Author Topic: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban  (Read 13576 times)

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Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2017, 12:18:12 AM »

Offline jdz101

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a ban which doesn't apply to the country (Saudi Arabia) with the most 9/11 terrorists.

He is a sick, uneducated man doing sickening things that will make us all less safe in the end.
He will sink this country economically as well.  Will the next leader be able to clean up the mess
he makes? 

We are all forced into action now to save our country.  Even Madeline Albright is ready to register
as a Muslim. 

We are now led by a big brother wanna-be pack of vicious dogs.
This is how you hand victory to the terrorists.

As an international outsider looking in, the first week of policy changes seems like he's trying to run the country like its a large scale business and treating citizens like they're employees.

Looks like a dumpster fire already and I think even republican voters are going to have a hard time supporting his hard line stance on some of these things.


how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck was chris bosh?

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2017, 12:19:44 AM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Muslim ban? More like a ban against refugees from certain regions. If a country was omitted it's most likely because our Intel concluded we can successfully vet those regions.

Trump plans on creating safe zones in Syria and other war inflicted regions. Something the Obama administration failed to do.

He doesn't take his intelligience reports so how would he know?
He wouldn't take intelligence reports from the hand picked generals Obama used if that's what you meant.

Look at the mess in Syria Obama left Trump. Trump was left with having to take a hard stance against refugees. He's focusing instead on safe zones.

You don't really believe that do you? He didn't take the briefings because of "Obama's hand picked generals"?

These guys are career military men who spent decades getting where they are across multiple presidencies. Their job it to report current matters of national security to the commander in chief, no mater who he is. And the vast majority of them vote republican. I mean, the bar for "what a crazy thing to say" is shifting under Trump, but my god that is just silly.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2017, 12:25:51 AM »

Online triboy16f

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a ban which doesn't apply to the country (Saudi Arabia) with the most 9/11 terrorists.

He is a sick, uneducated man doing sickening things that will make us all less safe in the end.
He will sink this country economically as well.  Will the next leader be able to clean up the mess
he makes? 

We are all forced into action now to save our country.  Even Madeline Albright is ready to register
as a Muslim. 

We are now led by a big brother wanna-be pack of vicious dogs.
This is how you hand victory to the terrorists.

You shouldnt be surprised by this guy... He is doing everything he said he was going to do pre election

And Im no fan but the people have spoken and voted him in... What can you do?

If anything you should be mad at those that voted him in

He is a cold blooded businessman... that is running a country like its a corporation... Uncharted territory.. unpleasent roller coaster start no doubt

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2017, 12:29:18 AM »

Offline alewilliam789

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Muslim ban? More like a ban against refugees from certain regions. If a country was omitted it's most likely because our Intel concluded we can successfully vet those regions.

Trump plans on creating safe zones in Syria and other war inflicted regions. Something the Obama administration failed to do.

He doesn't take his intelligience reports so how would he know?
He wouldn't take intelligence reports from the hand picked generals Obama used if that's what you meant.

Look at the mess in Syria Obama left Trump. Trump was left with having to take a hard stance against refugees. He's focusing instead on safe zones.

The intelligence community in itself is non-partisan and have shown that they can serve either party effectively. Of course Trump would not lead you to believe that though

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2017, 12:31:43 AM »

Offline TrueFan

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Muslim ban? More like a ban against refugees from certain regions. If a country was omitted it's most likely because our Intel concluded we can successfully vet those regions.

Trump plans on creating safe zones in Syria and other war inflicted regions. Something the Obama administration failed to do.

He doesn't take his intelligience reports so how would he know?
He wouldn't take intelligence reports from the hand picked generals Obama used if that's what you meant.

Look at the mess in Syria Obama left Trump. Trump was left with having to take a hard stance against refugees. He's focusing instead on safe zones.

You don't really believe that do you? He didn't take the briefings because of "Obama's hand picked generals"?

