Author Topic: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?  (Read 11955 times)

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Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2017, 11:34:39 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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It seems that most people just haven't seen Jokic play. That's to be expected since he plays in such a small market. However, what's happening with him is pretty special. At the beginning of the year Malone was making mistake by starting Jokic alongside Nurkic. This created spacing issues and the results weren't great. However, now that Malone has come to his senses, with Nurkic barely playing, the results have been spectacular.

Brace yourselves, these are Jokic's numbers for the month of January:

PPG 23.2
RPG 11.0
APG 4.8
MPG 30.0 (still low)

FG% 61.1
FT% 82.1
3PT% 42.9


Note: I do like Nurkic a lot, but he's just not good enough to get minutes at Jokic's expense.

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2017, 11:52:21 AM »

Offline saltlover

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It seems that most people just haven't seen Jokic play. That's to be expected since he plays in such a small market. However, what's happening with him is pretty special. At the beginning of the year Malone was making mistake by starting Jokic alongside Nurkic. This created spacing issues and the results weren't great. However, now that Malone has come to his senses, with Nurkic barely playing, the results have been spectacular.

Brace yourselves, these are Jokic's numbers for the month of January:

PPG 23.2
RPG 11.0
APG 4.8
MPG 30.0 (still low)

FG% 61.1
FT% 82.1
3PT% 42.9


Note: I do like Nurkic a lot, but he's just not good enough to get minutes at Jokic's expense.

On the other hand, the Nuggets have one of the worst defenses in the NBA, including the third-worst opponent 2-point%, and I have a tough time believing their starting center is blameless. 

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2017, 12:03:03 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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It seems that most people just haven't seen Jokic play. That's to be expected since he plays in such a small market. However, what's happening with him is pretty special. At the beginning of the year Malone was making mistake by starting Jokic alongside Nurkic. This created spacing issues and the results weren't great. However, now that Malone has come to his senses, with Nurkic barely playing, the results have been spectacular.

Brace yourselves, these are Jokic's numbers for the month of January:

PPG 23.2
RPG 11.0
APG 4.8
MPG 30.0 (still low)

FG% 61.1
FT% 82.1
3PT% 42.9


Note: I do like Nurkic a lot, but he's just not good enough to get minutes at Jokic's expense.

On the other hand, the Nuggets have one of the worst defenses in the NBA, including the third-worst opponent 2-point%, and I have a tough time believing their starting center is blameless.

He definitely deserves blame. He's not a great defensive player, but he's not Kanter or Okafor either. He's firmly average in this area and needs to do a better job of being in better defensive positions to not pick up cheap fouls.

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2017, 12:06:36 PM »

Offline seancally

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We can also point out that Brad Stevens would probably salivate at the thought of using such a creative, skilled, passing big as the focal point of his offense.

I love the PGs on the board at the top of the draft, but that's also a really saturated position. I would rather have a player like Jokic - of which there are few in the league - than a stud at PG. We have a stud at PG and we have excellent PG defenders around him.

I think Denver says no even just to BKN for Jokic straight-up. Plus, they may feel that the Mudiay/Murray combo is their future at the 1/2 spot.
"The game honors toughness." - President Stevens

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2017, 12:10:43 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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It seems that most people just haven't seen Jokic play. That's to be expected since he plays in such a small market. However, what's happening with him is pretty special. At the beginning of the year Malone was making mistake by starting Jokic alongside Nurkic. This created spacing issues and the results weren't great. However, now that Malone has come to his senses, with Nurkic barely playing, the results have been spectacular.

Brace yourselves, these are Jokic's numbers for the month of January:

PPG 23.2
RPG 11.0
APG 4.8
MPG 30.0 (still low)

FG% 61.1
FT% 82.1
3PT% 42.9


Note: I do like Nurkic a lot, but he's just not good enough to get minutes at Jokic's expense.

On the other hand, the Nuggets have one of the worst defenses in the NBA, including the third-worst opponent 2-point%, and I have a tough time believing their starting center is blameless.

Salt, to add to my above post, here is a numbers based writeup from NBA.com.

Quote
Denver has been outscored by 118 points this season, but is a plus-40 with Jokic on the floor. The biggest difference has been on offense, where the Nuggets have scored 110.0 points per 100 possessions (a rate which would rank fifth in the league) with Jokic on the floor and just 102.4 (a rate which would rank 21st) with him on the bench.

