Author Topic: The President Trump Thread  (Read 119818 times)

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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2805 on: August 16, 2017, 07:36:57 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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The continued, tortured use of false moral equivalency and red herrings to shift some share of the blame away from the Unite the Right movement as the fundamental core causal agent for this event is very disturbing.

And it's very sad that there is a very vocal few on this blog who seem to be digging in deeper and deeper with that.

Yes this is sad.  No one has condoned the Unite the Right movement on this thread as far as I can tell...but it's still sad and disturbing when so many comments of condemnation are followed with "but...."   The false moral equivalence thing is out there in a big way...from the president #1 and right wing media #2.

There is no moral equivalency in this issue. The fault lies solely on the right-wing rioters who were clearly looking to pick a fight. If we were in court here, the neo Nazis would be the guilty party. However, that does not mean the issue is completely black-and-white. The fact that there exists a villain does not mean that the other side did everything the way it should have.

I frankly think that pointing out how the second group of protestors could have improved their demonstration is the opposite of a red herring. The best way to end heinous acts like the events in Charlottesville, other than education over time, is to constructively critique and improve the actions of their resistance. I'm sure if you asked lots of peace activists, they would tell you that, if they could go back in time, they would have preferred that their side not confront the white supremacists with weapons of its own. I maintain that the peaceful candlelight vigil from later in the evening (that received little to no media coverage because of the earlier violence) was a more appropriate and unifying response.

Yeah, call me closed minded but I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in.


We've reached the same conclusion. The Nazis are to blame (see bolded part of my post). But we're not dealing with computers or trivia questions. We're dealing with people. This isn't zeros and ones or truths and non-truths. The fact that the Nazis were carrying weapons was indeed exacerbated by the fact that people felt a need to confront them. It takes two people to fight.

Say someone walks up to you, says, "I'm going to punch you if you spit at me," and then you spit at him. When he punches you, it is clearly his fault. However, when people look back at the situation, they will probably also say, "Maybe you shouldn't have spit at that deranged guy."

Celtics4ever is correct in that two wrongs don't make a right, even when one wrong was committed by the side representing the abstract ideal of "peace and justice."

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2806 on: August 16, 2017, 08:11:17 PM »

Offline byennie

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We've reached the same conclusion. The Nazis are to blame (see bolded part of my post). But we're not dealing with computers or trivia questions. We're dealing with people. This isn't zeros and ones or truths and non-truths. The fact that the Nazis were carrying weapons was indeed exacerbated by the fact that people felt a need to confront them. It takes two people to fight.

Say someone walks up to you, says, "I'm going to punch you if you spit at me," and then you spit at him. When he punches you, it is clearly his fault. However, when people look back at the situation, they will probably also say, "Maybe you shouldn't have spit at that deranged guy."

Celtics4ever is correct in that two wrongs don't make a right, even when one wrong was committed by the side representing the abstract ideal of "peace and justice."

It's good that we all agree on the awfulness of Nazis.

Now, we need to agree that this pedantic point about sharing blame is contributing to a dangerous narrative. Like it or not, even if you personally can handle the various shades of gray, perpetuating the "both sides" argument is a problem. It is NOT clear, when one makes this argument, that they see an overwhelming evil vs a relative footnote. Please don't fan the flames, no matter how unintentional it may be, or tempting to be right in an Internet debate.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2807 on: August 16, 2017, 08:48:29 PM »

Offline liam

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The continued, tortured use of false moral equivalency and red herrings to shift some share of the blame away from the Unite the Right movement as the fundamental core causal agent for this event is very disturbing.

And it's very sad that there is a very vocal few on this blog who seem to be digging in deeper and deeper with that.

Yes this is sad.  No one has condoned the Unite the Right movement on this thread as far as I can tell...but it's still sad and disturbing when so many comments of condemnation are followed with "but...."   The false moral equivalence thing is out there in a big way...from the president #1 and right wing media #2.

There is no moral equivalency in this issue. The fault lies solely on the right-wing rioters who were clearly looking to pick a fight. If we were in court here, the neo Nazis would be the guilty party. However, that does not mean the issue is completely black-and-white. The fact that there exists a villain does not mean that the other side did everything the way it should have.

I frankly think that pointing out how the second group of protestors could have improved their demonstration is the opposite of a red herring. The best way to end heinous acts like the events in Charlottesville, other than education over time, is to constructively critique and improve the actions of their resistance. I'm sure if you asked lots of peace activists, they would tell you that, if they could go back in time, they would have preferred that their side not confront the white supremacists with weapons of its own. I maintain that the peaceful candlelight vigil from later in the evening (that received little to no media coverage because of the earlier violence) was a more appropriate and unifying response.

