Author Topic: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency  (Read 12873 times)

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Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2017, 03:36:45 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I know this may sound silly to some, but even if Hayward does make an All-NBA team, is Utah definitely willing to pay him the 'super-max'? I like Hayward as much as the next guy (and especially like him since he is a realistic target for the Cs this off-season), but $207M (is that right??) is a lot to commit to a player of his caliber.

Utah isn't exactly swimming in revenue and they have some decisions to make regarding player contracts. Hayward may seem like a slam dunk, but it's possible that just may be too much money for them to commit.

Yes, Utah would give him the most they can. Most of their contracts expire after the 2017-2018 season, so by the time they can give Hayward such an offer, they'll have a pretty clean cap and should be able to manage things.

If Utah doesn't think they'll offer him the deal if eligible, they should trade Hayward today.

Cousins situation shows us that of small-market teams could potentially get cold feet at the idea of offering a super-max to anyone short of a Lebron/Durant/Curry level slam dunk superstar.  Hayward is a good player, but $200m over five years tied up in him is not a trivial investment.

The cold feet of Sacramento comes from multiple places:

1) They're ridiculously fickle, and have had no long-term organizational plan.  Committing to a player for 6 years was not something they could handle.
2) What are they committing to? This is a team that hasn't had a winning record in many years, and pretty much had no long-term pieces aside from Cousins.

Utah, meanwhile, has been focused on building from within for quite some time -- certainly since they traded Deron.  They have organizational stability and direction.  They've already locked up another cornerstone player in Gobert for four more years after this one.  They've got some other young players who are coming around, like Hood and Lyles.  And they're a team that has a real chance at home court advantage for the first round of the playoffs.  Do they have Golden State's future in front of them? Likely not.  But could they be a team that is annually in the top half of the West over the life of Hayward's next deal?  Absolutely.  And with smart roster management, they can afford to pay him.  It will be more difficult for them than some other teams, but it's already more difficult, and you don't give up just because it's not easy.

If they give Hayward the full designated max, that's 65m (or 65%+ of their salary cap) tied up in just Hayward and Gobert well into 2021 (George Hill is probably walking away with another 15% or so for 4 years this summer as well.)  That's not trivial, and is going to severely impact their ability to improve beyond their core.  Designated max contracts are very, very difficult to trade as well, because it's not easy to match 40m in salary no matter how much you want a player.

I'm not saying they're not going to do it, but it's a huge, huge, huge, huge risk.  You're essentially locking into Hayward and Gobert as your top two players forever.

It's a fair bit less than 65%, fwiw.  It obviously depends upon how the cap rises, but in 2018-2019 those two would take up 57%, as Gobert is already signed to a deal that's a little under the 25% max.  It may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but that's over an $8 million difference, which can either be used to help keep around some of their secondary pieces like Hood, or improve their depth.

And as for not improving beyond their core -- the Jazz mostly hope that their core improves enough on its own.  That is their strategy and has to be their strategy, primarily.  It's a very tight line that they need to walk, but the odds that any lack of success is caused by stretching the budget to pay Hayward an extra $5-6 million a year are far exceeded by the odds that a lack of success will come from having Hayward leave and not being able to fill the void his departure creates.

Not saying that they're 100% not going to give him the designated max.  Obviously there are reasons why they might make that decision.

Just giving you arguments as to why it's not a forgone conclusion like you seem to be saying.


Great words from a great man

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2017, 03:52:21 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I know this may sound silly to some, but even if Hayward does make an All-NBA team, is Utah definitely willing to pay him the 'super-max'? I like Hayward as much as the next guy (and especially like him since he is a realistic target for the Cs this off-season), but $207M (is that right??) is a lot to commit to a player of his caliber.

Utah isn't exactly swimming in revenue and they have some decisions to make regarding player contracts. Hayward may seem like a slam dunk, but it's possible that just may be too much money for them to commit.

Yes, Utah would give him the most they can. Most of their contracts expire after the 2017-2018 season, so by the time they can give Hayward such an offer, they'll have a pretty clean cap and should be able to manage things.

If Utah doesn't think they'll offer him the deal if eligible, they should trade Hayward today.

Cousins situation shows us that of small-market teams could potentially get cold feet at the idea of offering a super-max to anyone short of a Lebron/Durant/Curry level slam dunk superstar.  Hayward is a good player, but $200m over five years tied up in him is not a trivial investment.

The cold feet of Sacramento comes from multiple places:

1) They're ridiculously fickle, and have had no long-term organizational plan.  Committing to a player for 6 years was not something they could handle.
2) What are they committing to? This is a team that hasn't had a winning record in many years, and pretty much had no long-term pieces aside from Cousins.

