Author Topic: Obamacare/Trumpcare  (Read 7569 times)

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Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2017, 06:38:32 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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It's hard for me to assess the new bill because they're pushing it through without a CBO score, but that alone tells me it's not going to score well, at all. Estimates are that it may remove coverage from as many as 10-15 million people.

It's not a surprise this bill is getting attacked from the left, but it's also getting pilloried by much of the right - the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Progress, and other conservative groups have already come out against it. I have a hard time seeing a bill that could earn a majority of R support - too many reps in the "total repeal, screw the consequences" and "taking health coverage from 10s of millions is political suicide" camps. In theory this should create incentives to reach across the aisle and find support among the Dems, but in reality haha.

Yeah, the bill sucks, and the "phases" aspect is puzzling. There are sensible GOP reforms - buying insurance across state lines, malpractice reform, lifting some regulations - but those reforms aren't present here.

One quibble: "taking" coverage from 10+ million people isn't necessarily accurate, because many of those people are young and healthy, and don't want to buy insurance. But, whether it's 10 million or 5 million, you're right: many people will lose coverage, especially older Americans.



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Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2017, 07:02:01 PM »

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It's hard for me to assess the new bill because they're pushing it through without a CBO score, but that alone tells me it's not going to score well, at all. Estimates are that it may remove coverage from as many as 10-15 million people.

It's not a surprise this bill is getting attacked from the left, but it's also getting pilloried by much of the right - the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Progress, and other conservative groups have already come out against it. I have a hard time seeing a bill that could earn a majority of R support - too many reps in the "total repeal, screw the consequences" and "taking health coverage from 10s of millions is political suicide" camps. In theory this should create incentives to reach across the aisle and find support among the Dems, but in reality haha.

Yeah, the bill sucks, and the "phases" aspect is puzzling. There are sensible GOP reforms - buying insurance across state lines, malpractice reform, lifting some regulations - but those reforms aren't present here.

One quibble: "taking" coverage from 10+ million people isn't necessarily accurate, because many of those people are young and healthy, and don't want to buy insurance. But, whether it's 10 million or 5 million, you're right: many people will lose coverage, especially older Americans.

What an incredibly complicated issue.  If the young and healthy choose not to participate -- which I could agree should be their right -- the 1% (or whatever the actuarial number actually is) who then suffer catastrophic injury or illness are then cared for by taxpayers.

It has been decades of a broken healthcare system that the ACA clearly didn't fix. However, it did bring to light some points to agree on, and should shed some light also on what doesn't work.  It is surprising that the republicans could not come up with something more palatable.  Can this lead to a bipartisan approach? -- something that could "repair" the ACA rather than the toxic "repeal" that automatically will get unanimous democrat rejection? The politics of this is just amazing.  Dems should not have shoved the ACA through, and repubs should have got something done during the 'W' years.     

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2017, 01:23:18 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Can this lead to a bipartisan approach? -- something that could "repair" the ACA rather than the toxic "repeal" that automatically will get unanimous democrat rejection? The politics of this is just amazing.  Dems should not have shoved the ACA through, and repubs should have got something done during the 'W' years.     

I don't think Dems and Republicans can work together on this now with the current climate in Washington. Paul Ryan (among others) has submitted a bill that is well, terrible, and utterly unacceptable to Democrats. And it sounds like its unacceptable to a lot of republicans too honestly.

But working together on the bill, the Democrats don't have a lot of leverage if they're not willing to make concessions so big they'll get killed by everyone in their party outside of the most blue-dog of congressmen and voters.

On the right, Paul Ryan can't really make many concessions to the left either because he's going to get killed by his own party for various reasons as is, and making concessions to democrats will exacerbate the issue, not alleviate it.


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Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2017, 01:46:51 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think the Medicaid rollback is going to cost many of the poorest in this country their health insurance and will just force them back to using emergency care and have the rest of us pay for it through skyrocketing issurance premiums. So if we are going to pay for it anyway I would rather do it buy psying into Medicaid than through increased premiums.