Among 206 players who have taken at least 200 shots this season, Jokic ranks sixth in effective field goal percentage (60.8 percent) and fourth in true shooting percentage (64.4 percent). He's the Nuggets' most efficient scorer.

He's also one of their best passers. Among their rotation players, only Jameer Nelson (30.0 percent) has assisted on a higher percentage of his possessions than Jokic (24.1 percent). Jokic has a higher usage rate and a lower turnover rate than Nelson, and the Nuggets have assisted on a much higher percentage of their baskets with Jokic on the floor (63.0 percent) than they have with him on the bench (54.7 percent).

Defense is an issue, though. The Nuggets have been better defensively with Jokic on the floor, but have still allowed 109.0 points per 100 possessions in those minutes.

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2017, 12:21:25 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Let's talk money.

Are you keeping Gallo next season?  How much do you intend to pay him?  Or do you think he just stays for his players option?  Are you keeping Olynyk?  In terms of Gallo and Olynyk, how much are they going to have in salary for the 2018-2019 season?

That last question matters, because now you have IT, Bradley, and Smart hitting free agency, and you have a decision to make on Jokic.  You can decline his option and make him a restricted free agent, or you can keep him at his low salary for another year and hope that he doesn't leave you in unrestricted free agency.  Since we've traded the Brooklyn pick for Jokic, he's getting the max.  IT is getting the max.  If we've kept Gallo and Olynyk, along with Horford and some other salaries (Crowder and Brown) we're probably well into luxury tax territory before even talking about Smart and Bradley.

Accordingly, if you're going to let Gallo walk next summer, he shouldn't be in the deal.  And then it's a straight up Brooklyn pick for Jokic trade.  If you're going to let Olynyk walk because you're keeping Gallo, he should be in the deal with a lesser pick.  Signing both of those guys next summer is going to cause a lot of pain in 2018.

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2017, 12:51:11 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Let's talk money.

Are you keeping Gallo next season?  How much do you intend to pay him?  Or do you think he just stays for his players option?  Are you keeping Olynyk?  In terms of Gallo and Olynyk, how much are they going to have in salary for the 2018-2019 season?

That last question matters, because now you have IT, Bradley, and Smart hitting free agency, and you have a decision to make on Jokic.  You can decline his option and make him a restricted free agent, or you can keep him at his low salary for another year and hope that he doesn't leave you in unrestricted free agency.  Since we've traded the Brooklyn pick for Jokic, he's getting the max.  IT is getting the max.  If we've kept Gallo and Olynyk, along with Horford and some other salaries (Crowder and Brown) we're probably well into luxury tax territory before even talking about Smart and Bradley.

Accordingly, if you're going to let Gallo walk next summer, he shouldn't be in the deal.  And then it's a straight up Brooklyn pick for Jokic trade.  If you're going to let Olynyk walk because you're keeping Gallo, he should be in the deal with a lesser pick.  Signing both of those guys next summer is going to cause a lot of pain in 2018.

The prize of the deal is Jokic. I also like the fact that his salary, at least for the next 2 seasons, would be significantly less than that of the #1 pick. Those savings could be plentiful in giving Hayward the max.

As for Gallo, I would be perfectly fine in letting him walk. I do think he could really help us out the rest of this season. However, him getting minutes at the 3, along with Crowder already in place, would potentially stunt Brown's growth. The investment in Brown is too great to risk it on Gallo.

Hayward can play either the 2 or 3 spot and I really like him at the 2. Like DeRozan, who has a big size advantage over the majority of 2's, Hayward can really take advantage of his defenders there. At the same time, this would appease Crowder. So, yes, in this scenario I would have us trading away Bradley in needed.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 12:58:58 PM by Eddie20 »

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2017, 01:40:09 PM »

Offline saltlover

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Let's talk money.

Are you keeping Gallo next season?  How much do you intend to pay him?  Or do you think he just stays for his players option?  Are you keeping Olynyk?  In terms of Gallo and Olynyk, how much are they going to have in salary for the 2018-2019 season?