Yeah, call me closed minded but I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in.
willfully dismissing evidence is dangerous and wrong.

Look at the facts and conclude who is to blame. If the KKK and Nazis are as evil as you think they are (Hint: they are), then the facts will bear out the same conclusion nearly every time. However, we must not skip the fact gathering step.

This isn't about dismissing evidence. This is about easily processing it, given the basic facts of the day and the mountain of information about white supremacy and Nazis.

You make the assumption that by focusing solely on the white supremacy element, someone is ignorant of what happened. Not so.

Thank you so much for hitting the nail on the head! TP

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2808 on: August 16, 2017, 08:51:56 PM »

Offline liam

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   




I would be ecstatic to have Romney as President instead of Trump. Totally ecstatic. Romney is a highly intelligent, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-lunatic leader. Basically the complete opposite of Trump. Our country would be exponentially better if Romney was in charge, and I am glad he continues to speak up in key moments when we need true leadership.

Maybe nominating and electing DJT was a mastermind long-term chess move by the Republican party.   Here I am, a moderate who leans to the left and tends to vote more often for Democrats  -- and if Mike Pence could be POTUS tomorrow, better yet Mitt Romney, better yet still John Kasich... I'd be ecstatic.   

Shame on me for not being aware enough -- DJT is far worse than I thought he'd be.   

Me too! I thought Trump would be a horrible president but he's far worse than that. It's shocking how bad.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2809 on: August 16, 2017, 09:21:52 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The continued, tortured use of false moral equivalency and red herrings to shift some share of the blame away from the Unite the Right movement as the fundamental core causal agent for this event is very disturbing.

And it's very sad that there is a very vocal few on this blog who seem to be digging in deeper and deeper with that.

Yes this is sad.  No one has condoned the Unite the Right movement on this thread as far as I can tell...but it's still sad and disturbing when so many comments of condemnation are followed with "but...."   The false moral equivalence thing is out there in a big way...from the president #1 and right wing media #2.

There is no moral equivalency in this issue. The fault lies solely on the right-wing rioters who were clearly looking to pick a fight. If we were in court here, the neo Nazis would be the guilty party. However, that does not mean the issue is completely black-and-white. The fact that there exists a villain does not mean that the other side did everything the way it should have.

I frankly think that pointing out how the second group of protestors could have improved their demonstration is the opposite of a red herring. The best way to end heinous acts like the events in Charlottesville, other than education over time, is to constructively critique and improve the actions of their resistance. I'm sure if you asked lots of peace activists, they would tell you that, if they could go back in time, they would have preferred that their side not confront the white supremacists with weapons of its own. I maintain that the peaceful candlelight vigil from later in the evening (that received little to no media coverage because of the earlier violence) was a more appropriate and unifying response.

Yeah, call me closed minded but I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in.
willfully dismissing evidence is dangerous and wrong.

Look at the facts and conclude who is to blame. If the KKK and Nazis are as evil as you think they are (Hint: they are), then the facts will bear out the same conclusion nearly every time. However, we must not skip the fact gathering step.

This isn't about dismissing evidence. This is about easily processing it, given the basic facts of the day and the mountain of information about white supremacy and Nazis.

You make the assumption that by focusing solely on the white supremacy element, someone is ignorant of what happened. Not so.
I dont make that assumption. There is a difference between focusing on, and considering.

Focus on the Nazi's all you want. Beautiful. However, to make a blanket statement that regardless of context or any other facts or situations the Nazi's will always hold the blame in any situation is wrong.

The Nazi's can always be evil, but to suggest that it is impossible that a Nazi could be involved in a bad situation where he is not primarily culpable is possible and due to the existence of that possibility the sentence, "I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in." is wrong. You can condemn them and hate them regardless of the situation and in any situation, but you can not leverage blame at them without actually looking at what happened.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2810 on: August 16, 2017, 09:23:30 PM »

Offline blink

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   




I would be ecstatic to have Romney as President instead of Trump. Totally ecstatic. Romney is a highly intelligent, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-lunatic leader. Basically the complete opposite of Trump. Our country would be exponentially better if Romney was in charge, and I am glad he continues to speak up in key moments when we need true leadership.

As a long term, middle of the road democrat, I agree with this 100%.  I have mentioned this to a number of people as well. 

Romney would have been light years better than Trump as a president.  Unfortunately a well rounded, intelligent, thoughtful person wasn't elected.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2811 on: August 16, 2017, 09:29:23 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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We've reached the same conclusion. The Nazis are to blame (see bolded part of my post). But we're not dealing with computers or trivia questions. We're dealing with people. This isn't zeros and ones or truths and non-truths. The fact that the Nazis were carrying weapons was indeed exacerbated by the fact that people felt a need to confront them. It takes two people to fight.

