Lonzo Ball Thread (Merged)

[Tr1boy]

Lavar thinks Lonzo is the next Magic

Many have compared him to Kidd already

How about a taller Rondo with a shot?

[Ilikesports17]

Lavar thinks Lonzo is the next Magic

Many have compared him to Kidd already

How about a taller Rondo with a shot?

Ball isnt shifty or quick, doesnt have a great handle, cant defend, and moves the Ball much better than Rondo who had a tendency to see the ball stick in his hands.

[Celtics4ever]

Lavar thinks Lonzo is the next Magic

Many have compared him to Kidd already

How about a taller Rondo with a shot?

Neat article below claims he has several weaknesses to include:

He doesn't (can't?) shoot 2-point jump shots
      This is huge. Guess how many 2-point jump shots Lonzo Ball has made this season. That means a shot that isn't a 3-pointer, layup or dunk. Go ahead, think about it ... we have time. Alright, that's enough, you'll never get it.

Two.

     According to Hoop-Math.com, Ball has made just two shots in 22 games so far this season that weren't 3s or dunks. And he has only attempted 11 of them. Eleven! While you pick your jaw up off the floor, let's examine what that means. Some might tout the stat as a sign that Ball is ready for the modern NBA, a paragon of the Daryl Morey/Stephen Curry nature of a league where 3s reign supreme and we scoff at low-percentage 2-point jump shots.

He's afraid of contact
      Ball has a slight frame and will put on weight, but his ability to finish through contact needs to vastly improve. Ball lacks elite NBA athleticism, but is very tricky around the basket -- he's able to use both hands to elude defenders and finish layups. Those plays are generally in transition when he can get separation from the defender.
        When Ball runs into a physical defender, he doesn't finish the same way. He's shooting 76 percent on shots at the rim, which is good, but that's because he usually doesn't even try to finish when there are defenders in his way, electing to pass the ball out to the perimeter. That's fine for now, but shying away from contact isn't something that's going to fly at the NBA level.

Defense
      This last one is harder to quantify, but let's just call it what it is: Ball is a terrible one-on-one defender. UCLA has done a great job hiding him with zones and by switching nearly everything when in man-to-man, but when Ball gets isolated against a scoring guard, it's not pretty.
       In the Bruins' game against Arizona, for example, when Ball found himself occasionally matched up against stronger guards like Kadeem Allen and Rawle Alkins, or quicker guards like Kobi Simmons, he was quickly exposed. In this clip, Simmons blows by a flat-footed Ball, leaving him with no choice but to take a desperation swipe at the ball, which drew a foul

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/why-lonzo-ball-isnt-the-surefire-nba-superstar-people-seem-to-think-he-is/

Ball has needed another to set him up for a lot of his shots at the rim.   I think he is over rated as a slasher.

51.5 percent of Ball’s makes at the rim were assisted at UCLA, per Hoop-Math.com. Digging even deeper with Synergy Stats, 11.9 percent of his non-miscellaneous play type half-court finishing possessions were on off-ball cuts, a high mark for a lead guard. For comparison’s sake, Fultz finished 4.9 percent of his possessions on cuts with the same modifier.

https://fansided.com/2017/05/26/lonzo-ball-scouting-report-finishing/


This is a neat read how he only shot well with one type of ball in college.  Sadly it was Wilson balls which they do not use in the NBA.

Let’s reiterate that we’re working with a small, possibly insignificant sample size — for all college players, not just Ball. It’s possible that Ball shoots better with the Wilson ball because he plays more games with it, practices more with it, and therefore is more adjusted to it. (Wilson is also the ball of choice in Ball family photo shoots with Slam, Los Angeles Magazine, and ESPN.) But it’s also possible that his percentages with the Nike ball are more true to his actual shooting ability. Ball shot 30.3 percent on 89 3-point attempts using an Adidas ball at Adidas Nations, per Draft Express. He shot 36 percent on 224 triples as a senior at Chino Hills, per MaxPreps. Despite his reputation, Ball’s production at UCLA is actually the outlier of the samples we have access to.
Considering Ball’s odd mechanics that have made him a one-trick pony off the dribble and his hitch at the bottom of his release, it’s plausible that the grippy feel of a Wilson ball helps him over any other ball. He might not be the only one. UCLA switched from Adidas to Wilson in 2014, when Raptors guard Norman Powell was starting his senior year at the school. Powell shot 42.6 percent from 3 at home with the Wilson ball, versus 20.7 percent at away or neutral sites. Powell felt the difference. “The Adidas basketball was a lot more harder, firmer. The Wilson [was] a lot more smoother, had deeper ridges where you can line up the groove to get your shot,” Powell told The Ringer. “You get a little bit more control. You can feel the ball a little bit more.”

https://theringer.com/lonzo-ball-ucla-shooting-mechanics-6eeda2ef3e41


Fox ate him alive when it mattered.