That last question matters, because now you have IT, Bradley, and Smart hitting free agency, and you have a decision to make on Jokic.  You can decline his option and make him a restricted free agent, or you can keep him at his low salary for another year and hope that he doesn't leave you in unrestricted free agency.  Since we've traded the Brooklyn pick for Jokic, he's getting the max.  IT is getting the max.  If we've kept Gallo and Olynyk, along with Horford and some other salaries (Crowder and Brown) we're probably well into luxury tax territory before even talking about Smart and Bradley.

Accordingly, if you're going to let Gallo walk next summer, he shouldn't be in the deal.  And then it's a straight up Brooklyn pick for Jokic trade.  If you're going to let Olynyk walk because you're keeping Gallo, he should be in the deal with a lesser pick.  Signing both of those guys next summer is going to cause a lot of pain in 2018.

The prize of the deal is Jokic. I also like the fact that his salary, at least for the next 2 seasons, would be significantly less than that of the #1 pick. Those savings could be plentiful in giving Hayward the max.

As for Gallo, I would be perfectly fine in letting him walk. I do think he could really help us out the rest of this season. However, him getting minutes at the 3, along with Crowder already in place, would potentially stunt Brown's growth. The investment in Brown is too great to risk it on Gallo.

Hayward can play either the 2 or 3 spot and I really like him at the 2. Like DeRozan, who has a big size advantage over the majority of 2's, Hayward can really take advantage of his defenders there. At the same time, this would appease Crowder. So, yes, in this scenario I would have us trading away Bradley in needed.

I understand what the prize is.  What I'm saying is that the money is trickier than you're giving it credit for.  You're giving up the potential #1 pick in the draft for Jokic -- you can either make him a restricted free agent in 2018 and max him then, or wait until 2019 when he's an unrestricted free agent.  He's a savings next year over the pick, but that savings is short-lived.

Let's take your plan of getting Hayward in July, and either trading Bradley or letting him walk (I vote the latter, because he's a good player and would provide injury insurance in 2017 for either Hayward or Crowder, since Hayward could slide to the 3 in such a scenario.)

In 2018, if you make Jokic a restricted free agent and max him, and max IT, you would have $128.5 million committed to just 6 players -- Horford, Hayward, Jokic, IT, Crowder, and Brown.  The luxury tax is forecast to be $129 million.  We haven't talked about Smart yet, and we've assumed Bradley is going.  Then there's the 2018 Brooklyn pick, Zizic, Yab, and Rozier.  None are that expensive -- collectively it's about $12 million.  But it's very easy to see the teams salary hitting at least $154 million if you keep Smart.  That'd be a luxury tax bill in excess of $63 million for a single season.

So instead you could not pay Jokic in 2018.  There'd likely be a small luxury tax bill, but it'd be manageable, and you could keep Smart.  But you're just kicking the can down the road, because Jokic is getting paid in 2019, and none of the above players are coming off the books.  Or Jokic decides to leave because he's mad he played for an extra season at the minimum salary when you could have made him a free agent.

So you could make the trade, but you'd have your desired team for at most a season and a half before it started to become prohibitively expensive and losing key pieces, and maybe several.  Do you think you're winning a title this year with that team? Next? You have to be really confident that you are, and I'm frankly not.  I'm confident it would be better, but not better enough.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 03:03:58 PM by saltlover »

Re: Trade: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2017, 02:48:37 PM »

Offline bigal534

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Jokic has more value than BK17

Sorry but this is 100% false. Like not even close.

So basically you are saying if Jokic was in the draft he would be by far and away the #1 draft prospect?

Not even close bud

Not false at all.

Denver wouldn't trade Jokic for both Nets picks right now.

Ok you lost all respect homie lol

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2017, 02:58:33 PM »

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Zizic > Jokic  8)

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Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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It seems that most people just haven't seen Jokic play. That's to be expected since he plays in such a small market. However, what's happening with him is pretty special. At the beginning of the year Malone was making mistake by starting Jokic alongside Nurkic. This created spacing issues and the results weren't great. However, now that Malone has come to his senses, with Nurkic barely playing, the results have been spectacular.

Brace yourselves, these are Jokic's numbers for the month of January:

PPG 23.2
RPG 11.0
APG 4.8
MPG 30.0 (still low)

FG% 61.1
FT% 82.1
3PT% 42.9


Note: I do like Nurkic a lot, but he's just not good enough to get minutes at Jokic's expense.

Do you think Jokic is a top 10 player right now? Do you think he has the potential to be the NBA MVP?

