Convince me Iverson was better than Isaiah J. Thomas on offense.

[LarBrd33]

I've long believed Iverson was overrated.  That dude was never efficient.  I always just saw him as someone who was super popular, because he was a super entertaining little guy that put up a lot of points in a flashy way. 

I don't want to bother getting into defense, because it's harder to measure that.   But can someone convince me how Allen Iverson was better than Isaiah J. Thomas on offense?... because I legitimately don't believe he was.

Main reason people think so fondly of Iverson is that the guy averaged as many as 33ppg in a season, but it's important to note that this is a guy who consistently averaged 42-43mpg and as many as 27.8 shots per game.   There were seasons when Iverson shot under 40% and pretty often shot under 30% from three.   That guy was a next-level ballhog.

I'm not even cherrypicking some random seasons and comparing IJT's best to AI's worst...  just look at their career numbers.  Obviously you NEED to adjust for minutes, because Iverson averaged an obscene 41.1mpg during the course of his career and that just doesn't happen in 2016.   The most any player averages these days is 37.4 and even a historically high usage ballhog like Russell Westbrook only averages 34.7mpg.   So it's kind of necessary to use per minute production:   

Allen Iverson Career Per-36:  23.3 points, 5.4 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 3.1 turnovers, with .425/.313/.780 shooting.

Isaiah J. Thomas Career Per-36:  22 points, 6.2 assists, 3.1 rebounds, 2.8 turnovers,  with 439/.364/.870 shooting

Across the board throughout his entire career Thomas has been a more efficient scorer.   

You can't talk about these two without acknowledging that Thomas has made a statistical leap this season.  So let's compare his season (so far) to Iverson's 2000-01 MVP season.

Allen Iverson 2000-01 MVP Per-36: 26.7 points, 3.9 assists, 3.3 rebounds, 2.9 turnovers, with .420/.320/.814 shooting

Isaiah J. Thomas 2016-17 Per 36:  29.9 points, 6.5 assists, 2.9 rebounds, 2.6 turnovers, with .455/.379/.907 shooting

Explain to me how Iverson was better offensive.  Now, to be fair, I understand that in Iverson's MVP season he actually put up averages of 31.1 points, 4.6 assists and 3.8 rebounds in 42mpg... compared to Thomas who is averaging 28.2 points, 6.2 assists, 2.7 steals in 8 less minutes per game.  Iverson in his MVP season took 25.5 shots per game compared to Thomas' 19.2... so there's a bit of a challenge comparing these guys because of the eras they played in.  And like I said up front, this is ignoring the fact that Iverson averaged 2.5 steals that game to Thomas 0.8... And though Iverson never made a 1st or 2nd Team All-Defense it's not fair to compare these two guys without acknowledging Thomas' massive defensive deficiencies...   But I'm genuinely asking... what was it about Iverson's offensive game that made him superior to what Thomas is doing now?   Help a long-time Iverson doubter understand what he's missing.

[moiso]

Thomas lacks the braided hair (which was new to the nba in Iverson's day) and the out of this world highlight athleticism I guess.  Thomas seems much more efficient to me.

[playdream]

Thomas is clearly better lol

[The Oracle]

If you bring Iverson forward into this era playing alongside high usage of the 3 point line, higher pace and most importantly great floor spacing big men like Horford and K.O. he would produce much better shooting numbers and TS%.  Iverson would also be coached away from high usage of the mid range game which would benefit his TS% a lot.

If you send I.T. back into the Iverson era playing alongside lane clogging big men, slower pace and much poorer use of the 3 point line I.T.'s Shooting numbers and TS% would drop dramatically.  His access to the hoop would be much more restricted and he could be more aggressively defended on the perimeter because of all the protection defenses had in the paint.

It is really hard to say who is better when one player (I.T.) is playing under much closer to ideal conditions to suit his game and the other (Iverson) was playing under what I would consider extremely poor conditions for most if not all of his best years.

[mr. dee]

If you bring Iverson forward into this era playing alongside high usage of the 3 point line, higher pace and most importantly great floor spacing big men like Horford and K.O. he would produce much better shooting numbers and TS%.  Iverson would also be coached away from high usage of the mid range game which would benefit his TS% a lot.

If you send I.T. back into the Iverson era playing alongside lane clogging big men, slower pace and much poorer use of the 3 point line I.T.'s Shooting numbers and TS% would drop dramatically.  His access to the hoop would be much more restricted and he could be more aggressively defended on the perimeter because of all the protection defenses had in the paint.

