difference it takes for one of those guys to sign elsewhere, rather then coming here.

You have to look at the big picture, man.

Jimmy Butler is only making $17M a year.  He's locked in to that deal for the next four years.  That contract lines up perfectly with Horford's.  That is at least two quality players that we would have locked up for the next four years.  Now thrown in Thomas - he's only locked up for two years, but he's the face of this franchise right now.  He'll return as long as the franchise is willing to bring him back.

So free agents will look at the Celtics and say:

"Hey - they have three really good players as the core of that team.  They have at least 2 or three promising young prospects.  They have nowhere to go but up...I want to be a part of this."

Take away Butler from that scenario, and the entire perception changes.  Suddenly they are looking at the Celtics as a team that has two really good players, and a lot of young prospects / picks.  They say:

"That's a pretty good team with a bright future, but they won't be contenders until their prospects develop...that could take years."


Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2017, 07:29:42 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Well hayward is obviously a nice upgrade from Jae Crowder, but what do we do with him if we pick him up? Do we trade Crowder or hope that relegating him to a bench role doesn't kill team chemistry?

Our first bench option as SF and PF (stretch 4). He'd play 25 minutes per game at least. I think Jaylen can successfully play SG until he gets bigger in two-three years where he may be a full time SF.

@Chambers, I also said that we'd lose the 18 Brooklyn pick, but effective into players  :)

And then he'll be sooking on the bench because he'll be upset that he's been replaced in the starting lineup, he'll be feeling backstabbed, he'll bring down morale, and eventually he'll probably demand a trade.

Didn't you see the way he responded after that little event with the fans cheering an opposing team's player?  First thing he did is get defensive and say "well if you want him more then me then I'll go" basically.   

You think that guy is going to respond well to being demoted to a bench role at the age of 27 to some hotshot free agent who isn't even necessarily that much better then he is?  It's not like you're replacing him with Durant, or Lebron, or even Paul George.  You're replacing him with fringe-star Gordon Hayward.  I doubt he'd be very accepting of that.

You'd need to trade him.  You wouldn't be able to find playing time for both Jaylen Brown and Crowder anyway.  Only way you'll get Crowder 6th man minutes is if he's playing SF and PF, in which case there are no minutes for Jaylen Brown unless you play brown at SG...in which case there are no minutes for either Smart or Fultz. 

Doesn't matter how you look at it, it'll never work. 

You need to move bodies to make way for new bodies.  As nice as it would be to be able to have an entire bench full of starting caliber players, the real world just doesn't work that way.  Player ego's don't allow it.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 07:34:47 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2017, 07:48:18 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Then you are losing Bradley, Smart and the option of Ayton/Doncic/whoever.

And you're losing the Brooklyn 18' pick. In the meantime, the price for Butler will probably go down as things go further south in Chicago and using that Brooklyn 18' pick will be one of Danny's best pieces of ammo to trade for Butler next season when his price is probably lower, if we don't sign Hayward. Hell we could theoretically sign Hayward this offseason and then trade for Butler in 2018.


Danny values Smart more than you think too. He ain't going out in a Butler trade.
Smart and Brown are two guys that Brad and Danny are in love with.
I think Crowder and Bradley both go out before Smart does, considering Jaylen's assumed fast growth (at least as a versatile defender).

I think you are dreaming, honestly, if you think Butler's price is ever going to get lower. 

The Bulls want to rebuild. 

Butler is a 27 year old guy who has already made multiple All-Star teams and multiple all-Defensive teams. He's exactly the type of player a team in this position would want to try to build around.

He's on a bargain contract that he's locked in to over the next 4 years, so it would be years before he would have any leverage to try to force a trade.  He's stuck there for as long as they want him. 

There is absolutely NO incentive for Chicago to move Butler unless they are going to get assets back that are (combined) more valuable to them then he is.

This is not a Kevin Love to Cleveland situation.  You don't have a star on an expiring contract who is threatening to sign elsewhere if you don't trade him. 

If I were the Bulls, there is no way my price on Butler would ever drop.  If a team didn't offer me what I wanted, I'd just hold on to him and hope that by the time his next free agency comes up, I've built up a competitive enough team to convince him to re-sign and stay.

Jimmy Butler is a proven commodity.  The guy is averaging 24 / 6 / 5 and is recognised as one of the top defenders at his position.  He's put up three consecutive seasons of All-Star calibre basketball.  There is no gamble here - you know what you're getting, the the Bulls know that.

You want to take a gamble on the 2018 pick instead?  Go ahead.  Maybe you get a Jahlil Okafor.  Maybe you get a Nerlens Noel.  Maybe you get a Victor Oladipo, or an Aaron Gordon, or an Otto Porter. 

Hell maybe you get lucky and you get an Andrew Wiggins, Kyrie Irving - hmm, those guys still aren't as good as Jimmy Butler. 