If not, I'm taking Fultz if I'm DA sitting there with the first pick.

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2017, 03:36:05 PM »

Offline Monkhouse

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Let's talk money.

Are you keeping Gallo next season?  How much do you intend to pay him?  Or do you think he just stays for his players option?  Are you keeping Olynyk?  In terms of Gallo and Olynyk, how much are they going to have in salary for the 2018-2019 season?

That last question matters, because now you have IT, Bradley, and Smart hitting free agency, and you have a decision to make on Jokic.  You can decline his option and make him a restricted free agent, or you can keep him at his low salary for another year and hope that he doesn't leave you in unrestricted free agency.  Since we've traded the Brooklyn pick for Jokic, he's getting the max.  IT is getting the max.  If we've kept Gallo and Olynyk, along with Horford and some other salaries (Crowder and Brown) we're probably well into luxury tax territory before even talking about Smart and Bradley.

Accordingly, if you're going to let Gallo walk next summer, he shouldn't be in the deal.  And then it's a straight up Brooklyn pick for Jokic trade.  If you're going to let Olynyk walk because you're keeping Gallo, he should be in the deal with a lesser pick.  Signing both of those guys next summer is going to cause a lot of pain in 2018.

The prize of the deal is Jokic. I also like the fact that his salary, at least for the next 2 seasons, would be significantly less than that of the #1 pick. Those savings could be plentiful in giving Hayward the max.

As for Gallo, I would be perfectly fine in letting him walk. I do think he could really help us out the rest of this season. However, him getting minutes at the 3, along with Crowder already in place, would potentially stunt Brown's growth. The investment in Brown is too great to risk it on Gallo.

Hayward can play either the 2 or 3 spot and I really like him at the 2. Like DeRozan, who has a big size advantage over the majority of 2's, Hayward can really take advantage of his defenders there. At the same time, this would appease Crowder. So, yes, in this scenario I would have us trading away Bradley in needed.

I understand what the prize is.  What I'm saying is that the money is trickier than you're giving it credit for.  You're giving up the potential #1 pick in the draft for Jokic -- you can either make him a restricted free agent in 2018 and max him then, or wait until 2019 when he's an unrestricted free agent.  He's a savings next year over the pick, but that savings is short-lived.

Let's take your plan of getting Hayward in July, and either trading Bradley or letting him walk (I vote the latter, because he's a good player and would provide injury insurance in 2017 for either Hayward or Crowder, since Hayward could slide to the 3 in such a scenario.)

In 2018, if you make Jokic a restricted free agent and max him, and max IT, you would have $128.5 million committed to just 6 players -- Horford, Hayward, Jokic, IT, Crowder, and Brown.  The luxury tax is forecast to be $129 million.  We haven't talked about Smart yet, and we've assumed Bradley is going.  Then there's the 2018 Brooklyn pick, Zizic, Yab, and Rozier.  None are that expensive -- collectively it's about $12 million.  But it's very easy to see the teams salary hitting at least $154 million if you keep Smart.  That'd be a luxury tax bill in excess of $63 million for a single season.

So instead you could not pay Jokic in 2018.  There'd likely be a small luxury tax bill, but it'd be manageable, and you could keep Smart.  But you're just kicking the can down the road, because Jokic is getting paid in 2019, and none of the above players are coming off the books.  Or Jokic decides to leave because he's mad he played for an extra season at the minimum salary when you could have made him a free agent.

So you could make the trade, but you'd have your desired team for at most a season and a half before it started to become prohibitively expensive and losing key pieces, and maybe several.  Do you think you're winning a title this year with that team? Next? You have to be really confident that you are, and I'm frankly not.  I'm confident it would be better, but not better enough.

And saltlover strikes again.

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Re: Trade: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2017, 03:40:51 PM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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no way Denver will trade now they found their gold.  A year ago, they may say yes.  And those that think Jokic isn't better than the nets pick, watch this kid play.  Fultz may be more athletic but he will never be as creative.

Clearly you haven't watch Fultz play

I have watched a couple and he is impressive, just he's not doing that against NBA talent rn
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 03:55:29 PM by GRADYCOLNON »

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2017, 03:48:56 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Let's talk money.

Are you keeping Gallo next season?  How much do you intend to pay him?  Or do you think he just stays for his players option?  Are you keeping Olynyk?  In terms of Gallo and Olynyk, how much are they going to have in salary for the 2018-2019 season?

