Author Topic: Stevens: We're not good enough defensively...to win at the level we want to win.  (Read 1534 times)

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Online jpotter33

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Here's an article with quotes from Stevens echoing the perception many of us have had this season, especially during this current winning streak. I just don't think we'll reach our goals if we continue to play how we're currently playing with a lackluster effort on the defensive end.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2017/01/brad_stevens_celtics_just_not_good_enough_defensively

Quote
Brad Stevens is in no mood to gaze at silver linings. Even as the Celtics were winning nine of 11 games heading into Wednesday’s meeting with New York, he was well aware of the Sword of Damocles that hung perilously above.

The fact it impaled his lads in a 117-106 loss made the coach none too excited about acknowledging the positive reality that the Celts have managed to get themselves 10 games over .500 while still having abundant room for growth.

“Yeah, I hope so,” said Stevens.

The coach barely paused before adding, “We’re just not good enough defensively. That’s the bottom line. We’re not good enough to win at the level we want to win if we don’t get better on the defensive end of the floor.”

The numbers agree that things have changed for the worse. Last season, the Celtics gave up 102.5 points a game; this year they’re allowing 104.8.

And if it’s trends you seek, then note how they held opponents to fewer than 100 points seven times in the season’s first 15 games. They have accomplished that feat just once in the last 15 outings (Monday’s 108-98 win over Charlotte).


The Celts are scoring more this season, too, though their rise (105.7 last year to 106.9) doesn’t match their defensive fall-off. But Stevens isn’t ascribing to the notion that better offense has led to letting off the defensive pedal.

“I don’t think that has any bearing on it,” he said. “We just don’t challenge shots the way we did last year, and we haven’t rebounded at all. Those two things have really hurt us.”

Marcus Smart, however, believes the increased offensive proficiency — improved field goal percentage from .439 to .452 (.335 to .368 on 3-pointers) — could be playing a part at the other end of the floor.

“To a certain extent,” he said. “We kind of slid away from the defensive aspect of it because we were scoring the ball so well, but we’ve got to get back to understanding that we were scoring the ball so well because we were playing defense. We were getting stops, we were getting rebounds, and we were getting out and running. You can’t do that when those guys are getting rebounds and getting extra shots.”

Ah, those extra shots.

Prior to Wednesday’s game, Stevens had talked about the Celts’ initial defensive thrust being fairly good, with the greater problem coming when shots were missed and rebounds found their way back into the hands of the offense for additional opportunities. The Knicks, for example, pulled down offensive caroms and outscored the C’s, 24-12, in second-chance points.

But Stevens isn’t as willing now to see the dichotomy, and, really, surrendering pieces of offensive glass is all about defensive positioning anyway — guys getting caught out of place because they helped on someone and didn’t have a teammate fill their spot.

“Everything,” said Stevens when asked about pinpointing the main defensive issue. “The whole thing. But the boards is a big part of that.”

To many in the Celtics dressing room, the solution is largely about making the commitment.

“Definitely,” said Kelly Olynyk. “We know what to do. We’ve just got to go out and do it.

“Other guys are going to have good nights and make shots. You’re in the NBA. You’re going to be playing against the best players in the world. But you’ve got to have the same effort every night, and you’ve got to have each other’s backs. I mean, these are good offensive players you’re going against. They’re going to go by you sometimes, but you’ve got to be able to cover for each other and cover for the guy who covered for the other guy and so on — and play with multiple efforts.”

Smart echoed the group sentiment.

“It’s about talking,” he said. “We’ve got to continue to talk for 48 minutes.

“We’re not talking. We don’t have all five guys engaged and talking, and then we also don’t have everybody rebounding. We do have some games where we play good D, but we’ve got to get more consistent in that aspect of the game. We can’t let teams come in here and outrebound us — here or on the road. We have to compete with all five guys.”

Otherwise, on nights like Wednesday when they shoot 38.5 percent from the floor, the Celtics will be lunch for even teams like the Knicks.

Offline mr. dee

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Well, playing small ball when you have personnels for big lineup won't get you rebounds.

Offline colincb

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Best rebounder from last year is in TOR and was replaced by a weaker rebounder in AH.

Offline Ilikesports17

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Best rebounder from last year is in TOR and was replaced by a weaker rebounder in AH.
Horfords superior defense should make up for that.
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Offline mmmmm

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Well, playing small ball when you have personnels for big lineup won't get you rebounds.

Seriously.  I posted the following in the 'Horford and KO - heating up' thread, but it seems appropriate here:
Quote
And so ... in the Knicks game, Stevens promptly plays Olynyk just 12 minutes, and notably, no time overlapping with Horford.