[chilidawg]

Lavar thinks Lonzo is the next Magic

Many have compared him to Kidd already

How about a taller Rondo with a shot?

Neat article below claims he has several weaknesses to include:

He doesn't (can't?) shoot 2-point jump shots
      This is huge. Guess how many 2-point jump shots Lonzo Ball has made this season. That means a shot that isn't a 3-pointer, layup or dunk. Go ahead, think about it ... we have time. Alright, that's enough, you'll never get it.

Two.

     According to Hoop-Math.com, Ball has made just two shots in 22 games so far this season that weren't 3s or dunks. And he has only attempted 11 of them. Eleven! While you pick your jaw up off the floor, let's examine what that means. Some might tout the stat as a sign that Ball is ready for the modern NBA, a paragon of the Daryl Morey/Stephen Curry nature of a league where 3s reign supreme and we scoff at low-percentage 2-point jump shots.

He's afraid of contact
      Ball has a slight frame and will put on weight, but his ability to finish through contact needs to vastly improve. Ball lacks elite NBA athleticism, but is very tricky around the basket -- he's able to use both hands to elude defenders and finish layups. Those plays are generally in transition when he can get separation from the defender.
        When Ball runs into a physical defender, he doesn't finish the same way. He's shooting 76 percent on shots at the rim, which is good, but that's because he usually doesn't even try to finish when there are defenders in his way, electing to pass the ball out to the perimeter. That's fine for now, but shying away from contact isn't something that's going to fly at the NBA level.

Defense
      This last one is harder to quantify, but let's just call it what it is: Ball is a terrible one-on-one defender. UCLA has done a great job hiding him with zones and by switching nearly everything when in man-to-man, but when Ball gets isolated against a scoring guard, it's not pretty.
       In the Bruins' game against Arizona, for example, when Ball found himself occasionally matched up against stronger guards like Kadeem Allen and Rawle Alkins, or quicker guards like Kobi Simmons, he was quickly exposed. In this clip, Simmons blows by a flat-footed Ball, leaving him with no choice but to take a desperation swipe at the ball, which drew a foul

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/why-lonzo-ball-isnt-the-surefire-nba-superstar-people-seem-to-think-he-is/

Ball has needed another to set him up for a lot of his shots at the rim.   I think he is over rated as a slasher.

51.5 percent of Ball’s makes at the rim were assisted at UCLA, per Hoop-Math.com. Digging even deeper with Synergy Stats, 11.9 percent of his non-miscellaneous play type half-court finishing possessions were on off-ball cuts, a high mark for a lead guard. For comparison’s sake, Fultz finished 4.9 percent of his possessions on cuts with the same modifier.

https://fansided.com/2017/05/26/lonzo-ball-scouting-report-finishing/


This is a neat read how he only shot well with one type of ball in college.  Sadly it was Wilson balls which they do not use in the NBA.

Let’s reiterate that we’re working with a small, possibly insignificant sample size — for all college players, not just Ball. It’s possible that Ball shoots better with the Wilson ball because he plays more games with it, practices more with it, and therefore is more adjusted to it. (Wilson is also the ball of choice in Ball family photo shoots with Slam, Los Angeles Magazine, and ESPN.) But it’s also possible that his percentages with the Nike ball are more true to his actual shooting ability. Ball shot 30.3 percent on 89 3-point attempts using an Adidas ball at Adidas Nations, per Draft Express. He shot 36 percent on 224 triples as a senior at Chino Hills, per MaxPreps. Despite his reputation, Ball’s production at UCLA is actually the outlier of the samples we have access to.
Considering Ball’s odd mechanics that have made him a one-trick pony off the dribble and his hitch at the bottom of his release, it’s plausible that the grippy feel of a Wilson ball helps him over any other ball. He might not be the only one. UCLA switched from Adidas to Wilson in 2014, when Raptors guard Norman Powell was starting his senior year at the school. Powell shot 42.6 percent from 3 at home with the Wilson ball, versus 20.7 percent at away or neutral sites. Powell felt the difference. “The Adidas basketball was a lot more harder, firmer. The Wilson [was] a lot more smoother, had deeper ridges where you can line up the groove to get your shot,” Powell told The Ringer. “You get a little bit more control. You can feel the ball a little bit more.”