These guys are career military men who spent decades getting where they are across multiple presidencies. Their job it to report current matters of national security to the commander in chief, no mater who he is. And the vast majority of them vote republican. I mean, the bar for "what a crazy thing to say" is shifting under Trump, but my god that is just silly.
Obama got rid of the generals who he didn't like. He also encouraged false reports to help his cause.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2017, 12:45:41 AM »

Offline greece666

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Please do not take this the wrong way, but I think this thread can't see the forest for the trees.

Discrimination against Muslims is a very serious issue, and it can set very bad precedents regarding the domestic policies of the US. But the real problem for Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia are the wars. It is hard to remember this today, but there was a time not so long away when Iraq (and not only) was a normal country, where people had jobs, families, homes.

I would rather not get into a discussion of US foreign policy here- just discussing Saudi Arabia or Israel would take hundreds of comments, but the number one priority to my mind is allowing Middle East and Central Asia countries return to regularity. Even if that means they have governments that are not entirely in favour of the US (I do not mean openly hostile governments). This is the crux of the matter IMO.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2017, 12:50:34 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I am not saying whether it is right and wrong but other presidents have done stuff. Even Carter banned people from a country at one time.   Roosevelt interred Japanese Americans and people love him.  Eisenhower had operation wetbacks and we waged a genocide war against the native people of this land.  For folks to act like this is Unamerican is showing your ignorance.   We have a dirty history.  Truth is we have an ugly history.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/16/the-past-six-presidents-have-all-used-executive-power-to-block-certain-classes-of-immigrants/

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924


Quote
This is still the law of the land, and I hope that a suit quickly results in an injunction.  You cannot discriminate based on country of origin.  A photo of the signing ceremony for this bill hangs in our house.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

Disgusting.

I think they will use this law to defeat the one you mention

Quote
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

Quote
. In 2015, the Supreme Court ruled that the government can deny someone a visa on national security grounds without a specific reason.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/06/15/donald-trumps-almost-true-claim-that-the-president-has-power-to-ban-any-class-of-persons/?utm_term=.161c8b03b013

Quote
He is a sick, uneducated man doing sickening things that will make us all less safe in the end.

I don't buy into  the it makes us "unsafe", because I am a veteran.   First, of all those who are radicalized hate us, now this is not going change.  Experts love to say that but I would ask you this have the countries that allowed the refugees in done in the last year regarding terrorism?   Not well.  Not all Muslims are bad people, but not all are good either, the same is true of folks in general including Christians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-europes-migrant-crisis-became-an-opportunity-for-isis/2016/04/21/ec8a7231-062d-4185-bb27-cc7295d35415_story.html?utm_term=.9a62f4e206d8

I know people often claim it is a recruiting tool, but us being in the Middle East is an even bigger one.  Here are just a few of the reasons and this would simply add to this list.

Quote
The U.S. consistently supports Middle East dictators
The U.S. “sanctions” anti-Islam propaganda
Has controlled the natural and industrial resources of Muslim countries
“Blindly” supports Israel against the Palestinians
Kills Muslim civillians indiscriminately in drone attacks
“Destroyed Iraq” in both 1991 and 2003
Maintains a military presence throughout the Middle East
The West hates and is hostile towards Muslims
The West wants to take over Middle East
The West is stealing Islamic countries’ oil

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2012/09/21/why-do-they-hate-us-its-a-pretty-long-list/

So don't act like this is a tipping  point for safety,  it goes much deeper that folks.   Some of us have defended this country.

Quote
But the real problem for Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia are the wars. It is hard to remember this today, but there was a time not so long away when Iraq (and not only) was a normal country, where people had jobs, families, homes.

Agree
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 12:56:10 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2017, 01:49:08 AM »

Offline wiley

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I am not saying whether it is right and wrong but other presidents have done stuff. Even Carter banned people from a country at one time.   Roosevelt interred Japanese Americans and people love him.  Eisenhower had operation wetbacks and we waged a genocide war against the native people of this land.  For folks to act like this is Unamerican is showing your ignorance.   We have a dirty history.  Truth is we have an ugly history.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/16/the-past-six-presidents-have-all-used-executive-power-to-block-certain-classes-of-immigrants/

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924


Quote
This is still the law of the land, and I hope that a suit quickly results in an injunction.  You cannot discriminate based on country of origin.  A photo of the signing ceremony for this bill hangs in our house.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

Disgusting.

