Author Topic: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban  (Read 11957 times)

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Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2017, 02:19:37 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.

I'm fairly certain the legal precedent is that since they are not US citizens nor in the US, they are not protected by the 1st amendment.

However, I don't know if US citizen or permanent resident families would have standing, arguing that their family's separation is based on religious discrimination.

It is one of the fundamental tenets of our nation though. This country was started by immigrants, built by immigrants, and continues to be strengthened and renewed by immigrants. Deciding to discriminate immigrants based on religion goes against the core beliefs this country was originally built on.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2017, 02:23:30 PM »

Online SCeltic34

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.
There's a simple answer to that. Christians are not becoming radical terrorist in that region.

This is not a ban on Muslims. It's a preventive measure to keep radical terrorist out of our countries.

Except that it's not simple at all.  I'd imagine that if you presented that argument to many people living in those countries that you would get a very, very different perspective.

It's hard to argue that it's a preventative measure when numerous countries tied to terrorism have been left off the list.


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Pierce: "I called game."

- Paul Pierce on his game-winning buzzer beater, game 3 EC Semi-finals against the Atlanta Hawks

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2017, 02:27:54 PM »

Offline TrueFan

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.
There's a simple answer to that. Christians are not becoming radical terrorist in that region.

This is not a ban on Muslims. It's a preventive measure to keep radical terrorist out of our countries.

Except that it's not simple at all.  I'd imagine that if you presented that argument to many people living in those countries that you would get a very, very different perspective.

It's hard to argue that it's a preventative measure when numerous countries tied to terrorism have been left off the list.
it is that simple. Perhaps if a country was left off the list then  we are better able to vet those countries or the countries that are on the list are the ones where we may be seeing refugees coming in from prior arrangements.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2017, 02:28:20 PM »

Offline Cman

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VP Pence himself has called such bans unconstitutional and offensive (though this was 13 months ago--I guess he changed his mind).

https://twitter.com/GovPenceIN/status/674249808610066433
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Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2017, 02:31:48 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.

I'm fairly certain the legal precedent is that since they are not US citizens nor in the US, they are not protected by the 1st amendment.

However, I don't know if US citizen or permanent resident families would have standing, arguing that their family's separation is based on religious discrimination.

It is one of the fundamental tenets of our nation though. This country was started by immigrants, built by immigrants, and continues to be strengthened and renewed by immigrants. Deciding to discriminate immigrants based on religion goes against the core beliefs this country was originally built on.
It is only tangential to the muslim ban, but it seems unfathomable now that less than 30 years ago, two former Republican Presidents had this to say about immigration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixi9_cciy8w
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Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2017, 02:37:17 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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I understand this is a sensitive topic, so it is better to be precise.

Technically this is not a >Muslim ban> as mentioned in the title (although it can be argued that this is the Administration's intention, esp. since it reinforces the stereotype that all terrorists are Muslim).

It is more precise to say that this is a ban on the citizens of seven predominantly Muslim countries: Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, and Yemen. I don't know about the other countries, but Syria has a substantial Christian population, and some Persian Jews still live in Iran (though there are more in the US, and their majority now lives in Israel; wikipedia). At least on paper, this is not targeted on people of Muslim religion, rather on citizens of seven countries in crisis/civil war (although that they are all predominantly Muslim is a somehow weird coincidence).

There's nothing coincidental about it.  During the campaign, Trump specifically said he would call for "a total and complete shut down of Muslims entering the country."

It's starting. 
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PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2017, 02:38:22 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Look -- Some of you will cringe reading this but I have to say, so far I agree with almost every decision he has made. I know some of those decisions have been very controversial and I know a lot of people don't like him. But he has surrounded himself with some of the greatest minds and I know that history will judge him as one of the best if not the very best we have ever seen. There's no denying his leadership qualities are superb. I know not everyone is going to agree with me
but




these are just a few of the reasons I like Danny Ainge!

Ha
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2017, 02:40:22 PM »

Online SCeltic34

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.
There's a simple answer to that. Christians are not becoming radical terrorist in that region.

This is not a ban on Muslims. It's a preventive measure to keep radical terrorist out of our countries.

Except that it's not simple at all.  I'd imagine that if you presented that argument to many people living in those countries that you would get a very, very different perspective.

It's hard to argue that it's a preventative measure when numerous countries tied to terrorism have been left off the list.
it is that simple. Perhaps if a country was left off the list then  we are better able to vet those countries or the countries that are on the list are the ones where we may be seeing refugees coming in from prior arrangements.

None of the countries on the list have been directly tied to fatal terrorism on US soil for over 20 years, whereas countries left off the list have - multiple times including 9/11 and since then.

I can't say I follow your logic, but we'll agree to disagree.  I'd definitely say that it's a vast oversimplification to minimize the role of Christianity and religious tensions in many of those countries.  Look no further than what is often referred to as "collateral" in our wars in those regions, and I think it's easy to see why many would view Western powers as fundamentally terroristic in nature.


Broussard: "Did you call bank?"
Pierce: "I called game."

- Paul Pierce on his game-winning buzzer beater, game 3 EC Semi-finals against the Atlanta Hawks

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2017, 02:45:50 PM »

Offline saltlover

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.

I'm fairly certain the legal precedent is that since they are not US citizens nor in the US, they are not protected by the 1st amendment.

