WOJ : Boston in pursuit to engage trade talks about Butler and George

[chilidawg]

"perpetual rebuild"

Let's look are quick rebuilds. Here are the teams in the last 10 years who won 25 or fewer games in one season and two years later won 48 or more and the primary reason for the quick rebound:

Celtics (06-08): KG, Ray Allen trade
OKC (07-09): Durant, Westbrook (both top 5 picks)
Toronto (11-13): Two top 11 picks
Golden State (11-13): 4 top 11 picks
Cleveland (12-14): LeBron, Irving, #1 for Love (two #1 overall picks)
Boston (13-15): One top 11 pick

Notice anything? The Cs resurgence (it ain't a rebuild any more) is quite remarkable. First of all it was exceptionally fast. That's 6 teams in 10 years. So this isn't something that happens often. Furthermore, the way it happened is almost unique. Theirs and Toronto's are the only rebuilds where the teams didn't get multiple cracks at top 10 picks. So that's two teams (and three times) in the last decade who have been able to spin it around quickly without building through the draft.

The team is on pace for 52 wins, #2 or #3 seed in the Conference and still has very likely two more top 5 picks to go along with Brown (who is already proving you wrong). Perpetual rebuild? That couldn't be further from the truth. It's an ever-increasing refinement of an already very good team with the assets that "rebuilding" teams only wish they had.

Well thought out post.

[Granath]

I don't see why Anthony would necessarily preclude George or Butler. 

I mean if you can get Anthony for something Amir, Zeller, Young, plus some future 1st (like Boston 2019).  You could then acquire George or Butler with Crowder, Brown, Jerekbo, and one of the BKN picks (and other 1st's as required).  Other players in both tradess added in coming to Boston to help fill out the roster

So trade with Indy for George
Crowder, Brown, Jerekbo, BOS 17, BOS 18 for George, Seraphin

So trade with NY for Anthony
Johnson, Zeller, Young, BOS 19 for Anthony, Plumlee, Vujacic

So post-trades (1 open roster spot and still having BKN 18, MEM, LAC picks)

PG - Thomas, Rozier, Jackson
SG - Bradley, Smart, Vujacic
SF - George, Green
PF - Anthony, Olynyk, Mickey
C - Horford, Seraphin, Plumlee

We wouldn't ever be able to get a rebound, but man we could score the ball. Also with adding George we would be even deadlier defensively.

I just think we would need a 1st big off the bench that is great at rebounding so that we can slide him in for Anthony when other teams start to feast on us.

offense is not the problem for the celtics. they rank in the top 6 to 7 teams in terms of offensive efficiency. anthony does not address a real problem should either butler or george be on the team.

Worth mentioning that that offensive efficiency has been acheived on the back of a superhuman effort by Isaiah, a guy whose offensive efficiency has historically fallen in the playoffs when teams can gameplan a defense for him.  We're still less than a year removed from Boston relying heavily on Evan Turner in a first-round loss because he was the only other guy on the roster who could consistently create shots for himself and others.

Seriously? That's not why the Cs lost or why IT's efficiency fell off. The problem was that the other key guys were hurt. Crowder was on one foot. Bradley was out. That was 2 of the top 3 guys from last year.  That's the reason why Turner was being relied upon so heavily and Turner was an awful outside shooter.

Without any real threats from outside the Hawks were able to use their size and length inside where IT couldn't drive because there weren't enough shooters left to force Atlanta to open up their defense. I wouldn't use last years' playoffs as an bellwether of what IT can do with a healthy team around him in the playoffs. 

[Moranis]

You don't fail to acquire that type of player because you are worried about the chemistry of a team that can't win the title anyway.  You improve your team long term when you add a player better than anyone on your team.

This I agree with but you don't then go make a subsequent trade to bring in a similar though lesser player while giving up even more of your team and future assets mid season and then destroy your team you built for that  season, which was what you proposed. Making one trade for a star to enhance this team is the right and best move.

Yeah, I had a second trade for Anthony in which Boston gave up Johnson, Zeller, Young, and a future 1st for Anthony, Plumlee, and Vujacic.  That is clearly a winning trade for Boston and makes Boston better this season as well as in the future as none of those 3 players will likely be on Boston next year and the pick was 2019 so it wouldn't be either. 

Isn't it better to mess up the "chemistry" once rather than twice?

[bogg]

Seriously? That's not why the Cs lost or why IT's efficiency fell off. The problem was that the other key guys were hurt. Crowder was on one foot. Bradley was out. That was 2 of the top 3 guys from last year.  That's the reason why Turner was being relied upon so heavily and Turner was an awful outside shooter.

Without any real threats from outside the Hawks were able to use their size and length inside where IT couldn't drive because there weren't enough shooters left to force Atlanta to open up their defense. I wouldn't use last years' playoffs as an bellwether of what IT can do with a healthy team around him in the playoffs.