In a game where we could have used some size for rebounding, KO played only 12 minutes (barely enough time to get warmed up) and Amir for just 18.

Amir actually played very well in this game, scoring 10 and grabbing 7 rebounds in that short time.  That's a 20/14 per 36 pace.   And then he got essentially no run at all after midway through the third.   Just one minute in the 4th, as NYK pulled away.

I'm more than a little puzzled as to what Brad's strategy here was.


I mean, come on, Brad.  You are the one who keeps putting the three-guard lineups out there WHEN THEY ARE MEASURABLY HORRIBLE!

Sorry for shouting.

The three-guard lineups, with all three of Avery, Isaiah and Marcus (at the 3) on the floor, have a DefRtg of 115.2.  That's 5 points worse than the C's overall.   And it's got just a 110.7 offensive rating.

The two-guard combo of Isaiah & Avery (with neither Marcus nor Terry) on the floor immediately improves to 111.7 on defense and an offensive rating of 116.6.

That's a net swing of +9.4 points per 100 possessions!!!

The two guard combo of Isaiah and Marcus (with neither Avery nor Terry) on the floor doesn't do as well defensively, with DRtg of 116.6, but it at last more than makes up for it offensively with a 121.8 ORtg.   Again, that's a +9.7 net improvement over the 3-guard sample!!

Brad:  Stop it.  Please.  You are killing me.  NO MORE 3-GUARD!!!!


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Online jpotter33

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Well, playing small ball when you have personnels for big lineup won't get you rebounds.

Seriously.  I posted the following in the 'Horford and KO - heating up' thread, but it seems appropriate here:
Quote
And so ... in the Knicks game, Stevens promptly plays Olynyk just 12 minutes, and notably, no time overlapping with Horford.

In a game where we could have used some size for rebounding, KO played only 12 minutes (barely enough time to get warmed up) and Amir for just 18.

Amir actually played very well in this game, scoring 10 and grabbing 7 rebounds in that short time.  That's a 20/14 per 36 pace.   And then he got essentially no run at all after midway through the third.   Just one minute in the 4th, as NYK pulled away.

I'm more than a little puzzled as to what Brad's strategy here was.


I mean, come on, Brad.  You are the one who keeps putting the three-guard lineups out there WHEN THEY ARE MEASURABLY HORRIBLE!

Sorry for shouting.

The three-guard lineups, with all three of Avery, Isaiah and Marcus (at the 3) on the floor, have a DefRtg of 115.2.  That's 5 points worse than the C's overall.   And it's got just a 110.7 offensive rating.

The two-guard combo of Isaiah & Avery (with neither Marcus nor Terry) on the floor immediately improves to 111.7 on defense and an offensive rating of 116.6.

That's a net swing of +9.4 points per 100 possessions!!!

The two guard combo of Isaiah and Marcus (with neither Avery nor Terry) on the floor doesn't do as well defensively, with DRtg of 116.6, but it at last more than makes up for it offensively with a 121.8 ORtg.   Again, that's a +9.7 net improvement over the 3-guard sample!!

Brad:  Stop it.  Please.  You are killing me.  NO MORE 3-GUARD!!!!

Amen, brother.

What kills me is that Brad hails himself as an analytics guy, yet he continues to go to those small-ball lineups, especially the three guard lineup, that are just terrible by the numbers. And replacing AB with Rozier just makes it worse, so it's just baffling why he continues to do these things.

Offline TrueFan

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Well, playing small ball when you have personnels for big lineup won't get you rebounds.

Seriously.  I posted the following in the 'Horford and KO - heating up' thread, but it seems appropriate here:
Quote
And so ... in the Knicks game, Stevens promptly plays Olynyk just 12 minutes, and notably, no time overlapping with Horford.

In a game where we could have used some size for rebounding, KO played only 12 minutes (barely enough time to get warmed up) and Amir for just 18.

Amir actually played very well in this game, scoring 10 and grabbing 7 rebounds in that short time.  That's a 20/14 per 36 pace.   And then he got essentially no run at all after midway through the third.   Just one minute in the 4th, as NYK pulled away.

I'm more than a little puzzled as to what Brad's strategy here was.


I mean, come on, Brad.  You are the one who keeps putting the three-guard lineups out there WHEN THEY ARE MEASURABLY HORRIBLE!

Sorry for shouting.

The three-guard lineups, with all three of Avery, Isaiah and Marcus (at the 3) on the floor, have a DefRtg of 115.2.  That's 5 points worse than the C's overall.   And it's got just a 110.7 offensive rating.