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »

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I'm not familiar with the nuance of either plan, but I think we absolutely need to focus on preventative treatment/lifestyle/medicine etc.

Also, I think the demand for healthcare services is just way too high for a variety of reasons. Among them is a culture of healthcare use/overuse/unnecessary treatments, which is partly due to having such an insurance-reliant system in the first place.

Health care should be ensured, not insured. Insuring health care is necessarily a loss for consumers and prohibitive for those who can't afford it. It creates barriers to access and raises costs disproportionately. Ensuring health care is difficult to achieve, but if done correctly, achieves goals of both availability and affordability of the health care system.

It's a radical move and cannot be achieved in one simple step, but insuring health care should be illegal and an alternative which guarantees service in a sustainable, quality way should be put in place. Until we do this, we are all losing. The question is just by how much.


I strongly agree the emphasis on health care should be on prevention. We will not see a single legitimate point in any health care plan from either party that makes an honest effort to improve preventative health care though, because prevention is nowhere near as profitable as treatment. They would crush one of the most profitable industries in the country if they really focused on prevention.
that's what makes defunding planned parenthood so bad.  It is almost all about preventative medicine.

I agree.  But there actually has been a lot that's happened in the last 8 years, specifically because of the teeth behind the legislation, that has moved us in the right direction towards better prevention.  I work in the medical software industry and the focus was first on adopting Electronic Health Records, then reporting basic data, and we're now getting into changing healthcare around that data.

You can't manage population health without data.  And you couldn't get data when everything was on paper and not consistent from one practice to another.  But we're just now seeing the ability to track which areas have the highest concentrations of diabetes (or other chronic diseases, which make up most of the cost of our healthcare), what other factors leads to it, and what the best treatment PLANS are.  It truly is moving towards a pay-for-performance to doctors, which isn't a bad thing.  Think about it, if 1 doctor can treat the same illlness in 3 visits, whereas the other doctor takes 9 visits, we've been paying the worse doctor 3x what the good doctor made.  Only this past administration had the legislation to put this in motion, which we'll start to see benefits from over the next 20-years.. but it's a slow process :(

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I think the Medicaid rollback is going to cost many of the poorest in this country their health insurance and will just force them back to using emergency care and have the rest of us pay for it through skyrocketing issurance premiums. So if we are going to pay for it anyway I would rather do it buy psying into Medicaid than through increased premiums.

That's my read as well. My House Rep (E. Stefanik) is kind of tender-footing around the bill, getting feedback rather than touting it, and I think that's because she knows there are going to be a lot of angry people ages 50-60 and a lot of angry people who did qualify for Medicaid before but don't now.

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Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2017, 03:23:48 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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It seems that people on the left and right don't like the new healthcare bill. It also doesn't do a lot of things that Trump promised the new healthcare bill will do.

I wonder if it will actually pass or if it was meant to fail so that Trump could say that he tried and blame "politics as usual" on it not getting done without taking a hit from people who voted for him because he said he would repeal it
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Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2017, 04:17:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Saw an article that says 4 Republicans and 1 independent have already told McConnell they won't approve this bill. So it looks like it won't get through the Senate.

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2017, 04:26:26 PM »

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We were a nation of pioneers where if you wanted something you worked hard and there was upward mobility.   I feed bad for the disabled, mentally ill and they need the assistance.   For those in poverty there are families that this has become a way of life for.  That was never the intent.  I have no problem giving it to peeps who feel on hard times.  I don't mind helping the working poor.

But we have some people who could work and don't.  I could care less if they lose their insurance because unlike the above groups they choose not to work.  This to me is different than the working poor or disabled or mentally ill whom I don't mind helping.     

Obamacare had some good ideas and it did not work.   I think this bill is the same.   It is also an attempt to pacify folks.   One people get on the take it is hard to get them off.   Sadly, it looks like nothing meaningful will get done.   We need real change not a bandaid!

