Author Topic: The President Trump Thread  (Read 126117 times)

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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2790 on: August 16, 2017, 04:43:30 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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On the impact a President can have on opinions.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/16/poll-republicans-putin-russia-confidence-241701

Back in 2015, before Trump announced his candidacy for the Presidency, only 17% of Republicans and only 19% of Americans overall expressed "confidence" in Vladimir Putin.

In a Pew Research poll taken over the last few months the numbers are up to 34% for Republicans and 29% for Americans overall.

Just 13% of Democrats have confidence in Putin at this time.   The gap in the view of Russia by partisans has grown wide:

Quote
And while 61 percent of Democrats consider Russia a major national security risk, only 36 percent of Republicans do, the poll of 1,505 adults conducted from Feb. 16 to March 15 found. The poll had a margin of error of 3 percentage points.

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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2791 on: August 16, 2017, 04:48:19 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The continued, tortured use of false moral equivalency and red herrings to shift some share of the blame away from the Unite the Right movement as the fundamental core causal agent for this event is very disturbing.

And it's very sad that there is a very vocal few on this blog who seem to be digging in deeper and deeper with that.

Yes this is sad.  No one has condoned the Unite the Right movement on this thread as far as I can tell...but it's still sad and disturbing when so many comments of condemnation are followed with "but...."   The false moral equivalence thing is out there in a big way...from the president #1 and right wing media #2.

There is no moral equivalency in this issue. The fault lies solely on the right-wing rioters who were clearly looking to pick a fight. If we were in court here, the neo Nazis would be the guilty party. However, that does not mean the issue is completely black-and-white. The fact that there exists a villain does not mean that the other side did everything the way it should have.

I frankly think that pointing out how the second group of protestors could have improved their demonstration is the opposite of a red herring. The best way to end heinous acts like the events in Charlottesville, other than education over time, is to constructively critique and improve the actions of their resistance. I'm sure if you asked lots of peace activists, they would tell you that, if they could go back in time, they would have preferred that their side not confront the white supremacists with weapons of its own. I maintain that the peaceful candlelight vigil from later in the evening (that received little to no media coverage because of the earlier violence) was a more appropriate and unifying response.

Yeah, call me closed minded but I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in.
willfully dismissing evidence is dangerous and wrong.

Look at the facts and conclude who is to blame. If the KKK and Nazis are as evil as you think they are (Hint: they are), then the facts will bear out the same conclusion nearly every time. However, we must not skip the fact gathering step.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2792 on: August 16, 2017, 05:02:23 PM »

Offline Cman

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Chilling read from a synagogue in Charlottesville

http://reformjudaism.org/blog/2017/08/14/charlottesville-local-jewish-community-presses

Quote
The loss of life far outweighs any fear or concern felt by me or the Jewish community during the past several weeks as we braced for this Nazi rally – but the effects of both will each linger.

On Saturday morning, I stood outside our synagogue with the armed security guard we hired after the police department refused to provide us with an officer during morning services. (Even the police department’s limited promise of an observer near our building was not kept — and note, we did not ask for protection of our property, only our people as they worshipped).

Forty congregants were inside. Here’s what I witnessed during that time.

For half an hour, three men dressed in fatigues and armed with semi-automatic rifles stood across the street from the temple. Had they tried to enter, I don’t know what I could have done to stop them, but I couldn’t take my eyes off them, either. Perhaps the presence of our armed guard deterred them. Perhaps their presence was just a coincidence, and I’m paranoid. I don’t know.

Several times, parades of Nazis passed our building, shouting, “There's the synagogue!” followed by chants of “Seig Heil” and other anti-Semitic language. Some carried flags with swastikas and other Nazi symbols.

There's more. Its a good read.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2793 on: August 16, 2017, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   

But you honestly do not think that they are not some racists on the other side, too?   I would say that there are some but not to the same extent by any means.  I don't think it is as prevalent but I experienced some in the Army at various times.  Nothing like the institutionalized stuff or fear that Afro-Americans do but I can tell that they have their racists, too. 