https://theringer.com/lonzo-ball-ucla-shooting-mechanics-6eeda2ef3e41


Fox ate him alive when it mattered.

And Fultz didn't (of course it didn't matter because his team sucked).  Does that mean Fox is better than Fultz?

[LakersFan_33]

Do you guys think Jackson would be the best pick for the Lakers at #2?

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Do you guys think Jackson would be the best pick for the Lakers at #2?

How does he fit next to Ingram?

Aside from that, Jackson could be the best player in the draft. It's not common that the #1 ends up the best. Jackson and Monk have as good a chance as being the stars of this draft as Fultz does.

[LakersFan_33]

Do you guys think Jackson would be the best pick for the Lakers at #2?

How does he fit next to Ingram?

Aside from that, Jackson could be the best player in the draft. It's not common that the #1 ends up the best. Jackson and Monk have as good a chance as being the stars of this draft as Fultz does.

Ingram started to shoot better post ASB (three's included). If he continues improving his shot, then Jackson would fit great next to him. Defensively, the pairing would have amazing potential. If Ingram's shot goes back to sucking, though, then it would be tough because the spacing would suffer with JJ and BI on the same floor.

[Kaz]

I think Lonzo will be a good fit for the Lakers, and Ingram will take a big step forward in year 2 with a legit facilitator on the team.  I don't think a core of Russell/Lonzo/Ingram/Randle or Nance are exactly destined to be world beaters, but it is certainly something to build around and they should be a playoff team in a say 5 years barring any sudden trades.

[green_bballers13]

I think Lonzo will be a good fit for the Lakers, and Ingram will take a big step forward in year 2 with a legit facilitator on the team.  I don't think a core of Russell/Lonzo/Ingram/Randle or Nance are exactly destined to be world beaters, but it is certainly something to build around and they should be a playoff team in a say 5 years barring any sudden trades.

The Lakers are miles away from contending, but I think they could be in good shape in two years to make the playoffs.

Ball
Russell
Ingram
George
2018 lottery pick (Ayton, Bamba, etc)

Bench: Randle, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac

[A Future of Stevens]

I think Lonzo will be a good fit for the Lakers, and Ingram will take a big step forward in year 2 with a legit facilitator on the team.  I don't think a core of Russell/Lonzo/Ingram/Randle or Nance are exactly destined to be world beaters, but it is certainly something to build around and they should be a playoff team in a say 5 years barring any sudden trades.

The Lakers are miles away from contending, but I think they could be in good shape in two years to make the playoffs.

Ball
Russell
Ingram
George
2018 lottery pick (Ayton, Bamba, etc)

Bench: Randle, Clarkson, Nance, Zubac

Lakers lose their 2018 pick btw.

[CelticsElite]

Lakers were ranked 26th in Assists per game and had near last ranking in asist/turnover ratio..ball helps them in this category

[Somebody]

Lavar thinks Lonzo is the next Magic

Many have compared him to Kidd already

How about a taller Rondo with a shot?

Neat article below claims he has several weaknesses to include:

He doesn't (can't?) shoot 2-point jump shots
      This is huge. Guess how many 2-point jump shots Lonzo Ball has made this season. That means a shot that isn't a 3-pointer, layup or dunk. Go ahead, think about it ... we have time. Alright, that's enough, you'll never get it.

Two.

     According to Hoop-Math.com, Ball has made just two shots in 22 games so far this season that weren't 3s or dunks. And he has only attempted 11 of them. Eleven! While you pick your jaw up off the floor, let's examine what that means. Some might tout the stat as a sign that Ball is ready for the modern NBA, a paragon of the Daryl Morey/Stephen Curry nature of a league where 3s reign supreme and we scoff at low-percentage 2-point jump shots.