However, I don't know if US citizen or permanent resident families would have standing, arguing that their family's separation is based on religious discrimination.

It is one of the fundamental tenets of our nation though. This country was started by immigrants, built by immigrants, and continues to be strengthened and renewed by immigrants. Deciding to discriminate immigrants based on religion goes against the core beliefs this country was originally built on.

I completely agree.  I'm just saying that I'm fairly sure the courts ruled it permissible, even if reprehensible.  And the 1965 law didn't fix that, unfortunately.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2017, 02:48:32 PM »

Offline wiley

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.

I'm fairly certain the legal precedent is that since they are not US citizens nor in the US, they are not protected by the 1st amendment.

However, I don't know if US citizen or permanent resident families would have standing, arguing that their family's separation is based on religious discrimination.

It is one of the fundamental tenets of our nation though. This country was started by immigrants, built by immigrants, and continues to be strengthened and renewed by immigrants. Deciding to discriminate immigrants based on religion goes against the core beliefs this country was originally built on.
It is only tangential to the muslim ban, but it seems unfathomable now that less than 30 years ago, two former Republican Presidents had this to say about immigration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixi9_cciy8w

Thanks for that dramatic illustration of how Republicans have lost their way in the seeking of power. 

Of course defenders of Trump will try to say we live in a new and far more dangerous world.  Cowards!  Greedy punks!  This clip was long before 9/11 and subsequent attacks allowed Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and now Trump/Flynn/Bannon to profit massively at the expense of average Americans. 

At least Bush was smart enough to make clear it was not a war on Islam.  Trump has made no such pronouncement.  He may say it if asked but his actions and many of his statements are clearly anti-Muslim. 

History is and will not be kind to the Bush Cheney regime.  And it will not be kind to this one. 



BTW:   TP to Nickagenta! 

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2017, 03:07:02 PM »

Online SCeltic34

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It is unconstitutional to discriminate based on religion. I am surprised this hasn't been legally challenged yet. It is discrimination based on religion, because christians from those countries can still come to the US.
There's a simple answer to that. Christians are not becoming radical terrorist in that region.

This is not a ban on Muslims. It's a preventive measure to keep radical terrorist out of our countries.

Except that it's not simple at all.  I'd imagine that if you presented that argument to many people living in those countries that you would get a very, very different perspective.

It's hard to argue that it's a preventative measure when numerous countries tied to terrorism have been left off the list.
it is that simple. Perhaps if a country was left off the list then  we are better able to vet those countries or the countries that are on the list are the ones where we may be seeing refugees coming in from prior arrangements.

None of the countries on the list have been directly tied to fatal terrorism on US soil for over 20 years, whereas countries left off the list have - multiple times including 9/11 and since then.

I can't say I follow your logic, but we'll agree to disagree.  I'd definitely say that it's a vast oversimplification to minimize the role of Christianity and religious tensions in many of those countries.  Look no further than what is often referred to as "collateral" in our wars in those regions, and I think it's easy to see why many would view Western powers as fundamentally terroristic in nature.

Actually I just realized I (somehow) misconstrued your post.  So my apologies.  But this leads to direct questions about discrimination based on religion, which I'd definitely agree with others here isn't consistent with the foundation of this country.


Broussard: "Did you call bank?"
Pierce: "I called game."

- Paul Pierce on his game-winning buzzer beater, game 3 EC Semi-finals against the Atlanta Hawks

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2017, 03:10:04 PM »

Offline wiley

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iraqis-us-interpreter-contractor-first-detained_us_588cc5e5e4b0176377948d62?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Iraqi war veterans p---ed that their comrades are being detained and possibly thrown in the can for the time being.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2017, 03:18:55 PM »

Offline wiley

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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/28/airports-us-immigration-ban-muslim-countries-trump

Hooray for Dick Cheney growing a pair! (read down through whole article)

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2017, 03:38:33 PM »

Offline 2short

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It is going to be up to common sense republicans to try and keep trump in check.  There are some very good ones in senate but seems like a lot will follow like lemlings as long as trump "says" he is a republican.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2017, 03:43:00 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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This is a nightmare. It is a moment in the present that is easy to see will be looked back on with shame; as justification oeople are comparing this to things that are some of our country's more shameful actions.

It is so chaotic simply for the sake of hate. Not recommended by anyone in military or security positions. It is being applied to people with pre-existing visas, who were abroad when this order was written and were planning to return; people in research, people who have been working for our military in war zones, families and more.


It makes me think steve bannon wad being literal when he said he wanted to tear american government down. He is working american nazi slogans into inauguration speaches, and seems to be trying to find the line that will actually cause outright insubordination, be it fbi vs pres, cia vs pres, or military vs pres.

It is additionally ironic that this happened on holocaust memorial day, a day on which trump did not mention jews, and a day on which that spineless weasal who will sell any part of his soul to decrease taxes for the wealthy Ryan was tweeting "never again" (while not mentioning jews) while standing by smiling while trump signed an order barring refugees; in stark contrast to the other "never again" posters which were no merous examples of jews literally tirned away at our borders and killed in nazi camps. Shame on them all, and i hope that going from incredibly rich to fabulously rich is worth being part of what will be studied as one of the darkest, cruelest, most hateful authoritarian and restrictive factions in modern american history.