I think we have come long ways but have a long ways to go.  But some hate behind closed doors.   That being said, there are a ton of good people out that genuinely care about others and their fellow human beings.   I think race = we are all humans.  It is time to come to terms that race is an antiquated idea of the past for people to stroke their egos.

Sadly, I doubt Pres. Trump is the man to lead us out of this era, Pres. Obama was not either.   I think things worsened under him thought a lot of it may not have been his fault but rather resentment that he was in office.

Quote
When someone says "both sides were violent", they are shifting blame away from the overwhelming problem, plain and simple. Yes, we can acknowledge that the Antifa exists and is not a peaceful group, but we MUST combat this narrative that implies relatively equal guilt/blame/intentions. There are always two sides to violent conflict, but we cannot and should not force the idea that there is no right side simply because all violence is wrong.

I disagree with your assessment.   There was clear violence on both sides.  I never said there was equal blame but two wrongs do not make a right.   

There were people throwing bags of urine and armed with billy clubs on the protester side.   Also, some of them wear masks if they are all goody two shoes can you tell me why they wear masks?   You don't think they had any part in the escalation.  I do.   I think the Nazi White Supremacists were there to provoke as well.   None of this merited that guy plowing into a crowd of people with his car killing him.   

The media has ignored that this happened as it does nto fit their narrative but I saw this with my own eyes.  It happened folks both sides were violent.   I don't feel it takes anything away that someone decided to commit terrrorism and the ultimate act against their fellow man which is killing them.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2794 on: August 16, 2017, 05:52:04 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2795 on: August 16, 2017, 06:19:20 PM »

Offline byennie

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Quote
When someone says "both sides were violent", they are shifting blame away from the overwhelming problem, plain and simple. Yes, we can acknowledge that the Antifa exists and is not a peaceful group, but we MUST combat this narrative that implies relatively equal guilt/blame/intentions. There are always two sides to violent conflict, but we cannot and should not force the idea that there is no right side simply because all violence is wrong.

I disagree with your assessment.   There was clear violence on both sides.  I never said there was equal blame but two wrongs do not make a right.   

There were people throwing bags of urine and armed with billy clubs on the protester side.   Also, some of them wear masks if they are all goody two shoes can you tell me why they wear masks?   You don't think they had any part in the escalation.  I do.   I think the Nazi White Supremacists were there to provoke as well.   None of this merited that guy plowing into a crowd of people with his car killing him.   

The media has ignored that this happened as it does nto fit their narrative but I saw this with my own eyes.  It happened folks both sides were violent.   I don't feel it takes anything away that someone decided to commit terrrorism and the ultimate act against their fellow man which is killing them.

Thank you for the respectful disagreement. I think you are still missing the point.

I agree that violence *existed* on both sides. That is factual.

I am not saying: "two wrongs make a right". That's a strawman you are arguing against.

I am not saying: "they [antifa] had [no] part in the escalation". That's a strawman, too.

We agree of course, that the murder was horrible.

The media may or may not be biased, depending on many factors including which media, and what you think is most relevant to report on. Let's put that aside for a moment, at least agreeing it's somewhere in the gray area.

What I am saying is that NONE of this justifies the entire situation being addressed as "many sides". Really focus on what a false equivalency is. It does not mean two things are completely unrelated. It means that they are being presented as more or less equal when they clearly are not.

One moderate argument I've heard a lot over the last 24 hours essentially says: these were just a handful of Nazi jerks, fighting against a handful of Communist jerks. I might hate Nazis more than anyone, but it doesn't matter. They're all jerks.