I think they will use this law to defeat the one you mention

Quote
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

Quote
. In 2015, the Supreme Court ruled that the government can deny someone a visa on national security grounds without a specific reason.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/06/15/donald-trumps-almost-true-claim-that-the-president-has-power-to-ban-any-class-of-persons/?utm_term=.161c8b03b013

Quote
He is a sick, uneducated man doing sickening things that will make us all less safe in the end.

I don't buy into  the it makes us "unsafe", because I am a veteran.   First, of all those who are radicalized hate us, now this is not going change.  Experts love to say that but I would ask you this have the countries that allowed the refugees in done in the last year regarding terrorism?   Not well.  Not all Muslims are bad people, but not all are good either, the same is true of folks in general including Christians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-europes-migrant-crisis-became-an-opportunity-for-isis/2016/04/21/ec8a7231-062d-4185-bb27-cc7295d35415_story.html?utm_term=.9a62f4e206d8

I know people often claim it is a recruiting tool, but us being in the Middle East is an even bigger one.  Here are just a few of the reasons and this would simply add to this list.

Quote
The U.S. consistently supports Middle East dictators
The U.S. “sanctions” anti-Islam propaganda
Has controlled the natural and industrial resources of Muslim countries
“Blindly” supports Israel against the Palestinians
Kills Muslim civillians indiscriminately in drone attacks
“Destroyed Iraq” in both 1991 and 2003
Maintains a military presence throughout the Middle East
The West hates and is hostile towards Muslims
The West wants to take over Middle East
The West is stealing Islamic countries’ oil

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2012/09/21/why-do-they-hate-us-its-a-pretty-long-list/

So don't act like this is a tipping  point for safety,  it goes much deeper that folks.   Some of us have defended this country.

Quote
But the real problem for Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia are the wars. It is hard to remember this today, but there was a time not so long away when Iraq (and not only) was a normal country, where people had jobs, families, homes.

Agree

Yes I'm with you on most of your post. And thank you for your service.  I'm aware there is precedent for actions which, when looked back on by later generations are deemed shameful (Japanese internment, CIA overthrow of democratically elected foreign governments, etc..).  Certain past actions, though wrong, can be viewed under the lens of: well we were paranoid for good reason and more racist back then so of course we put them in camps.  Other past actions are just evil: CIA in Chile, etc etc. Soldiers, of course, are never to blame.  It's opportunistic politicians who sacrifice nothing, and in fact often gain popular support with the steps they take (GWB ramping up of Iraq war). 

I think we can use past transgressions that are regretted and admitted by our country to at times say "shame on you" in the present. 

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2017, 02:18:58 AM »

Offline alewilliam789

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Muslim ban? More like a ban against refugees from certain regions. If a country was omitted it's most likely because our Intel concluded we can successfully vet those regions.

Trump plans on creating safe zones in Syria and other war inflicted regions. Something the Obama administration failed to do.

He doesn't take his intelligience reports so how would he know?
He wouldn't take intelligence reports from the hand picked generals Obama used if that's what you meant.

Look at the mess in Syria Obama left Trump. Trump was left with having to take a hard stance against refugees. He's focusing instead on safe zones.

Yeah you know those safe zones you and Donald were talking about? Well he left them out of his executive order and it only pertains to extreme vetting and banning of refugees. So once again Donald Trump has played his supporters, like you, like puppets. If he so willingly lies to his supporters what do you think he will do to detractors? That's why people are scared

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-01-27/a-look-at-trumps-executive-order-on-refugees-immigration

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2017, 02:25:47 AM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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Muslim ban? More like a ban against refugees from certain regions. If a country was omitted it's most likely because our Intel concluded we can successfully vet those regions.

Trump plans on creating safe zones in Syria and other war inflicted regions. Something the Obama administration failed to do.

He doesn't take his intelligience reports so how would he know?
He wouldn't take intelligence reports from the hand picked generals Obama used if that's what you meant.