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2017, 05:14:51 PM »

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But we have some people who could work and don't.  I could care less if they lose their insurance because unlike the above groups they choose not to work.  This to me is different than the working poor or disabled or mentally ill whom I don't mind helping.
I'm not sure how this is relevant to the healthcare bill...
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Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2017, 06:07:48 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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You really gotta wonder if we're ever gonna get to a point where Americans realize that their is already a few different better ways to do this, and our insistence on an employer based majority-private system is going to get us no where?

Maybe 12 years of Obamacare and Trumpcare will make us finally say "Y'know what, lets just copy the dang Canadians then"

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 06:54:40 PM »

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Quote
I'm not sure how this is relevant to the healthcare bill...

It is relevant because people lose their insurance or gain as a result of these bills.  Also, I think my comments were more relevant than the above.

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2017, 07:31:25 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I'm not sure how this is relevant to the healthcare bill...

It is relevant because people lose their insurance or gain as a result of these bills.  Also, I think my comments were more relevant than the above.
The problem with your comment is you can't decide to interview every poor person who receives Medicaid and subjectively decide if they are just being to lazy to go out to work and get their own insurance or not. Hell, the process of even trying this would cost more than just paying for these people's Medicaid in the first place.

I also think you will get blowback from this type of statement because its a common right wing talking point to create class warfare against the poor. Are there people who take advantage of Medicaid, food stamps and other benefits to the poor? Sure. But how does that number compare to give backs to corporations or fraud against the government by corporations in various forms?

Me, I would rather provide the entitlements to the poor and put up with those that take advantage of it( which I also think is much smaller than most think) and focus our attentions on stopping the government from handing out billions in corporate entitlements or closing loopholes in the tax code so that corporations pay their fair share of taxes.

I know this is off topic but I felt Celtics4ever's comment warranted a response
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 08:45:51 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 08:17:15 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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I'm not sure how this is relevant to the healthcare bill...

It is relevant because people lose their insurance or gain as a result of these bills.  Also, I think my comments were more relevant than the above.
The problem with your comment is you can't decide to interview every poor person who receives Medicaid and subjectively decide if they are just being to lazy to go out to work and get their own insurance. Hell, the process of even trying this would cost more than just paying for these people's Medicaid in the first place.

I also think youwill get blowback from this type of statement because its a common right wing talking point to create class warfare against the poor. Are their people who take advantage of Medicaid, food stamps and other benefits to the poor? Sure. But how does that number compare to give backs to corporations or fraud against the government by corpirations in various forms?

Me, Iwouldrather provide the entitlements to the poor and put up with those that take advantage of it( which I also think is much smaller than most think) and focus our attentions on stopping the government from handing out billions in corporate entitlements or closing loopholes in the tax code so that corporations and Trump pay their fair share of taxes.

I know this is off topic but I felt Celtics4ever's comment warranted a response
TP - spot on Nick (as usual)

by the way, I did think there was one correction needed ;)

Re: Obamacare/Trumpcare
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 08:20:53 PM »

Offline liam

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Quote
I'm not sure how this is relevant to the healthcare bill...

It is relevant because people lose their insurance or gain as a result of these bills.  Also, I think my comments were more relevant than the above.
The problem with your comment is you can't decide to interview every poor person who receives Medicaid and subjectively decide if they are just being to lazy to go out to work and get their own insurance. Hell, the process of even trying this would cost more than just paying for these people's Medicaid in the first place.

I also think youwill get blowback from this type of statement because its a common right wing talking point to create class warfare against the poor. Are their people who take advantage of Medicaid, food stamps and other benefits to the poor? Sure. But how does that number compare to give backs to corporations or fraud against the government by corpirations in various forms?

Me, Iwouldrather provide the entitlements to the poor and put up with those that take advantage of it( which I also think is much smaller than most think) and focus our attentions on stopping the government from handing out billions in corporate entitlements or closing loopholes in the tax code so that corporations and Trump pay their fair share of taxes.

I know this is off topic but I felt Celtics4ever's comment warranted a response
TP - spot on Nick (as usual)

by the way, I did think there was one correction needed ;)

Left off defense contractors that steal more money from the government than anyone!