This is totally inaccurate. This was not some random KKK meetup. This was "Unite the Right". The alt-right, to which the POTUS belongs (and Bannon + Miller are card carrying members) marched ALONGSIDE grand wizards of the KKK, and self-declared white supremacists carrying Nazi flags and preaching genocide. I am not saying every member of the alt-right is a murdering supremacist. Far from it. But, this is a political movement that is failing to separate itself from white supremacy. Full stop. It's not just the president.

A political movement to which the president belongs, which likely elected him, which counts members of the administration among its leaders, is conducting white supremacy rallies. That is not to be compared in an uncertain terms to Antifa based on some level of shared aggression.



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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2796 on: August 16, 2017, 06:22:04 PM »

Offline byennie

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I disagree with your assessment.   There was clear violence on both sides.  I never said there was equal blame but two wrongs do not make a right.

I just wanted to address this directly. I know you are not saying these two things are equal, but carrying on the pedantic argument about "both sides were violent" is exactly what is giving life to the narrative.

We need badly to come out and call a spade a spade: white supremacy is THE problem, 1000x over. Merely as an aside, it would be good if we got more peaceful protesters to reign in the Antifa, because they aren't helping the cause. They don't; however, share the blame for the rise of white supremacy, and are not threatening the general public whatsoever.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2797 on: August 16, 2017, 06:46:10 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   

But you honestly do not think that they are not some racists on the other side, too? 

'Pretty sure Mitt's comments are referencing the ideology espoused by either side.

No on has claimed the humans on either side are not flawed.  But one side's stated ideology is clearly "racist, bigoted, Nazi" while the other is not.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2798 on: August 16, 2017, 06:47:35 PM »

Offline liam

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The continued, tortured use of false moral equivalency and red herrings to shift some share of the blame away from the Unite the Right movement as the fundamental core causal agent for this event is very disturbing.

And it's very sad that there is a very vocal few on this blog who seem to be digging in deeper and deeper with that.

Yes this is sad.  No one has condoned the Unite the Right movement on this thread as far as I can tell...but it's still sad and disturbing when so many comments of condemnation are followed with "but...."   The false moral equivalence thing is out there in a big way...from the president #1 and right wing media #2.

There is no moral equivalency in this issue. The fault lies solely on the right-wing rioters who were clearly looking to pick a fight. If we were in court here, the neo Nazis would be the guilty party. However, that does not mean the issue is completely black-and-white. The fact that there exists a villain does not mean that the other side did everything the way it should have.

I frankly think that pointing out how the second group of protestors could have improved their demonstration is the opposite of a red herring. The best way to end heinous acts like the events in Charlottesville, other than education over time, is to constructively critique and improve the actions of their resistance. I'm sure if you asked lots of peace activists, they would tell you that, if they could go back in time, they would have preferred that their side not confront the white supremacists with weapons of its own. I maintain that the peaceful candlelight vigil from later in the evening (that received little to no media coverage because of the earlier violence) was a more appropriate and unifying response.

Yeah, call me closed minded but I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in.
willfully dismissing evidence is dangerous and wrong.

Look at the facts and conclude who is to blame. If the KKK and Nazis are as evil as you think they are (Hint: they are), then the facts will bear out the same conclusion nearly every time. However, we must not skip the fact gathering step.

I think if you label yourself as a KKK or a Nazi you are not getting a fair shake from me. I know what those organizations represent. My fact gathering on KKK and nazis hasn't been skipped, I know all too well who they are and what they represent. I have extensive experience with both groups and have done exhaustive historical research on both organizations! The hate at the roots of both of these organizations is intolerable to me. 

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2799 on: August 16, 2017, 06:51:06 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   




I would be ecstatic to have Romney as President instead of Trump. Totally ecstatic. Romney is a highly intelligent, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-lunatic leader. Basically the complete opposite of Trump. Our country would be exponentially better if Romney was in charge, and I am glad he continues to speak up in key moments when we need true leadership.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2800 on: August 16, 2017, 07:02:06 PM »

Offline byennie

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The continued, tortured use of false moral equivalency and red herrings to shift some share of the blame away from the Unite the Right movement as the fundamental core causal agent for this event is very disturbing.