Look at the mess in Syria Obama left Trump. Trump was left with having to take a hard stance against refugees. He's focusing instead on safe zones.

You don't really believe that do you? He didn't take the briefings because of "Obama's hand picked generals"?

These guys are career military men who spent decades getting where they are across multiple presidencies. Their job it to report current matters of national security to the commander in chief, no mater who he is. And the vast majority of them vote republican. I mean, the bar for "what a crazy thing to say" is shifting under Trump, but my god that is just silly.
Obama got rid of the generals who he didn't like. He also encouraged false reports to help his cause.

Links?

All presidents empower the generals they like. Thats a BIG difference between ignoring, even publicly criticizing and doubting, intelligence your getting that you don't like.

It's a false equivalency. Is it alarming to you at all that this administration has proven (in only a week) to publicly push talking points that are obviously and verifiably untrue, as if they were fact to the American people? Forget crowd size, pointless walls, bans on religious groups. That's just noise meant to divide and distract people based on partisanship. The outright and repeated rejection of reason, truth and facts on a daily basis is extremely alarming. The entire country should be worried, because it should be clear to anyone, Republican or Democrat, that this man is not fit to be The President of the United States.

Even if you agree with the policies this President and this congress are pushing, it's not worth destroying the free press and putting the national discourse in a place where it doesn't matter what reality is, it only matters what you want to believe reality is. That's straight out of the totalitarianism playbook. You have to see this right? If you think I'm wrong in that opinion, please tell me why. This is dangerous territory we're swimming into.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2017, 03:06:25 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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Please do not take this the wrong way, but I think this thread can't see the forest for the trees.

Discrimination against Muslims is a very serious issue, and it can set very bad precedents regarding the domestic policies of the US. But the real problem for Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia are the wars. It is hard to remember this today, but there was a time not so long away when Iraq (and not only) was a normal country, where people had jobs, families, homes.

I would rather not get into a discussion of US foreign policy here- just discussing Saudi Arabia or Israel would take hundreds of comments, but the number one priority to my mind is allowing Middle East and Central Asia countries return to regularity. Even if that means they have governments that are not entirely in favour of the US (I do not mean openly hostile governments). This is the crux of the matter IMO.

As a non-American I support this view. Sometimes there's too much meddling from the US Government. Add the fact that media bias is very real and they control the news and you have a big problem for less powerful countries.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2017, 05:08:10 AM »

Online saltlover

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I am not saying whether it is right and wrong but other presidents have done stuff. Even Carter banned people from a country at one time.   Roosevelt interred Japanese Americans and people love him.  Eisenhower had operation wetbacks and we waged a genocide war against the native people of this land.  For folks to act like this is Unamerican is showing your ignorance.   We have a dirty history.  Truth is we have an ugly history.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/16/the-past-six-presidents-have-all-used-executive-power-to-block-certain-classes-of-immigrants/

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924


Quote
This is still the law of the land, and I hope that a suit quickly results in an injunction.  You cannot discriminate based on country of origin.  A photo of the signing ceremony for this bill hangs in our house.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

Disgusting.

I think they will use this law to defeat the one you mention

Quote
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

Quote
. In 2015, the Supreme Court ruled that the government can deny someone a visa on national security grounds without a specific reason.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/06/15/donald-trumps-almost-true-claim-that-the-president-has-power-to-ban-any-class-of-persons/?utm_term=.161c8b03b013

Quote
He is a sick, uneducated man doing sickening things that will make us all less safe in the end.

I don't buy into  the it makes us "unsafe", because I am a veteran.   First, of all those who are radicalized hate us, now this is not going change.  Experts love to say that but I would ask you this have the countries that allowed the refugees in done in the last year regarding terrorism?   Not well.  Not all Muslims are bad people, but not all are good either, the same is true of folks in general including Christians.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-europes-migrant-crisis-became-an-opportunity-for-isis/2016/04/21/ec8a7231-062d-4185-bb27-cc7295d35415_story.html?utm_term=.9a62f4e206d8

I know people often claim it is a recruiting tool, but us being in the Middle East is an even bigger one.  Here are just a few of the reasons and this would simply add to this list.