Utah, meanwhile, has been focused on building from within for quite some time -- certainly since they traded Deron.  They have organizational stability and direction.  They've already locked up another cornerstone player in Gobert for four more years after this one.  They've got some other young players who are coming around, like Hood and Lyles.  And they're a team that has a real chance at home court advantage for the first round of the playoffs.  Do they have Golden State's future in front of them? Likely not.  But could they be a team that is annually in the top half of the West over the life of Hayward's next deal?  Absolutely.  And with smart roster management, they can afford to pay him.  It will be more difficult for them than some other teams, but it's already more difficult, and you don't give up just because it's not easy.

If they give Hayward the full designated max, that's 65m (or 65%+ of their salary cap) tied up in just Hayward and Gobert well into 2021 (George Hill is probably walking away with another 15% or so for 4 years this summer as well.)  That's not trivial, and is going to severely impact their ability to improve beyond their core.  Designated max contracts are very, very difficult to trade as well, because it's not easy to match 40m in salary no matter how much you want a player.

I'm not saying they're not going to do it, but it's a huge, huge, huge, huge risk.  You're essentially locking into Hayward and Gobert as your top two players forever.

It's a fair bit less than 65%, fwiw.  It obviously depends upon how the cap rises, but in 2018-2019 those two would take up 57%, as Gobert is already signed to a deal that's a little under the 25% max.  It may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but that's over an $8 million difference, which can either be used to help keep around some of their secondary pieces like Hood, or improve their depth.

And as for not improving beyond their core -- the Jazz mostly hope that their core improves enough on its own.  That is their strategy and has to be their strategy, primarily.  It's a very tight line that they need to walk, but the odds that any lack of success is caused by stretching the budget to pay Hayward an extra $5-6 million a year are far exceeded by the odds that a lack of success will come from having Hayward leave and not being able to fill the void his departure creates.

Not saying that they're 100% not going to give him the designated max.  Obviously there are reasons why they might make that decision.

Just giving you arguments as to why it's not a forgone conclusion like you seem to be saying.

It's a foregone conclusion.  It's insulting to players to not get offered the most they can get.  Look at Horford -- the Hawks were hesitant about going five years, so he left to sign with the Celtics for four years, even though that's something the Hawks were totally ready to sign up for.  If Hayward makes All-NBA this year, and either chooses to not opt out, or signs 1+1 deal to remain in Utah, and then the Jazz don't come through, he will leave, and the organization will get a bad rep with players.  If they don't feel they can make that offer if he qualifies, the Jazz should trade him, because he'll walk without it.

It's not even about the money -- it's about the pride.  Why stay with an organization that tells you you're not good enough to pay as much as they can, when there's another team out there offering you as much as they're allowed?

And Utah already has negotiated away a little good willl with Hayward the last time he hit free agency, when they told him to go out and find a max offer.  He did, and they matched, but it was a shorter deal than they could have signed him to on their own.  He's not restricted this time, and if they let him go find another offer, they won't be given the opportunity to match.

Again-- if Utah isn't certain that they want to lock him up if he qualifies, they should trade him now while they can.  It's their last chance.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Hayward can't sign a supermax contract extension this summer unless he makes the All NBA team this year.

Here is an article with his signing options.  He has basically 5 legit options.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42729511&nid=304&title=gordon-hayward-has-a-lot-of-options-for-his-next-big-contract

2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2017, 03:55:38 PM »

Offline oldtype

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I know this may sound silly to some, but even if Hayward does make an All-NBA team, is Utah definitely willing to pay him the 'super-max'? I like Hayward as much as the next guy (and especially like him since he is a realistic target for the Cs this off-season), but $207M (is that right??) is a lot to commit to a player of his caliber.

Utah isn't exactly swimming in revenue and they have some decisions to make regarding player contracts. Hayward may seem like a slam dunk, but it's possible that just may be too much money for them to commit.

Yes, Utah would give him the most they can. Most of their contracts expire after the 2017-2018 season, so by the time they can give Hayward such an offer, they'll have a pretty clean cap and should be able to manage things.

If Utah doesn't think they'll offer him the deal if eligible, they should trade Hayward today.

Cousins situation shows us that of small-market teams could potentially get cold feet at the idea of offering a super-max to anyone short of a Lebron/Durant/Curry level slam dunk superstar.  Hayward is a good player, but $200m over five years tied up in him is not a trivial investment.