And it's very sad that there is a very vocal few on this blog who seem to be digging in deeper and deeper with that.

Yes this is sad.  No one has condoned the Unite the Right movement on this thread as far as I can tell...but it's still sad and disturbing when so many comments of condemnation are followed with "but...."   The false moral equivalence thing is out there in a big way...from the president #1 and right wing media #2.

There is no moral equivalency in this issue. The fault lies solely on the right-wing rioters who were clearly looking to pick a fight. If we were in court here, the neo Nazis would be the guilty party. However, that does not mean the issue is completely black-and-white. The fact that there exists a villain does not mean that the other side did everything the way it should have.

I frankly think that pointing out how the second group of protestors could have improved their demonstration is the opposite of a red herring. The best way to end heinous acts like the events in Charlottesville, other than education over time, is to constructively critique and improve the actions of their resistance. I'm sure if you asked lots of peace activists, they would tell you that, if they could go back in time, they would have preferred that their side not confront the white supremacists with weapons of its own. I maintain that the peaceful candlelight vigil from later in the evening (that received little to no media coverage because of the earlier violence) was a more appropriate and unifying response.

Yeah, call me closed minded but I always blame The KKK and Nazis in any situation they are involved in.
willfully dismissing evidence is dangerous and wrong.

Look at the facts and conclude who is to blame. If the KKK and Nazis are as evil as you think they are (Hint: they are), then the facts will bear out the same conclusion nearly every time. However, we must not skip the fact gathering step.

This isn't about dismissing evidence. This is about easily processing it, given the basic facts of the day and the mountain of information about white supremacy and Nazis.

You make the assumption that by focusing solely on the white supremacy element, someone is ignorant of what happened. Not so.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2801 on: August 16, 2017, 07:06:08 PM »

Offline chicagoceltic

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Of course I have no way to prove this but in my opinion if John Kasich were President I think the protest/counter-protest in Charlottesville would have been far less violent.
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Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2802 on: August 16, 2017, 07:14:00 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Of course I have no way to prove this but in my opinion if John Kasich were President I think the protest/counter-protest in Charlottesville would have been far less violent.
You're right because it probably wouldn't have happened at all.  That's why this topic is in this thread.

Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2803 on: August 16, 2017, 07:19:41 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

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Quote
Mitt Romney  ✔ @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes

You act like Mitt's world is gospel, it is not.   I agree with him that one side is racist and bigoted though.   




I would be ecstatic to have Romney as President instead of Trump. Totally ecstatic. Romney is a highly intelligent, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-lunatic leader. Basically the complete opposite of Trump. Our country would be exponentially better if Romney was in charge, and I am glad he continues to speak up in key moments when we need true leadership.

Maybe nominating and electing DJT was a mastermind long-term chess move by the Republican party.   Here I am, a moderate who leans to the left and tends to vote more often for Democrats  -- and if Mike Pence could be POTUS tomorrow, better yet Mitt Romney, better yet still John Kasich... I'd be ecstatic.   

Shame on me for not being aware enough -- DJT is far worse than I thought he'd be.   


Re: The President Trump Thread
« Reply #2804 on: August 16, 2017, 07:25:25 PM »

Offline Cman

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I disagree with your assessment.   There was clear violence on both sides.  I never said there was equal blame but two wrongs do not make a right.

I just wanted to address this directly. I know you are not saying these two things are equal, but carrying on the pedantic argument about "both sides were violent" is exactly what is giving life to the narrative.

We need badly to come out and call a spade a spade: white supremacy is THE problem, 1000x over. Merely as an aside, it would be good if we got more peaceful protesters to reign in the Antifa, because they aren't helping the cause. They don't; however, share the blame for the rise of white supremacy, and are not threatening the general public whatsoever.

^^This ^^
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