Quote
The U.S. consistently supports Middle East dictators
The U.S. “sanctions” anti-Islam propaganda
Has controlled the natural and industrial resources of Muslim countries
“Blindly” supports Israel against the Palestinians
Kills Muslim civillians indiscriminately in drone attacks
“Destroyed Iraq” in both 1991 and 2003
Maintains a military presence throughout the Middle East
The West hates and is hostile towards Muslims
The West wants to take over Middle East
The West is stealing Islamic countries’ oil

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2012/09/21/why-do-they-hate-us-its-a-pretty-long-list/

So don't act like this is a tipping  point for safety,  it goes much deeper that folks.   Some of us have defended this country.

Quote
But the real problem for Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia are the wars. It is hard to remember this today, but there was a time not so long away when Iraq (and not only) was a normal country, where people had jobs, families, homes.

Agree

Citing Roosevelt and Eisenhower is irrelevant.  The 1965 law essentially said that could not happen again unless the President was given explicit permission by Congress.  You're right that the President can bar temporary visas (which is largely what Carter did), but the President cannot bar people from seeking permanent residency, who would otherwise qualify, from specific countries.  It is unlawful.  Period.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/opinion/trumps-immigration-ban-is-illegal.html?_r=0&referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2017, 06:41:21 AM »

Offline greece666

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@saltlover

If Trump signed the executive order knowing it  is illegal and/or without having consulted with legal advisors first, this is both embarassing and ludicrous.

I hold some reservation because I do not know enough on legal matters to have an opinion of my own, and I do not trust much the Cato Institute where Bier is an analyst. But if Bier is indeed right, this is an awful way for Trump to start his term.

Edit: unlawful, not illegal.

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2017, 07:56:48 AM »

Offline GratefulCs

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Muslim ban? More like a ban against refugees from certain regions. If a country was omitted it's most likely because our Intel concluded we can successfully vet those regions.

Trump plans on creating safe zones in Syria and other war inflicted regions. Something the Obama administration failed to do.

He doesn't take his intelligience reports so how would he know?
He wouldn't take intelligence reports from the hand picked generals Obama used if that's what you meant.

Look at the mess in Syria Obama left Trump. Trump was left with having to take a hard stance against refugees. He's focusing instead on safe zones.
so in other words: "thanks Obama"
I trust Danny Ainge

Re: Shame on Trump for Muslim Ban
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2017, 08:01:12 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
Citing Roosevelt and Eisenhower is irrelevant.  The 1965 law essentially said that could not happen again unless the President was given explicit permission by Congress.  You're right that the President can bar temporary visas (which is largely what Carter did), but the President cannot bar people from seeking permanent residency, who would otherwise qualify, from specific countries.  It is unlawful.  Period.


Who controls Congress?  You acted like this has never happened before and I simply pointed it has and we have a rich history of such measures.  The fact that it has happened before gives us a legal precedence.   It is pretty clear, Trump does not care about how we look in the rest of the world's eyes.

If any of the new folks are polygamists they can deny them.  There are all kinds of little games they can play.  They might use this clause, perhaps.

Quote
(t) [12] Foreign residence requirement
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), no person admitted under section 1101(a)(15)(Q)(ii)(I) of this title, or acquiring such status after admission, shall be eligible to apply for nonimmigrant status, an immigrant visa, or permanent residence under this chapter until it is established that such person has resided and been physically present in the person’s country of nationality or last residence for an aggregate of at least 2 years following departure from the United States.

8 U.S. Code § 1182 - Inadmissible aliens
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

I bet Trump has lawyers that have told him that this is legal and we shall see, I can see him doing this without vetting it.  If he has not then he deserves any shame that comes with this matter.

Folks acted like Trump can't win.  That did not stop him.  Folks act like he can't do this, too.  It won't stop him either.    It may be that he can and it is time for action like writing your congress person.  Posting it here may allow folks to vent, but if you feel so poorly about it then cut and paste it to your congressman or multiple ones?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 08:07:56 AM by Celtics4ever »