Say someone walks up to you, says, "I'm going to punch you if you spit at me," and then you spit at him. When he punches you, it is clearly his fault. However, when people look back at the situation, they will probably also say, "Maybe you shouldn't have spit at that deranged guy."

Celtics4ever is correct in that two wrongs don't make a right, even when one wrong was committed by the side representing the abstract ideal of "peace and justice."

It's good that we all agree on the awfulness of Nazis.

Now, we need to agree that this pedantic point about sharing blame is contributing to a dangerous narrative. Like it or not, even if you personally can handle the various shades of gray, perpetuating the "both sides" argument is a problem. It is NOT clear, when one makes this argument, that they see an overwhelming evil vs a relative footnote. Please don't fan the flames, no matter how unintentional it may be, or tempting to be right in an Internet debate.
I have a bit of a problem with placing the pursuit of the most productive narrative over the pursuit of truth.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2812 on: August 16, 2017, 09:30:38 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   




I would be ecstatic to have Romney as President instead of Trump. Totally ecstatic. Romney is a highly intelligent, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-lunatic leader. Basically the complete opposite of Trump. Our country would be exponentially better if Romney was in charge, and I am glad he continues to speak up in key moments when we need true leadership.

As a long term, middle of the road democrat, I agree with this 100%.  I have mentioned this to a number of people as well. 

Romney would have been light years better than Trump as a president.  Unfortunately a well rounded, intelligent, thoughtful person wasn't elected.
I think Mit Romney would have been a terrific president.
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2813 on: August 16, 2017, 09:34:42 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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According to the media

1st the right was a basket of deplorables
Then they were Russian spies
Now they are Nazis

Hehe, It's adorable

Trump is going to destroy whatever talking head the left throws up in 2020




Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2814 on: August 16, 2017, 09:38:21 PM »

Offline GratefulCs

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According to the media

1st the right was a basket of deplorables
Then they were Russian spies
Now they are Nazis

Hehe, It's adorable

Trump is going to destroy whatever talking head the left throws up in 2020
i don't even know how you can think this situation is funny

racial tension in this country is out of control and your boy Trump is just fueling the fire

but i guess it's just liberal propaganda and the kkk and nazi members were actually actors paid by soros
I trust Danny Ainge

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2815 on: August 16, 2017, 09:39:35 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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We've reached the same conclusion. The Nazis are to blame (see bolded part of my post). But we're not dealing with computers or trivia questions. We're dealing with people. This isn't zeros and ones or truths and non-truths. The fact that the Nazis were carrying weapons was indeed exacerbated by the fact that people felt a need to confront them. It takes two people to fight.

Say someone walks up to you, says, "I'm going to punch you if you spit at me," and then you spit at him. When he punches you, it is clearly his fault. However, when people look back at the situation, they will probably also say, "Maybe you shouldn't have spit at that deranged guy."

Celtics4ever is correct in that two wrongs don't make a right, even when one wrong was committed by the side representing the abstract ideal of "peace and justice."

It's good that we all agree on the awfulness of Nazis.

Now, we need to agree that this pedantic point about sharing blame is contributing to a dangerous narrative. Like it or not, even if you personally can handle the various shades of gray, perpetuating the "both sides" argument is a problem. It is NOT clear, when one makes this argument, that they see an overwhelming evil vs a relative footnote. Please don't fan the flames, no matter how unintentional it may be, or tempting to be right in an Internet debate.

I agree with you that the President's response needed to be a stronger refutation. I agree that it is difficult for the masses to accept a nuanced opinion, and I agree that it is often more effective for a leader to hold and represent one, definite, black-and-white stance rather than a comprehensive one that can be misconstrued. (Which is why I think your opinion that a comprehensive stance by a leader is valid.)

However, I think you are selling a lot of people's intelligence short in assuming that the general public is incapable of seeing gray. Like it or not, these same difficult conversations are had behind the scenes by people that have the same organs and bodily functions as you and I.

I also think that dismissing me as trying "to be right in an Internet debate" is incredibly insulting. (I refuse to use the term "red herring." Oops, it slipped out.) It is discourse like this, regardless of the forum, that advances society as a whole, and even if you or I will never have our finger on the Big Red Button, it is very valuable to examine that "gray area" which you seem so against. Like I said earlier in the thread, education of We the People is the best way to make sure horrible events like this do not happen again, and reading, listening, and participating in conversations like this help everyone.