The cold feet of Sacramento comes from multiple places:

1) They're ridiculously fickle, and have had no long-term organizational plan.  Committing to a player for 6 years was not something they could handle.
2) What are they committing to? This is a team that hasn't had a winning record in many years, and pretty much had no long-term pieces aside from Cousins.

Utah, meanwhile, has been focused on building from within for quite some time -- certainly since they traded Deron.  They have organizational stability and direction.  They've already locked up another cornerstone player in Gobert for four more years after this one.  They've got some other young players who are coming around, like Hood and Lyles.  And they're a team that has a real chance at home court advantage for the first round of the playoffs.  Do they have Golden State's future in front of them? Likely not.  But could they be a team that is annually in the top half of the West over the life of Hayward's next deal?  Absolutely.  And with smart roster management, they can afford to pay him.  It will be more difficult for them than some other teams, but it's already more difficult, and you don't give up just because it's not easy.

If they give Hayward the full designated max, that's 65m (or 65%+ of their salary cap) tied up in just Hayward and Gobert well into 2021 (George Hill is probably walking away with another 15% or so for 4 years this summer as well.)  That's not trivial, and is going to severely impact their ability to improve beyond their core.  Designated max contracts are very, very difficult to trade as well, because it's not easy to match 40m in salary no matter how much you want a player.

I'm not saying they're not going to do it, but it's a huge, huge, huge, huge risk.  You're essentially locking into Hayward and Gobert as your top two players forever.

It's a fair bit less than 65%, fwiw.  It obviously depends upon how the cap rises, but in 2018-2019 those two would take up 57%, as Gobert is already signed to a deal that's a little under the 25% max.  It may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but that's over an $8 million difference, which can either be used to help keep around some of their secondary pieces like Hood, or improve their depth.

And as for not improving beyond their core -- the Jazz mostly hope that their core improves enough on its own.  That is their strategy and has to be their strategy, primarily.  It's a very tight line that they need to walk, but the odds that any lack of success is caused by stretching the budget to pay Hayward an extra $5-6 million a year are far exceeded by the odds that a lack of success will come from having Hayward leave and not being able to fill the void his departure creates.

Not saying that they're 100% not going to give him the designated max.  Obviously there are reasons why they might make that decision.

Just giving you arguments as to why it's not a forgone conclusion like you seem to be saying.

It's a foregone conclusion.  It's insulting to players to not get offered the most they can get.  Look at Horford -- the Hawks were hesitant about going five years, so he left to sign with the Celtics for four years, even though that's something the Hawks were totally ready to sign up for.  If Hayward makes All-NBA this year, and either chooses to not opt out, or signs 1+1 deal to remain in Utah, and then the Jazz don't come through, he will leave, and the organization will get a bad rep with players.  If they don't feel they can make that offer if he qualifies, the Jazz should trade him, because he'll walk without it.

It's not even about the money -- it's about the pride.  Why stay with an organization that tells you you're not good enough to pay as much as they can, when there's another team out there offering you as much as they're allowed?

And Utah already has negotiated away a little good willl with Hayward the last time he hit free agency, when they told him to go out and find a max offer.  He did, and they matched, but it was a shorter deal than they could have signed him to on their own.  He's not restricted this time, and if they let him go find another offer, they won't be given the opportunity to match.

Again-- if Utah isn't certain that they want to lock him up if he qualifies, they should trade him now while they can.  It's their last chance.

If they decide not to give him the contract that's exactly what they'll do: trade him before the deadline next year.  (He most likely will not be eligible for supermax this summer)


Great words from a great man

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2017, 09:45:38 PM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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IF Hayward does get the DLE that would be good for the Celtics.  It would be bad for the Jazz.  The JAzz would have to shell out more money than Hayward is worth.  It becomes a similar situation to DeMarcus Cousins-Kings.  The Jazz might be forced to trade their best player because they won't be able to compete at a high level if they tie up too much cap in one player.

This CBA really has messed things up for the Small Market teams.  I'm starting to think that the CBA negotiations aren't productive at all

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2017, 09:59:08 PM »

Offline Diggles

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Small market/big market there still is a salary cap.  And teams that draft better get birdrights.   So I still think its fair no matter what size market your team is in.....  Or am I missing something besides endorsements.   But those normally come if you can play and have a outgoing personality.   
Diggles

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2017, 09:59:50 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I know this may sound silly to some, but even if Hayward does make an All-NBA team, is Utah definitely willing to pay him the 'super-max'? I like Hayward as much as the next guy (and especially like him since he is a realistic target for the Cs this off-season), but $207M (is that right??) is a lot to commit to a player of his caliber.