He's afraid of contact
      Ball has a slight frame and will put on weight, but his ability to finish through contact needs to vastly improve. Ball lacks elite NBA athleticism, but is very tricky around the basket -- he's able to use both hands to elude defenders and finish layups. Those plays are generally in transition when he can get separation from the defender.
        When Ball runs into a physical defender, he doesn't finish the same way. He's shooting 76 percent on shots at the rim, which is good, but that's because he usually doesn't even try to finish when there are defenders in his way, electing to pass the ball out to the perimeter. That's fine for now, but shying away from contact isn't something that's going to fly at the NBA level.

Defense
      This last one is harder to quantify, but let's just call it what it is: Ball is a terrible one-on-one defender. UCLA has done a great job hiding him with zones and by switching nearly everything when in man-to-man, but when Ball gets isolated against a scoring guard, it's not pretty.
       In the Bruins' game against Arizona, for example, when Ball found himself occasionally matched up against stronger guards like Kadeem Allen and Rawle Alkins, or quicker guards like Kobi Simmons, he was quickly exposed. In this clip, Simmons blows by a flat-footed Ball, leaving him with no choice but to take a desperation swipe at the ball, which drew a foul

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/why-lonzo-ball-isnt-the-surefire-nba-superstar-people-seem-to-think-he-is/

Ball has needed another to set him up for a lot of his shots at the rim.   I think he is over rated as a slasher.

51.5 percent of Ball’s makes at the rim were assisted at UCLA, per Hoop-Math.com. Digging even deeper with Synergy Stats, 11.9 percent of his non-miscellaneous play type half-court finishing possessions were on off-ball cuts, a high mark for a lead guard. For comparison’s sake, Fultz finished 4.9 percent of his possessions on cuts with the same modifier.

https://fansided.com/2017/05/26/lonzo-ball-scouting-report-finishing/


This is a neat read how he only shot well with one type of ball in college.  Sadly it was Wilson balls which they do not use in the NBA.

Let’s reiterate that we’re working with a small, possibly insignificant sample size — for all college players, not just Ball. It’s possible that Ball shoots better with the Wilson ball because he plays more games with it, practices more with it, and therefore is more adjusted to it. (Wilson is also the ball of choice in Ball family photo shoots with Slam, Los Angeles Magazine, and ESPN.) But it’s also possible that his percentages with the Nike ball are more true to his actual shooting ability. Ball shot 30.3 percent on 89 3-point attempts using an Adidas ball at Adidas Nations, per Draft Express. He shot 36 percent on 224 triples as a senior at Chino Hills, per MaxPreps. Despite his reputation, Ball’s production at UCLA is actually the outlier of the samples we have access to.
Considering Ball’s odd mechanics that have made him a one-trick pony off the dribble and his hitch at the bottom of his release, it’s plausible that the grippy feel of a Wilson ball helps him over any other ball. He might not be the only one. UCLA switched from Adidas to Wilson in 2014, when Raptors guard Norman Powell was starting his senior year at the school. Powell shot 42.6 percent from 3 at home with the Wilson ball, versus 20.7 percent at away or neutral sites. Powell felt the difference. “The Adidas basketball was a lot more harder, firmer. The Wilson [was] a lot more smoother, had deeper ridges where you can line up the groove to get your shot,” Powell told The Ringer. “You get a little bit more control. You can feel the ball a little bit more.”

https://theringer.com/lonzo-ball-ucla-shooting-mechanics-6eeda2ef3e41


Fox ate him alive when it mattered.

And Fultz didn't (of course it didn't matter because his team sucked).  Does that mean Fox is better than Fultz?

NBA game Spalding balls are as good as, if not better than Wilson balls. He'll only have problems shooting f team USA lol

[footey]

I like Fultz. A lot. I think he is the guy that we should draft. His skill set is pre-eminent.

But I must say this: There is something about Lonzo Ball, his confidence, his personae, that really intrigues me. He comes across as a very confident leader. There are not a lot of guys like that.

I encourage you to watch his interview after his workout with the Lakers:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19571745/lonzo-ball-works-los-angeles-lakers-team-wants-play-for

Put aside the redundancy of the answers: that is the fault of the fawning LA reporters. (I was waiting for at least one of them to ask what he would do if the Celtics drafted him. Of course no one did.)  This kid comes across as a confident leader, a winner, a guy who is going to lead his team.  We can argue back and forth about how he can't go to his right to shoot, how he has weird shooting mechanics, how he can't drive by guys, etc., etc.  The same criticisms could have been lodged against Magic and Kidd when they came into the league.