It is really hard to say who is better when one player (I.T.) is playing under much closer to ideal conditions to suit his game and the other (Iverson) was playing under what I would consider extremely poor conditions for most if not all of his best years.

A.I also played in the hand-check and pre-illegal defense era. Bigs can camp in the paint as long as they want.

[mgent]

Probably nobody can convince you with words.  You'd had to have watched Iverson play and know a fair amount about basketball.

First things first, we've gone over this ad nauseam in past IT vs Iverson threads, but: HANDCHECK! HANDCHECK! HANDCHECK!

Isaiah makes defenders pay for letting him get to the rim.

Iverson always made his own offense and hit significantly harder shots.

While Isaiah might be slightly more efficient because he goes to the rim a little more, everybody knows that when the game is on the line you have almost no chance of getting a good look at the rim (plus the refs let so much contact go on the last play).  You could clearly see he had no chance at the end of the Hawks game.  He had to take a long step-back pull-up, which is not his shot, and a type of shot he almost never takes.  It was an extremely difficult shot that he luckily made on that occasion, but nobody with half a brain thinks Brad called for Isaiah to do that.

Iverson made those types of shots multiple times per game.  You could actually draw that play for him (it was actually a lack of a play, but that's the point).

[Who]

Different league. Different rules. Much harder for guards to score back then.

Nowadays. No hand checking. More spaced out offenses so less big men in the paint. Much easier for guards to get to the basket.

All guards in today's league have seen their numbers & efficiency boosted by the rule changes.

You cannot compare stats from today's era to past eras. Different game now.

[Surferdad]

Their offensive styles are similar in that they both drive to the rim.  Thomas has a higher FG% (which is impressive given the number of 3-pointers he put up) and is a better distributor.  Thomas seems like the better offensive player.  I'm not sure Iverson was overrated but I admit he was a ball hog.

Iverson was the better defender.

[Redz]

I grew to admire Iverson, but I never really got over him carrying the ball every possession of his career.  Just an aesthetic thing for me.

[mctyson]

Help a long-time Iverson doubter understand what he's missing.

Can't really help you here.  Iverson was certainly a "cult hero" in basketball, much like IT4.  There were plenty of people that thought Iverson was not a great player while he was playing, for some of the reasons you cite.

[Celtics18]

I remember feeling like I wanted no part of a 5'9" gunner as our point guard of the future when we acquired Thomas.  He's changed my mind.  I am regularly awed by the things he does going up against guys more than a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier than him.

I was a big Iverson fan, and while I don't generally like these kinds of comparisons, there are some similarities between the two undersized, high volume shooters with tenacious attitudes.

Physically, Iverson was probably more explosive off the bounce, but Isaiah is much stronger.  I love how he uses his strength  to take on bigs in the air and move them backwards while staying on balance.

Isaiah is special.  It's been fun watching him turn into a next level star in Boston.

Better than Iverson?  I am still unsure of that one, but it's honorable company to be in.

[BE-Celtic]

In terms of numbers they might be close but it's a different era, so hard to say. But Iverson did send his team to NBA finals, where he had a legendary game 1. IT still needs to add a few lines to his story to show he doesn't just match Iverson in terms of numbers, imo.

[Bobshot]

Similar players. Both ball hogs. Both shoot outside and go to the basket. One RHd, the LHd probably principle difference. Both injury prone--from going to the basket.

Iverson has played longer. If IT can keep this up for another 5 years, he'll be a HOFer, too.

Both these guys advertised as PGs, but they often play(ed) as SGs.

Another difference: when Iverson missed a practice, the Philly media decided it was a big deal.

[Bobshot]

In terms of numbers they might be close but it's a different era, so hard to say. But Iverson did send his team to NBA finals, where he had a legendary game 1. IT still needs to add a few lines to his story to show he doesn't just match Iverson in terms of numbers, imo.

Yeah, playoffs another difference. The Celtics under Stevens have done nothing in the playoffs so far. But they've had to face the Cavs in the 1st round, and seem to be locked into that unless they can beat the Raptors for the East title.

[JOMVP]

Iverson single handedly brought the Sixers to the finals in a league that was far more defensively superior to this one. What he did on the offensive end during thay era, where defenders were able to play up on you more, more body contact, still an emphasis on bigs that just sat their butts in the lane, and little to no spacing on the floor still amazes me. Put prime Iverson in the league right now and he could average 40 a game. He was a very talented player that didnt get to play with much talent around him his entire career.