Utah isn't exactly swimming in revenue and they have some decisions to make regarding player contracts. Hayward may seem like a slam dunk, but it's possible that just may be too much money for them to commit.

Yes, Utah would give him the most they can. Most of their contracts expire after the 2017-2018 season, so by the time they can give Hayward such an offer, they'll have a pretty clean cap and should be able to manage things.

If Utah doesn't think they'll offer him the deal if eligible, they should trade Hayward today.

Cousins situation shows us that of small-market teams could potentially get cold feet at the idea of offering a super-max to anyone short of a Lebron/Durant/Curry level slam dunk superstar.  Hayward is a good player, but $200m over five years tied up in him is not a trivial investment.

The cold feet of Sacramento comes from multiple places:

1) They're ridiculously fickle, and have had no long-term organizational plan.  Committing to a player for 6 years was not something they could handle.
2) What are they committing to? This is a team that hasn't had a winning record in many years, and pretty much had no long-term pieces aside from Cousins.

Utah, meanwhile, has been focused on building from within for quite some time -- certainly since they traded Deron.  They have organizational stability and direction.  They've already locked up another cornerstone player in Gobert for four more years after this one.  They've got some other young players who are coming around, like Hood and Lyles.  And they're a team that has a real chance at home court advantage for the first round of the playoffs.  Do they have Golden State's future in front of them? Likely not.  But could they be a team that is annually in the top half of the West over the life of Hayward's next deal?  Absolutely.  And with smart roster management, they can afford to pay him.  It will be more difficult for them than some other teams, but it's already more difficult, and you don't give up just because it's not easy.

If they give Hayward the full designated max, that's 65m (or 65%+ of their salary cap) tied up in just Hayward and Gobert well into 2021 (George Hill is probably walking away with another 15% or so for 4 years this summer as well.)  That's not trivial, and is going to severely impact their ability to improve beyond their core.  Designated max contracts are very, very difficult to trade as well, because it's not easy to match 40m in salary no matter how much you want a player.

I'm not saying they're not going to do it, but it's a huge, huge, huge, huge risk.  You're essentially locking into Hayward and Gobert as your top two players forever.

It's a fair bit less than 65%, fwiw.  It obviously depends upon how the cap rises, but in 2018-2019 those two would take up 57%, as Gobert is already signed to a deal that's a little under the 25% max.  It may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but that's over an $8 million difference, which can either be used to help keep around some of their secondary pieces like Hood, or improve their depth.

And as for not improving beyond their core -- the Jazz mostly hope that their core improves enough on its own.  That is their strategy and has to be their strategy, primarily.  It's a very tight line that they need to walk, but the odds that any lack of success is caused by stretching the budget to pay Hayward an extra $5-6 million a year are far exceeded by the odds that a lack of success will come from having Hayward leave and not being able to fill the void his departure creates.

Not saying that they're 100% not going to give him the designated max.  Obviously there are reasons why they might make that decision.

Just giving you arguments as to why it's not a forgone conclusion like you seem to be saying.

It's a foregone conclusion.  It's insulting to players to not get offered the most they can get.  Look at Horford -- the Hawks were hesitant about going five years, so he left to sign with the Celtics for four years, even though that's something the Hawks were totally ready to sign up for.  If Hayward makes All-NBA this year, and either chooses to not opt out, or signs 1+1 deal to remain in Utah, and then the Jazz don't come through, he will leave, and the organization will get a bad rep with players.  If they don't feel they can make that offer if he qualifies, the Jazz should trade him, because he'll walk without it.

It's not even about the money -- it's about the pride.  Why stay with an organization that tells you you're not good enough to pay as much as they can, when there's another team out there offering you as much as they're allowed?

And Utah already has negotiated away a little good willl with Hayward the last time he hit free agency, when they told him to go out and find a max offer.  He did, and they matched, but it was a shorter deal than they could have signed him to on their own.  He's not restricted this time, and if they let him go find another offer, they won't be given the opportunity to match.

Again-- if Utah isn't certain that they want to lock him up if he qualifies, they should trade him now while they can.  It's their last chance.

If they decide not to give him the contract that's exactly what they'll do: trade him before the deadline next year.  (He most likely will not be eligible for supermax this summer)

I think you're missing out on something here.

Firstly, he will unequivocally be ineligible this summer.  A player has to have completed his 8th or 9th season for the deal.  Hayward, at seven seasons, is not eligible.