Yes seriously. Boston's recent success coincides with Isaiah playing at a level on offense that merits mention with the very best scorers in the entire league. If a team is able to slow him down to mere normal all-star numbers then everything gets very difficult for the C's as currently constructed. The guy needs help in the postseason, it's not some indictment of him as a player - he said as much last summer.

[flybono]

Our team has holes so don't move any of the pieces that comprise those holes to improve?

I could not disagree with this extremely convoluted logic more vehemently.

You fill the #2 scorer "need", but what about rebounding?

Are Butler or PG13 solving that problem? PG13 might a little but that's it.

Plus you likely deal away Bradley + 1-2 Nets Picks + more for either player.

Might end up being more of a lateral move.

Paul George would be Boston's best and most complete player (Thomas is obviously a better offensive player than George, but George is the complete package on both ends of the Court making him a better overall player).  The guy that can be the best player on a title team is the hardest thing to acquire.  George could be that guy, especially when you surround him with Thomas, Horford, Bradley, Smart, etc. (assume you give up Crowder, Brown, and BKN 17 for George).  You don't fail to acquire that type of player because you are worried about the chemistry of a team that can't win the title anyway.  You improve your team long term when you add a player better than anyone on your team.

Completely agree with Moranis.

But you're dealing with a guy who's trying to saturate the board with his fear of improving the roster, ostensibly, I suppose, because the cost might be some of the beloved youth and draft picks - none which have won squat for this franchise, let alone delivered anything close to the hyperbole that surrounds them on this board. See Zizic for one easy example.

Ainge is a FAR better trader than he is a drafter - a fact that has now made it into the national narrative. It is time - past time - to take the leap and improve this roster. The signal that Ainge and Wyc aren't going to be satisfied playing the perpetual rebuild game some of you cherish so deeply came when they signed Horford.

Amen. Now make another deal. The 17 pick right now is Gold since it has the best odds to hit #1 overall.
Deal it!

[Boris Badenov]

If Ainge makes a trade this year it will be to enhance the current, on pace to win over 50 games this year, team. There is absolutely zero chance Ainge rips apart the core of this team while giving up massive amounts of future assets and bench players to add Melo and Butler. That is simply not happening. Ainge could add one star while giving up 2018 Nets, maybe Yab, Zizic, or Nader, expiring contracts and one starter quality player, but thats all thst will happen in season this year.

why is there zero chance?  If Ainge doesn't think this team can win a title, but thinks making a move this year would better set Boston up for that, then Ainge would absolutely make that move even if it hurts the core.  Chemistry only matters if you have a team capable of winning a title.  Boston is not a team capable of winning the title, so chemistry makes no real difference at all in that regard.

There is zero chance because Ainge is an intelligent person that doesn't deal in the absolutes that you are discussing. He also is a manager of people and doesn't treat people like objects like you seem to be doing here. This team has a human dynamic and the best way to kill the positive locker room and team chemistry as well as the relationship between the players and coaches and management is to blow apart a team mid season like you are calling for.

You do remember what happened at the deadline in 2011, right?

1) That worked out questionably.
2) Trading six players who've combined for 37% of the team's minutes is different than trading 4 players who combined for about 15% of the team's minutes (excluding Daniels because he had a very severe injury and wasn't going to be able to travel with the team, much less play, for the rest of the season.)
3) Only one of those players had been with the team for a full season.  Nate Robinson was the second-longest tenured having been acquired in the middle of the prior year.  5 of the 6 players in the proposal are in at least their second full season with the team.  As big of a locker room shock as 2011 was, this would dwarf it.

I don't think it's a bigger shock, for the simple reason that the current C's team has not won a ring together. (Remember the whole "this starting five has not lost a playoff series" line?).

I agree it worked out questionably. And I don't know whether Ainge has modified his thinking because of how it worked out.

But, a simple assertion that Ainge would not make such a move because of chemistry seems to be false, based on history. That's all I was saying. Ainge has proven to be pretty cold-blooded. The Pierce/Garnett move is another example.

[hodgy03038]

I love George but I don't want to go "all in" on him or any player what - one year removed from a season long injury. These injuries are a play away from happening again. You can't mortgage your future with that possibility. Maybe it never happens again hopefully for him but look at Jabari Parker, now Embid has another injury. I don't want any damaged goods.

[bogg]

I love George but I don't want to go "all in" on him or any player what - one year removed from a season long injury. These injuries are a play away from happening again. You can't mortgage your future with that possibility. Maybe it never happens again hopefully for him but look at Jabari Parker, now Embid has another injury. I don't want any damaged goods.

Well, depending on what you mean by all-in I probably agree with you regardless of the injury or not (the C's trade chest should be enough to land two high-level players if you fully exhaust it, giving up everything for one guy is simply unnecessary), but George's situation is a little bit different. He broke a pretty big bone in his leg on a freak play, it's a little bit different than a guy playing on rebuilt ligaments or a stress-related break of tiny foot bones. I'm not so much concerned about George's injury history as I would be putting the pieces needed to compete around George (and Isaiah and Horford, yes).

That being said, Bird isn't trading George, so it's all moot