I still want Fultz. And over the long term, am confident he will be a very good player. 

But don't sell Ball short.  And don't be surprised if he becomes the rookie of the year, and is the most talked about new player in the NBA.

[Granath]

Do you guys think Jackson would be the best pick for the Lakers at #2?

How does he fit next to Ingram?

Aside from that, Jackson could be the best player in the draft. It's not common that the #1 ends up the best. Jackson and Monk have as good a chance as being the stars of this draft as Fultz does.

Don't be so certain about that. Where there's been a clear #1 in a decently strong draft, that player has often turned out to be the best player and even if not they've turned out to be very good if their careers weren't derailed by injury.

Here are the years from 2000-2015 where the #1 pick is arguably the best player in the draft:

2000 - Kenyon Martin was clearly the best player before two microfracture surgeries brought him down.
2002 - Yao vs Amare. Take your pick. I'm taking Yao.
2003 - Lebron. 'Nuff said.
2004 - Dwight Howard. 'Nuff said.
2008 - Derrick Rose was pretty special until injuries though I don't think he would have reached the heights of Westbrook.
2009 - Griffin, Curry, Harden. I'll give the edge to the other two.
2010 - John Wall or PG13
2012 - Anthony Davis
2014 - Wiggins still looks to be the head of this class.
2015 - KAT

That looks to me like a solid 6 out of 16 years ('00, '02, '03, '04, 12, 14, 15) where the #1 pick is far and away the best guy in the draft without much dispute. Three others it's arguable ('08, '09, 10) that they're in the running. So having the #1 pick as the best player in the draft seems to be common enough.

The other years were:

'01 - Kwame Brown (Michael Jordan's pick)
'05 - Bogut
'06 - Bargnani
'07 - Oden
11 - Irving
13 - Bennett

What's interesting about that pattern is that only Oden and Irving were the true clear picks going into the draft (and you could argue about Oden vs Durant since some GMs preferred KD). Irving has been good (Leonard is clearly better and so is Butler) and Oden...well, we know what happened to him.

Now when there wasn't a clear #1 going in things are very, very different. The other years there really wasn't a clear #1. Bogut wasn't (Chris Paul was my guy that year) and the other years ('01, '06, 13) were known as exceptionally weak drafts before the first pick was ever made. That's not with 20/20 hindsight either. Those were just bad drafts and with no clear-cut #1 the draft became much more of a crapshoot.

So recent history shows that the #1 pick is often the best player, especially in those years where there is a clear #1 coming into the draft (much like this year). In the years where there was a clear favorite coming in and they didn't end up as the best either they were still very good (Griffin, Wall) or their careers were derailed by injuries (Oden, Rose). In the years where there was no clear #1 then things fall off the rails.

In short, I like our chances this year of Fultz being THE stud of the draft.

[footey]

Talk of Lakers saying that they are "split" on Lonzo Ball is BS according to Colin Cowherd.

 http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/colin-cowherd-explains-why-the-lakers-would-never-pass-on-lonzo-ball-060617

 He makes a compelling argument: The Lakers need Ball to be relevant again fast, because they have a huge TV deal with Time Warner that puts pressure on them to have good ratings.  HE also says they are putting up this smokescreen so that the Celtics don't kick the tires more with Ball, or threaten to take him, as leverage.

This makes sense. Danny also seems to be playing possum a bit about Fultz, before and after the workout, suggesting that there are several guys they are interested in taking with the #1 pick. He has also on several occasions spoken very respectfully of Ball's decision not to work out with them, and that they have enough information to properly evaluate him.

I have a feeling we will see more cat and mouse here up to draft night. Just think that both teams are too transparent of what they really want and it won't end up any differently (Fultz to Boston and Ball to Lakers).

I also feel that we are so focused on Fultz here, that we are really missing out on looking closer at the Ball option. The fact is, we have the No. 1 pick and can take either guy (or anyone else for that matter). 

I think the Celtics staff is spending a lot more time thinking the Ball option through than we are on this blog, that's for sure.