Secondly, Hayward has a player option his summer.  He will decline the option and enter free agency.  If he thinks he's going to be eligible for the super max next summer (and he will be if he makes All-NBA this season) he will either sign a 1-year contract at the max with a player option for the second year (what Durant signed) with the Jazz, or sign a longer deal elsewhere (probably a 3-year deal with a player option for year 4, like Horford).  If he signs the 1-year deal with the Jazz, he can veto any trade next season.   The Jazz cannot, as you suggest in this case, trade him next year instead.

Again, if the Jazz are unwilling to give Hayward that supermax deal, they should move him now. They will otherwise lose him for nothing.  Again, I feel that they're 100% willing to do so (even if somewhat hoping against it) and Hayward won't be moved.  But trading him next year is not an option.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2017, 10:03:44 PM »

Offline mahcus smaht

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Small market/big market there still is a salary cap.  And teams that draft better get birdrights.   So I still think its fair no matter what size market your team is in.....  Or am I missing something besides endorsements.   But those normally come if you can play and have a outgoing personality.
its not that guys dont want to be in small markets and more that small markets are more wary of the luxury tax and being way over the cap which is probably what would happen to most teams that give out these supermax type contracts.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2017, 10:44:11 PM »

Offline chambers

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So if Hayward doesn't make an All NBA team this year, then our xhances of signing him go up?
Except that Utah can still offer a 5 year deal vs a 4 year deal that we can offer?
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2017, 10:51:39 PM »

Offline saltlover

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So if Hayward doesn't make an All NBA team this year, then our xhances of signing him go up?
Except that Utah can still offer a 5 year deal vs a 4 year deal that we can offer?

Correct.  If Hayward misses out on that, our chances go up considerably.  The 5-year deal and larger raises still give Utah a monetary advantage, but not nearly what they have otherwise.  So hopefully he's the 7th best forward this year.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2017, 11:14:39 PM »

Offline chambers

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So if Hayward doesn't make an All NBA team this year, then our xhances of signing him go up?
Except that Utah can still offer a 5 year deal vs a 4 year deal that we can offer?

Correct.  If Hayward misses out on that, our chances go up considerably.  The 5-year deal and larger raises still give Utah a monetary advantage, but not nearly what they have otherwise.  So hopefully he's the 7th best forward this year.

Going to be pretty close. Who votes for all NBA teams?
Are we certain he's a forward?
Locks to get in ahead of him:
Lebron
Kawahi
Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis  (made last all nba team as PF)
Missing anyone? Is derozan an SF or SG?

Pretty close to Hayward:
Paul George
Draymond Green
Lamarcus Aldridge (Maybe not this year).
Seems they put Cousins as a forward last year too wbich helps our cause.


"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2017, 11:18:00 PM »

Offline Chris22

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We need a big, not Hayward.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2017, 11:27:33 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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So if Hayward doesn't make an All NBA team this year, then our xhances of signing him go up?
Except that Utah can still offer a 5 year deal vs a 4 year deal that we can offer?

Correct.  If Hayward misses out on that, our chances go up considerably.  The 5-year deal and larger raises still give Utah a monetary advantage, but not nearly what they have otherwise.  So hopefully he's the 7th best forward this year.

Going to be pretty close. Who votes for all NBA teams?
Are we certain he's a forward?
Locks to get in ahead of him:
Lebron
Kawahi
Kevin Durant
Anthony Davis  (made last all nba team as PF)
Missing anyone? Is derozan an SF or SG?

Pretty close to Hayward:
Paul George
Draymond Green
Lamarcus Aldridge (Maybe not this year).
Seems they put Cousins as a forward last year too wbich helps our cause.
Butler and Giannis are forwards and have should be ahead of Hayward.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2017, 11:39:19 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Can t keep IT and Bradley .....and go after this guy

Everybody wants a max

Are the owners going to be willing to pay luxury tax like Cavs do ? 

We still.need a REAL star big .

If we are not careful in a couple years the budget will fly of the scale.

Re: Kyler - Hayward to only meet with C's and Jazz during free agency
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2017, 12:23:21 AM »

Offline playdream

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I got an idea, we can trade AB+Crowder+1Nets+couple 1sts for Butler or George(better)
Sign Hayward(we got rings+coach+$$)  and try get blue-collar big

IT O   (can take a discount)
Smart D (won't get the max if he isn't worth it)
Hayward O m(~MAX)
Butler or George  O+D (under contract)
Horford/Yabu   (blue-collar)
Amir/Zizic        (blue-collar)
That's a very balance team and is able to beat anyone include the Warriors
And we still keep 1 Nets pick and Brown going forward