The two-guard combo of Isaiah & Avery (with neither Marcus nor Terry) on the floor immediately improves to 111.7 on defense and an offensive rating of 116.6.

That's a net swing of +9.4 points per 100 possessions!!!

The two guard combo of Isaiah and Marcus (with neither Avery nor Terry) on the floor doesn't do as well defensively, with DRtg of 116.6, but it at last more than makes up for it offensively with a 121.8 ORtg.   Again, that's a +9.7 net improvement over the 3-guard sample!!

Brad:  Stop it.  Please.  You are killing me.  NO MORE 3-GUARD!!!!

Amen, brother.

What kills me is that Brad hails himself as an analytics guy, yet he continues to go to those small-ball lineups, especially the three guard lineup, that are just terrible by the numbers. And replacing AB with Rozier just makes it worse, so it's just baffling why he continues to do these things.
IT and AB aren't going to see their minutes rolled back so that would mean less minutes for Smart who is better then some of our taller players. So unless you want to play a player less skilled then Smart at the end of the halves then you have to be ok with the rotations. Maybe next year Brown will be ready and take those minutes from Smart so we can get away from those smallish lineups but at this point our most skilled players are the guards so we are forced to play these lineups. Hard to blame Brad for that unless you think Smart isn't a better option then Jerebko or Olynyk down the stretch.

Offline mctyson

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Best rebounder from last year is in TOR and was replaced by a weaker rebounder in AH.
Horfords superior defense should make up for that.

I think this is where people are wrong.  Horford is a superior individual defender and shot blocker.  Sullinger was an excellent team defender last year, as I believe him and AB held opponents to the lowest points-per-possession on pick-and-rolls in the entire league.

Add in that Sully was a top 20 defensive rebounder, and you can see where the dropoff has come from.  (Note - I am not blaming Horford)

Offline Big333223

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All true.

And the rebounding is a bid deal because it's usually easier to score on a second chance possessions when the defense isn't set and the ball often starts very close to the basket. It's all connected.

Ainge really needs to make a deal before the deadline.
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Offline Tr1boy

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Cbs sounds foolish

There is a limit of how good this lineup can be on the defensive end

Without someone that can rebound/protect the rim on a consistent basis , no team can be great in this league

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Offline mmmmm

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Well, playing small ball when you have personnels for big lineup won't get you rebounds.

Seriously.  I posted the following in the 'Horford and KO - heating up' thread, but it seems appropriate here:
Quote
And so ... in the Knicks game, Stevens promptly plays Olynyk just 12 minutes, and notably, no time overlapping with Horford.

In a game where we could have used some size for rebounding, KO played only 12 minutes (barely enough time to get warmed up) and Amir for just 18.

Amir actually played very well in this game, scoring 10 and grabbing 7 rebounds in that short time.  That's a 20/14 per 36 pace.   And then he got essentially no run at all after midway through the third.   Just one minute in the 4th, as NYK pulled away.

I'm more than a little puzzled as to what Brad's strategy here was.


I mean, come on, Brad.  You are the one who keeps putting the three-guard lineups out there WHEN THEY ARE MEASURABLY HORRIBLE!

Sorry for shouting.

The three-guard lineups, with all three of Avery, Isaiah and Marcus (at the 3) on the floor, have a DefRtg of 115.2.  That's 5 points worse than the C's overall.   And it's got just a 110.7 offensive rating.

The two-guard combo of Isaiah & Avery (with neither Marcus nor Terry) on the floor immediately improves to 111.7 on defense and an offensive rating of 116.6.

That's a net swing of +9.4 points per 100 possessions!!!

The two guard combo of Isaiah and Marcus (with neither Avery nor Terry) on the floor doesn't do as well defensively, with DRtg of 116.6, but it at last more than makes up for it offensively with a 121.8 ORtg.   Again, that's a +9.7 net improvement over the 3-guard sample!!

Brad:  Stop it.  Please.  You are killing me.  NO MORE 3-GUARD!!!!

Amen, brother.

What kills me is that Brad hails himself as an analytics guy, yet he continues to go to those small-ball lineups, especially the three guard lineup, that are just terrible by the numbers. And replacing AB with Rozier just makes it worse, so it's just baffling why he continues to do these things.
IT and AB aren't going to see their minutes rolled back so that would mean less minutes for Smart who is better then some of our taller players. So unless you want to play a player less skilled then Smart at the end of the halves then you have to be ok with the rotations. Maybe next year Brown will be ready and take those minutes from Smart so we can get away from those smallish lineups but at this point our most skilled players are the guards so we are forced to play these lineups. Hard to blame Brad for that unless you think Smart isn't a better option then Jerebko or Olynyk down the stretch.