EDIT/Notes about Rhetoric: I find the use of "pedantic" very interesting, a way of dismissing my points before telling me they are dangerous to discuss. I think I have made myself very clear in the differentiation between the clear fault of the white supremacists and the less-than-ideal (NOT illegal, racist, or anything of the like) response of the counter protestors. You did, as well, in one sentence. ("It is NOT clear, when one makes this argument, that they see an overwhelming evil vs a relative footnote." ) So if you and I can articulate the difference in culpability that easily, why are conversations like this so dangerous?

Once again, I understand your point (and agree 100%) that Trump probably should have taken a more resolute and one-sided stance, but what is so dangerous about this discussion amongst two citizens with slightly differing opinions?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:47:27 PM by GetLucky »

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2816 on: August 16, 2017, 09:41:43 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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According to the media

1st the right was a basket of deplorables
Then they were Russian spies
Now they are Nazis

Hehe, It's adorable

Trump is going to destroy whatever talking head the left throws up in 2020
i don't even know how you can think this situation is funny

racial tension in this country is out of control and your boy Trump is just fueling the fire

but i guess it's just liberal propaganda and the kkk and nazi members were actually actors paid by soros

Taking comment out of context

I have said numerous times kkk and neo Nazis are scum of the earth

And they make up about 0.003% of the population

I said the media, try to read what I actually said.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2817 on: August 16, 2017, 09:42:40 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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We've reached the same conclusion. The Nazis are to blame (see bolded part of my post). But we're not dealing with computers or trivia questions. We're dealing with people. This isn't zeros and ones or truths and non-truths. The fact that the Nazis were carrying weapons was indeed exacerbated by the fact that people felt a need to confront them. It takes two people to fight.

Say someone walks up to you, says, "I'm going to punch you if you spit at me," and then you spit at him. When he punches you, it is clearly his fault. However, when people look back at the situation, they will probably also say, "Maybe you shouldn't have spit at that deranged guy."

Celtics4ever is correct in that two wrongs don't make a right, even when one wrong was committed by the side representing the abstract ideal of "peace and justice."

It's good that we all agree on the awfulness of Nazis.

Now, we need to agree that this pedantic point about sharing blame is contributing to a dangerous narrative. Like it or not, even if you personally can handle the various shades of gray, perpetuating the "both sides" argument is a problem. It is NOT clear, when one makes this argument, that they see an overwhelming evil vs a relative footnote. Please don't fan the flames, no matter how unintentional it may be, or tempting to be right in an Internet debate.

I agree with you that the President's response needed to be a stronger refutation. I agree that it is difficult for the masses to accept a nuanced opinion, and I agree that it is often more effective for a leader to hold and represent one, definite, black-and-white stance rather than a comprehensive one that can be misconstrued. (Which is why I think your opinion that a comprehensive stance by a leader is valid.)

However, I think You are selling a lot of people's intelligence short in assuming that the general public is incapable of seeing gray. Like it or not, these same difficult conversations are had behind the scenes by people that have the same organs and bodily functions as you and I.

I also think that dismissing me as trying "to be right in an Internet debate" is incredibly insulting. (I refuse to use the term "red herring." Oops, it slipped out.) It is discourse like this, regardless of the forum, that advances society as a whole, and even if you or I will never have our finger on the Big Red Button, it is very valuable to examine that "gray area" which you seem so against. Like I said earlier in the thread, education of We the People is the best way to make sure horrible events like this do not happen again, and reading, listening, and participating in conversations like this help everyone.

Good post.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2818 on: August 16, 2017, 09:57:10 PM »

Offline GratefulCs

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According to the media

1st the right was a basket of deplorables
Then they were Russian spies
Now they are Nazis

Hehe, It's adorable

Trump is going to destroy whatever talking head the left throws up in 2020
i don't even know how you can think this situation is funny

racial tension in this country is out of control and your boy Trump is just fueling the fire

but i guess it's just liberal propaganda and the kkk and nazi members were actually actors paid by soros

Taking comment out of context

I have said numerous times kkk and neo Nazis are scum of the earth

And they make up about 0.003% of the population

I said the media, try to read what I actually said.
welp, no one said all the right wingers are nazis (most obviously aren't)

no one said the right wingers are russian spies

and pretty much only HRC said the trump supporters are deplorables


i'd ask where you got this "information" but then i'd just get a youtube of alex jones as a response
I trust Danny Ainge

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2819 on: August 16, 2017, 09:59:11 PM »

Offline GratefulCs

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honest question to rondohondo:

what would it take for you to not support trump anymore?

where's the line for you?
I trust Danny Ainge