That last question matters, because now you have IT, Bradley, and Smart hitting free agency, and you have a decision to make on Jokic.  You can decline his option and make him a restricted free agent, or you can keep him at his low salary for another year and hope that he doesn't leave you in unrestricted free agency.  Since we've traded the Brooklyn pick for Jokic, he's getting the max.  IT is getting the max.  If we've kept Gallo and Olynyk, along with Horford and some other salaries (Crowder and Brown) we're probably well into luxury tax territory before even talking about Smart and Bradley.

Accordingly, if you're going to let Gallo walk next summer, he shouldn't be in the deal.  And then it's a straight up Brooklyn pick for Jokic trade.  If you're going to let Olynyk walk because you're keeping Gallo, he should be in the deal with a lesser pick.  Signing both of those guys next summer is going to cause a lot of pain in 2018.

The prize of the deal is Jokic. I also like the fact that his salary, at least for the next 2 seasons, would be significantly less than that of the #1 pick. Those savings could be plentiful in giving Hayward the max.

As for Gallo, I would be perfectly fine in letting him walk. I do think he could really help us out the rest of this season. However, him getting minutes at the 3, along with Crowder already in place, would potentially stunt Brown's growth. The investment in Brown is too great to risk it on Gallo.

Hayward can play either the 2 or 3 spot and I really like him at the 2. Like DeRozan, who has a big size advantage over the majority of 2's, Hayward can really take advantage of his defenders there. At the same time, this would appease Crowder. So, yes, in this scenario I would have us trading away Bradley in needed.

I understand what the prize is.  What I'm saying is that the money is trickier than you're giving it credit for.  You're giving up the potential #1 pick in the draft for Jokic -- you can either make him a restricted free agent in 2018 and max him then, or wait until 2019 when he's an unrestricted free agent.  He's a savings next year over the pick, but that savings is short-lived.

Let's take your plan of getting Hayward in July, and either trading Bradley or letting him walk (I vote the latter, because he's a good player and would provide injury insurance in 2017 for either Hayward or Crowder, since Hayward could slide to the 3 in such a scenario.)

In 2018, if you make Jokic a restricted free agent and max him, and max IT, you would have $128.5 million committed to just 6 players -- Horford, Hayward, Jokic, IT, Crowder, and Brown.  The luxury tax is forecast to be $129 million.  We haven't talked about Smart yet, and we've assumed Bradley is going.  Then there's the 2018 Brooklyn pick, Zizic, Yab, and Rozier.  None are that expensive -- collectively it's about $12 million.  But it's very easy to see the teams salary hitting at least $154 million if you keep Smart.  That'd be a luxury tax bill in excess of $63 million for a single season.

So instead you could not pay Jokic in 2018.  There'd likely be a small luxury tax bill, but it'd be manageable, and you could keep Smart.  But you're just kicking the can down the road, because Jokic is getting paid in 2019, and none of the above players are coming off the books.  Or Jokic decides to leave because he's mad he played for an extra season at the minimum salary when you could have made him a free agent.

So you could make the trade, but you'd have your desired team for at most a season and a half before it started to become prohibitively expensive and losing key pieces, and maybe several.  Do you think you're winning a title this year with that team? Next? You have to be really confident that you are, and I'm frankly not.  I'm confident it would be better, but not better enough.

I would be onboard with the plan to pay Jokic in the summer of 2019. I strongly doubt he would walk away from the 5 year deal max we would be able to offer him. Especially when you consider he would be part of a championship contender. Yes, I do think that a team consisting of Horford, Crowder, Jokic, Thomas, and Hayward starting, with Smart, Brown, Zizic, Rozier, Yab, 2018 pick, etc. off the bench, would be title contenders. Particularly when you factor in the expected development of such a young roster.

As for the luxury tax, Wyc is on record in saying that he has no issue paying the tax bill on a title contender. I see no reason why that roster as hypothetically constituted would make him believe otherwise. During the 2019-20 season James will be 35 years old, so although it's hard to forecast with so much fluidity, I would wager we would be the favorite to come out of the east.

Re: Trade Idea: Jokic and Gallanari for Amir, Jonas, and Brooklyn #1 2017?
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2017, 04:47:48 PM »

Offline bigal534

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