Smart being "more skilled" than our taller players doesn't make our 5-man units better when he replaces one of them.

And let's be very clear:  Playing Marcus at the 3 isn't taking minutes away from just Jaylen, Jonas and Gerald.  It is also (actually primarily) taking minutes from Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson.   Because when Marcus is at the 3 and Jae is sliding over to the 4, they are the ones put on the bench.

And frankly, imho, both Kelly and Amir are better overall basketball players at this point in time than Marcus.  They certainly are better overall at playing the 4 & 5 than Marcus is at playing the 3.

The scoreboard would tend to support that opinion.

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Offline RockinRyA

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Well, playing small ball when you have personnels for big lineup won't get you rebounds.

Seriously.  I posted the following in the 'Horford and KO - heating up' thread, but it seems appropriate here:
Quote
And so ... in the Knicks game, Stevens promptly plays Olynyk just 12 minutes, and notably, no time overlapping with Horford.

In a game where we could have used some size for rebounding, KO played only 12 minutes (barely enough time to get warmed up) and Amir for just 18.

Amir actually played very well in this game, scoring 10 and grabbing 7 rebounds in that short time.  That's a 20/14 per 36 pace.   And then he got essentially no run at all after midway through the third.   Just one minute in the 4th, as NYK pulled away.

I'm more than a little puzzled as to what Brad's strategy here was.


I mean, come on, Brad.  You are the one who keeps putting the three-guard lineups out there WHEN THEY ARE MEASURABLY HORRIBLE!

Sorry for shouting.

The three-guard lineups, with all three of Avery, Isaiah and Marcus (at the 3) on the floor, have a DefRtg of 115.2.  That's 5 points worse than the C's overall.   And it's got just a 110.7 offensive rating.

The two-guard combo of Isaiah & Avery (with neither Marcus nor Terry) on the floor immediately improves to 111.7 on defense and an offensive rating of 116.6.

That's a net swing of +9.4 points per 100 possessions!!!

The two guard combo of Isaiah and Marcus (with neither Avery nor Terry) on the floor doesn't do as well defensively, with DRtg of 116.6, but it at last more than makes up for it offensively with a 121.8 ORtg.   Again, that's a +9.7 net improvement over the 3-guard sample!!

Brad:  Stop it.  Please.  You are killing me.  NO MORE 3-GUARD!!!!

Amen, brother.

What kills me is that Brad hails himself as an analytics guy, yet he continues to go to those small-ball lineups, especially the three guard lineup, that are just terrible by the numbers. And replacing AB with Rozier just makes it worse, so it's just baffling why he continues to do these things.
IT and AB aren't going to see their minutes rolled back so that would mean less minutes for Smart who is better then some of our taller players. So unless you want to play a player less skilled then Smart at the end of the halves then you have to be ok with the rotations. Maybe next year Brown will be ready and take those minutes from Smart so we can get away from those smallish lineups but at this point our most skilled players are the guards so we are forced to play these lineups. Hard to blame Brad for that unless you think Smart isn't a better option then Jerebko or Olynyk down the stretch.

Smart being "more skilled" than our taller players doesn't make our 5-man units better when he replaces one of them.

And let's be very clear:  Playing Marcus at the 3 isn't taking minutes away from just Jaylen, Jonas and Gerald.  It is also (actually primarily) taking minutes from Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson.   Because when Marcus is at the 3 and Jae is sliding over to the 4, they are the ones put on the bench.

And frankly, imho, both Kelly and Amir are better overall basketball players at this point in time than Marcus.  They certainly are better overall at playing the 4 & 5 than Marcus is at playing the 3.

The scoreboard would tend to support that opinion.

While I agree, I feel like Stevens puts out that lineup because that's his most trusted guys. Not most trusted unit but individually.

If only Thomas transforms into Smart once he releases his shot we'd have no problem.

Offline flybono

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Soon, Indiana will be calling and then and maybe then will Ainge bring back Thibideau who should have been the successor to Rivers in the first place

Offline Bobshot

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Their defensive strength is in their backcourt. They'll never be "good enough defensively" until they get some rebounding and toughness up front.

Offline Bobshot

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Soon, Indiana will be calling and then and maybe then will Ainge bring back Thibideau who should have been the successor to Rivers in the first place

You get a tommy point for that one. Tibs should have replaced Rivers.