But if you want to take that chance on the miniscule possibility that you strike absolute freak luck and get a KAT or an Anthony Davis or a Demarcus Cousins...then go right ahead.  Come back two years from now, and we'll compare players.  We'll see if your guy is better then our 24/6/5 All-Defensive Teamer.  I'll take that bet any day.

If I were the Bulls GM - that's what I would be saying, as I stop just short of laughing hysterically at your feeble attempts to bargain me down.   

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2017, 07:57:09 AM »

Online BitterJim

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Then you are losing Bradley, Smart and the option of Ayton/Doncic/whoever.

And you're losing the Brooklyn 18' pick. In the meantime, the price for Butler will probably go down as things go further south in Chicago and using that Brooklyn 18' pick will be one of Danny's best pieces of ammo to trade for Butler next season when his price is probably lower, if we don't sign Hayward. Hell we could theoretically sign Hayward this offseason and then trade for Butler in 2018.


Danny values Smart more than you think too. He ain't going out in a Butler trade.
Smart and Brown are two guys that Brad and Danny are in love with.
I think Crowder and Bradley both go out before Smart does, considering Jaylen's assumed fast growth (at least as a versatile defender).

I think you are dreaming, honestly, if you think Butler's price is ever going to get lower. 

The Bulls want to rebuild. 

Butler is a 27 year old guy who has already made multiple All-Star teams and multiple all-Defensive teams. He's exactly the type of player a team in this position would want to try to build around.

He's on a bargain contract that he's locked in to over the next 4 years, so it would be years before he would have any leverage to try to force a trade.  He's stuck there for as long as they want him. 

There is absolutely NO incentive for Chicago to move Butler unless they are going to get assets back that are (combined) more valuable to them then he is.

This is not a Kevin Love to Cleveland situation.  You don't have a star on an expiring contract who is threatening to sign elsewhere if you don't trade him. 

If I were the Bulls, there is no way my price on Butler would ever drop.  If a team didn't offer me what I wanted, I'd just hold on to him and hope that by the time his next free agency comes up, I've built up a competitive enough team to convince him to re-sign and stay.

Jimmy Butler is a proven commodity.  The guy is averaging 24 / 6 / 5 and is recognised as one of the top defenders at his position.  He's put up three consecutive seasons of All-Star calibre basketball.  There is no gamble here - you know what you're getting, the the Bulls know that.

You want to take a gamble on the 2018 pick instead?  Go ahead.  Maybe you get a Jahlil Okafor.  Maybe you get a Nerlens Noel.  Maybe you get a Victor Oladipo, or an Aaron Gordon, or an Otto Porter. 

Hell maybe you get lucky and you get an Andrew Wiggins, Kyrie Irving - hmm, those guys still aren't as good as Jimmy Butler. 

But if you want to take that chance on the miniscule possibility that you strike absolute freak luck and get a KAT or an Anthony Davis or a Demarcus Cousins...then go right ahead.  Come back two years from now, and we'll compare players.  We'll see if your guy is better then our 24/6/5 All-Defensive Teamer.  I'll take that bet any day.

If I were the Bulls GM - that's what I would be saying, as I stop just short of laughing hysterically at your feeble attempts to bargain me down.   

Not making a move now doesn't mean that your only choice is to build through the draft. You can wait until the lottery and start talking then. Or until after free agency. Or you can wait until another pkayer becomes available (due to questions about them resigning, questions about the team they're on being able to afford them, etc.)

It isn't now or never when it comes to trading the picks, and waiting until after the draft lottery is probably best for both sides, too (since it gives the pick a known value)
I'm bitter.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2017, 07:58:30 AM »

Online BitterJim

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Well hayward is obviously a nice upgrade from Jae Crowder, but what do we do with him if we pick him up? Do we trade Crowder or hope that relegating him to a bench role doesn't kill team chemistry?

Our first bench option as SF and PF (stretch 4). He'd play 25 minutes per game at least. I think Jaylen can successfully play SG until he gets bigger in two-three years where he may be a full time SF.

@Chambers, I also said that we'd lose the 18 Brooklyn pick, but effective into players  :)

And then he'll be sooking on the bench because he'll be upset that he's been replaced in the starting lineup, he'll be feeling backstabbed, he'll bring down morale, and eventually he'll probably demand a trade.

Didn't you see the way he responded after that little event with the fans cheering an opposing team's player?  First thing he did is get defensive and say "well if you want him more then me then I'll go" basically.   

You think that guy is going to respond well to being demoted to a bench role at the age of 27 to some hotshot free agent who isn't even necessarily that much better then he is?  It's not like you're replacing him with Durant, or Lebron, or even Paul George.  You're replacing him with fringe-star Gordon Hayward.  I doubt he'd be very accepting of that.

You'd need to trade him.  You wouldn't be able to find playing time for both Jaylen Brown and Crowder anyway.  Only way you'll get Crowder 6th man minutes is if he's playing SF and PF, in which case there are no minutes for Jaylen Brown unless you play brown at SG...in which case there are no minutes for either Smart or Fultz. 

Doesn't matter how you look at it, it'll never work. 

You need to move bodies to make way for new bodies.  As nice as it would be to be able to have an entire bench full of starting caliber players, the real world just doesn't work that way.  Player ego's don't allow it.

You could also just, you know, start Hayward at SG and Crowder at SF
I'm bitter.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2017, 08:11:35 AM »

Offline saltlover

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I don't think he makes the 3rd All-NBA team, which is much better for the Celtics.

Hard to get excited for this guy, after you just said that man.

Why was anyone excited about Gordon Hayward? Gobert is the train that drives that team.

He's improving and he's arguably a top 20 player now.
It's not that he's a superstar, I think the main attraction is that we can sign him with cap space rather than sending out Brooklyn picks or assets.

I guess a way to look at it is like this:

-have Jimmy Butler and lose a Brooklyn pick (maybe Fultz?)
-have Gordon Hayward and keep Fultz (or whoever) and whoever.

How do you know we couldn't:

1) Acquire Butler for 2018 Brooklyn 1st + Bradley + Smart + Jerebko
2) Draft Fultz on draft day using the 2017 Brooklyn 1st
3) Trade Crowder to the Pelicans for a pick and cap relief (they will have cap space and will be desperate for impact players to add to that Cousins / Davis core)
4) Sign Hayward in free agency

Then you have Thomas, and Butler, and Hayward, and Fultz.

But you lose that chance if you don't make the move for Butler now, because once we draft Fultz the Bulls will be smart enough to refuse any deals that don't include him - just like the Timberwolves refused any Cleveland offers unless they included Wiggins.  If you are the Bulls that's a no brainer.

Then you are losing Bradley, Smart and the option of Ayton/Doncic/whoever.

And you're losing the Brooklyn 18' pick. In the meantime, the price for Butler will probably go down as things go further south in Chicago and using that Brooklyn 18' pick will be one of Danny's best pieces of ammo to trade for Butler next season when his price is probably lower, if we don't sign Hayward. Hell we could theoretically sign Hayward this offseason and then trade for Butler in 2018.


Danny values Smart more than you think too. He ain't going out in a Butler trade.
Smart and Brown are two guys that Brad and Danny are in love with.
I think Crowder and Bradley both go out before Smart does, considering Jaylen's assumed fast growth (at least as a versatile defender).

I think you are dreaming, honestly, if you think Butler's price is ever going to get lower. 

The Bulls want to rebuild. 

Butler is a 27 year old guy who has already made multiple All-Star teams and multiple all-Defensive teams. He's exactly the type of player a team in this position would want to try to build around.

He's on a bargain contract that he's locked in to over the next 4 years, so it would be years before he would have any leverage to try to force a trade.  He's stuck there for as long as they want him. 

There is absolutely NO incentive for Chicago to move Butler unless they are going to get assets back that are (combined) more valuable to them then he is.

This is not a Kevin Love to Cleveland situation.  You don't have a star on an expiring contract who is threatening to sign elsewhere if you don't trade him. 

If I were the Bulls, there is no way my price on Butler would ever drop.  If a team didn't offer me what I wanted, I'd just hold on to him and hope that by the time his next free agency comes up, I've built up a competitive enough team to convince him to re-sign and stay.

Jimmy Butler is a proven commodity.  The guy is averaging 24 / 6 / 5 and is recognised as one of the top defenders at his position.  He's put up three consecutive seasons of All-Star calibre basketball.  There is no gamble here - you know what you're getting, the the Bulls know that.

You want to take a gamble on the 2018 pick instead?  Go ahead.  Maybe you get a Jahlil Okafor.  Maybe you get a Nerlens Noel.  Maybe you get a Victor Oladipo, or an Aaron Gordon, or an Otto Porter. 

Hell maybe you get lucky and you get an Andrew Wiggins, Kyrie Irving - hmm, those guys still aren't as good as Jimmy Butler. 

But if you want to take that chance on the miniscule possibility that you strike absolute freak luck and get a KAT or an Anthony Davis or a Demarcus Cousins...then go right ahead.  Come back two years from now, and we'll compare players.  We'll see if your guy is better then our 24/6/5 All-Defensive Teamer.  I'll take that bet any day.

If I were the Bulls GM - that's what I would be saying, as I stop just short of laughing hysterically at your feeble attempts to bargain me down.   

Butler's price will absolutely get lower.  He is a borderline All-NBA player who for the next two seasons will be getting paid less than 2/3 of the max salary.  His trade value lies in both parts of that last sentence.  He's probably right around his peak performance as a player, so there isn't likely to be much price increase due to that factor.  But as his contract has less time on it, that value goes down, and so too does his trade value.

Now, it may be that the Bulls have no intention of ever trading Butler while he's on this contract, and so they don't care if his trade value decreases, but there's been a little too much smoke around him the past couple of seasons to believe there's no fire to that rumor.